MANCHESTER - 6
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He was trying - quite understandably - to gloss over the BD route cuts by saying it's a shame, but the destinations they are cutting are still served by other airlines (true), with the exception of Antigua (true again), which was only served once a week (true yet again), as an additional leg on a BGI flight (wrong !!).
As we are all very much aware, ANU is served direct every Friday, while BGI is direct every Saturday and Monday.
Capiche ?.
As we are all very much aware, ANU is served direct every Friday, while BGI is direct every Saturday and Monday.
Capiche ?.
Pilot of the Airwaves
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You're quite right to point out my lack of experience in all things airline as I've only worked for them for the last 25 years of which the last 20 has been in Revenue Management.
Please don't preach your jaundiced views to me on airline senior management.
Please don't preach your jaundiced views to me on airline senior management.
...Oh, BTW,the sky is wall to wall blue here today.
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Shuttle Cancelations
"BA have no bloody choice but to axe the Shuttles to Heathrow"
"Your domestic passengers get home late"
"You can always get a train or drive"
The first two comments above come from Skipness One Echo, the third is from a posting by Tartin Tom.
Ladies/Gentlemen,
I understand that you speak from the point of view of an airline operator - in this case BA - as I often do myself. However, sometimes it is worth considering also the point of view of the CUSTOMERS (remember them?), as well as the company accountants.
So BA "have no bloody choice" but to cancel Shuttles at the first whiff of a problem, eh? Well that's fine. But the customers do have a choice. They can direct their business towards a carrier which is not notorious for canceling MAN connecting flights on a whim. Examples of more reliable alternative carriers have already been cited by other posters here. I have used alternatives to BA for quite some time now and have not been let down yet. That is a problem BA should take seriously as it is hitting their bottom line. But perhaps they think as you do ...
"Your domestic passengers get home late ..."
Not all domestic passengers are on their way home. Half are on outbound services, and many of those have onward connections. I recall that in August 2006 I turned up at MAN to fly to Miami via Chicago with American Airlines. Princess Cruises had suggested booking me MAN-LHR-MIA with BA; I said "In that case I suggest you quote me cruise only and I will book my own Transatlantic flights from Manchester." Princess relented and booked me via Chicago instead. On the day - guess what - yes, BA had cancelled all the Shuttles again! And there, huddled in a corner (BA and AA both use T3 at MAN) was a distraught tearful group of passengers with 'Princess' baggage labels just like mine. I never saw them again. I was one of 4 people from the Manchester flights who made it to the ship (and mine was a party of two). The gentleman and his wife who also made it to the ship asked me how I had ended up on the AA service and not BA like all the others. I told him that BA frequently cancelled shuttles and that I had refused to trust BA with a cruise departure at stake. He smiled and replied that he had also been let down by BA connections in the past and had refused to be booked with them.
Perhaps BA should remember that if they badly let down a customer once, that customer may NEVER be won back. I wonder how many of the customers in that tearful huddle I saw have booked another BA flight since then? But perhaps BA just don't care anyway. Passengers booked from the North West were unlikely to have been born within earshot of Bow Bells (now those are the folks who really count!). And besides, all Northerners are poor working class types with low wages who can't afford to pay higher yielding fares. That's right - isn't it? So why worry.
Going back to my own experience, I pitched up at LHR on 19th July 2003. WOW - all this has been going on so long (I've just looked up that date). BA had gone on strike, all flights to MAN cancelled. "We suggest you go back home, Sir!", they said. "I would very much like to", I replied, "I've booked you to fly me there."
On the 11th August 2005 I pitched up at LHR again (I really know how to pick 'em!). Oops - BA lightning strike - all flights to MAN cancelled! But this time I got home just afew minutes late (due to backed up BA aircraft with insufficient parking space blocking the taxiways). So how did I do it? Simple - I had learned my lesson from July 2003. I booked on BD592 !!! We customers have memories, you see, and we can use the benefit of experience to influence our future bookings. I am sure that the reservations staff at Princess Cruises were surprised when I rejected their proposed BA flights via LHR one year on. But was I wrong?
And next I must refer to Tartin Tom's comment, "You can always take a train or drive." Hmmm ... may I remind you about Christmas Eve 2006? (I could be a year adrift here, but I think it was '06). Yes, BA cancelled the MAN Shuttles again (yawn). Perhaps you recall the TV news coverage? You see, there is a problem with "you can always take the train". Several, actually. Walk-on fares Euston - Manchester are amongst the most expensive per mile in the world. And at Christmas that assumes there are any seats left anyway. And the trains knock off early on December 24th. And all the hire cars have already been snapped up (if you drive). So when that family of four (two young kids, pram, suitcases etc) arrive exhausted at LHR from Johannesburg to be told that their domestic connection is cancelled ("Because BA have no bloody choice but to axe the Shuttles" [Skipness]), perhaps Tartin and Skipness would like to be there. They could explain BA's point of view and discuss the customers' onward travel options with them! I would like to be there too - but I would stand some distance away!
You see, I too recognize that airlines can't run all the flights in adverse conditions, although conditions don't have to be very adverse in the case of some carriers! But the problem with BA is they have been known to cancel ALL the MAN Shuttles for a day. Would it not be preferable to spread the pain around a bit and operate, say two of the services to help the worst affected customers (those with no alternatives). Why not use a B744 or a B763 from another cancelled flight? They redeployed L1011's back in the days when BA still tried to get their customers home.
So yes, Skipness and Tartin. You continue to post BA's point of view. I do understand the airline decisions to which you refer. I do understand yield. I do understand scheduling complications (especially concerning LHR) in adverse conditions. But I also understand this. The customers pay the wages. The customers have a choice. The customer once let down will not easily be won back. Customer service in times of difficulty is paramount ("I suggest you go back home, Sir" doesn't cut it).
At MAN, customers have a choice of airlines. Many of them do NOT make a habit of canceling flights between MAN and their respective hubs on a regular basis. They have cultivated a reputation for reliability - customers appreciate that. Changing planes en-route is not a concern for many passengers, but being unable to reach their final destination is. BA must remember this. Times are getting tough. The easy-spend money from Canary Wharf and the City of London is drying up fast. If BA wants to fill it's aircraft, Cockneys and Inbound Markets alone may not be enough. Perhaps the shareholders may come to point out that offering a minimal service to the domestic market - and an unreliable one at that - means presenting 70% of the UK's catchment area to competitors (on a plate). It's your choice, BA, but it looks like you've already made it. Good luck.
SHED.
"Your domestic passengers get home late"
"You can always get a train or drive"
The first two comments above come from Skipness One Echo, the third is from a posting by Tartin Tom.
Ladies/Gentlemen,
I understand that you speak from the point of view of an airline operator - in this case BA - as I often do myself. However, sometimes it is worth considering also the point of view of the CUSTOMERS (remember them?), as well as the company accountants.
So BA "have no bloody choice" but to cancel Shuttles at the first whiff of a problem, eh? Well that's fine. But the customers do have a choice. They can direct their business towards a carrier which is not notorious for canceling MAN connecting flights on a whim. Examples of more reliable alternative carriers have already been cited by other posters here. I have used alternatives to BA for quite some time now and have not been let down yet. That is a problem BA should take seriously as it is hitting their bottom line. But perhaps they think as you do ...
"Your domestic passengers get home late ..."
Not all domestic passengers are on their way home. Half are on outbound services, and many of those have onward connections. I recall that in August 2006 I turned up at MAN to fly to Miami via Chicago with American Airlines. Princess Cruises had suggested booking me MAN-LHR-MIA with BA; I said "In that case I suggest you quote me cruise only and I will book my own Transatlantic flights from Manchester." Princess relented and booked me via Chicago instead. On the day - guess what - yes, BA had cancelled all the Shuttles again! And there, huddled in a corner (BA and AA both use T3 at MAN) was a distraught tearful group of passengers with 'Princess' baggage labels just like mine. I never saw them again. I was one of 4 people from the Manchester flights who made it to the ship (and mine was a party of two). The gentleman and his wife who also made it to the ship asked me how I had ended up on the AA service and not BA like all the others. I told him that BA frequently cancelled shuttles and that I had refused to trust BA with a cruise departure at stake. He smiled and replied that he had also been let down by BA connections in the past and had refused to be booked with them.
Perhaps BA should remember that if they badly let down a customer once, that customer may NEVER be won back. I wonder how many of the customers in that tearful huddle I saw have booked another BA flight since then? But perhaps BA just don't care anyway. Passengers booked from the North West were unlikely to have been born within earshot of Bow Bells (now those are the folks who really count!). And besides, all Northerners are poor working class types with low wages who can't afford to pay higher yielding fares. That's right - isn't it? So why worry.
Going back to my own experience, I pitched up at LHR on 19th July 2003. WOW - all this has been going on so long (I've just looked up that date). BA had gone on strike, all flights to MAN cancelled. "We suggest you go back home, Sir!", they said. "I would very much like to", I replied, "I've booked you to fly me there."
On the 11th August 2005 I pitched up at LHR again (I really know how to pick 'em!). Oops - BA lightning strike - all flights to MAN cancelled! But this time I got home just afew minutes late (due to backed up BA aircraft with insufficient parking space blocking the taxiways). So how did I do it? Simple - I had learned my lesson from July 2003. I booked on BD592 !!! We customers have memories, you see, and we can use the benefit of experience to influence our future bookings. I am sure that the reservations staff at Princess Cruises were surprised when I rejected their proposed BA flights via LHR one year on. But was I wrong?
And next I must refer to Tartin Tom's comment, "You can always take a train or drive." Hmmm ... may I remind you about Christmas Eve 2006? (I could be a year adrift here, but I think it was '06). Yes, BA cancelled the MAN Shuttles again (yawn). Perhaps you recall the TV news coverage? You see, there is a problem with "you can always take the train". Several, actually. Walk-on fares Euston - Manchester are amongst the most expensive per mile in the world. And at Christmas that assumes there are any seats left anyway. And the trains knock off early on December 24th. And all the hire cars have already been snapped up (if you drive). So when that family of four (two young kids, pram, suitcases etc) arrive exhausted at LHR from Johannesburg to be told that their domestic connection is cancelled ("Because BA have no bloody choice but to axe the Shuttles" [Skipness]), perhaps Tartin and Skipness would like to be there. They could explain BA's point of view and discuss the customers' onward travel options with them! I would like to be there too - but I would stand some distance away!
You see, I too recognize that airlines can't run all the flights in adverse conditions, although conditions don't have to be very adverse in the case of some carriers! But the problem with BA is they have been known to cancel ALL the MAN Shuttles for a day. Would it not be preferable to spread the pain around a bit and operate, say two of the services to help the worst affected customers (those with no alternatives). Why not use a B744 or a B763 from another cancelled flight? They redeployed L1011's back in the days when BA still tried to get their customers home.
So yes, Skipness and Tartin. You continue to post BA's point of view. I do understand the airline decisions to which you refer. I do understand yield. I do understand scheduling complications (especially concerning LHR) in adverse conditions. But I also understand this. The customers pay the wages. The customers have a choice. The customer once let down will not easily be won back. Customer service in times of difficulty is paramount ("I suggest you go back home, Sir" doesn't cut it).
At MAN, customers have a choice of airlines. Many of them do NOT make a habit of canceling flights between MAN and their respective hubs on a regular basis. They have cultivated a reputation for reliability - customers appreciate that. Changing planes en-route is not a concern for many passengers, but being unable to reach their final destination is. BA must remember this. Times are getting tough. The easy-spend money from Canary Wharf and the City of London is drying up fast. If BA wants to fill it's aircraft, Cockneys and Inbound Markets alone may not be enough. Perhaps the shareholders may come to point out that offering a minimal service to the domestic market - and an unreliable one at that - means presenting 70% of the UK's catchment area to competitors (on a plate). It's your choice, BA, but it looks like you've already made it. Good luck.
SHED.
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Ah - So Mr Tartin is a company bean counter with no axe to grind.
You have gone now - so you have no commercial interest to protect - I ask again -
If these planes were flying as full as they were - and yet you are adamant that they were loss makers, then justify your company leaving Manchester in long haul terms, by stating the loss that was being incurred.
The alternative is to concede my point that the company has decided to forego one profit making business to pursue another - and it is the regional clients that will suffer.
Me - I will do anything to avoid LHR, baggage losing, time wasting, changeovers - and management such as the one that Tartin aspires to is one that will attract the same customer rejection from much of the market
We do have a choice - and arrogant management style like that propounded by the sad "company men" on here will provoke it to their detriment - its just a shame that terms like customer service, or regional markets mean so little to those who can't see beyond the cluttered, unpleasant oversubscribed morass that is Heathrow
You have gone now - so you have no commercial interest to protect - I ask again -
If these planes were flying as full as they were - and yet you are adamant that they were loss makers, then justify your company leaving Manchester in long haul terms, by stating the loss that was being incurred.
The alternative is to concede my point that the company has decided to forego one profit making business to pursue another - and it is the regional clients that will suffer.
Me - I will do anything to avoid LHR, baggage losing, time wasting, changeovers - and management such as the one that Tartin aspires to is one that will attract the same customer rejection from much of the market
We do have a choice - and arrogant management style like that propounded by the sad "company men" on here will provoke it to their detriment - its just a shame that terms like customer service, or regional markets mean so little to those who can't see beyond the cluttered, unpleasant oversubscribed morass that is Heathrow
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Shed on a Pole
Got it in One. When Executive Card holders who work in the industry and go from a lowly blue through Silver to Gold and have amassed in excess of a million BA miles but then give that up due to the reason you outline that's a sign of a problem.
The way that the first flights to go are always the Manchester Shuttles and the way you are just expected to make your own way to Euston or find a hotel is one thing but it gets worse.
My initial solution was always to change flights if the forecast a day or so ahead was for cold or windy weather but then it simply got worse and even poor weather was no indicator of performance. The final straw came late one Friday night battling over the pennines in a rented fiesta as I ended up in Leeds......Money talks..
Got it in One. When Executive Card holders who work in the industry and go from a lowly blue through Silver to Gold and have amassed in excess of a million BA miles but then give that up due to the reason you outline that's a sign of a problem.
The way that the first flights to go are always the Manchester Shuttles and the way you are just expected to make your own way to Euston or find a hotel is one thing but it gets worse.
My initial solution was always to change flights if the forecast a day or so ahead was for cold or windy weather but then it simply got worse and even poor weather was no indicator of performance. The final straw came late one Friday night battling over the pennines in a rented fiesta as I ended up in Leeds......Money talks..
Shed on a Pole
One of the best postings I've seen on this subject for a long time. Your experiences closely mirror my own, which is probably why I have a lowly blue BA FF card and a platinum-for-life KLM one.
Manchester is not alone in suffering this way. I have spoken to others who travel from BFS/GLA/EDI/ABZ, and don't even get me started on the IOM.
Most businesses in the UK are run by beancounters these days. Service went out of the window years ago. Yes, BA can fill the front end of its flights from Canary Wharf, and the City (isn't that why Crossrail is being built?) and the meedja and 'celebrities' will always be happy to top up, so why bother with the rest of the UK?
Personally, I find the service on the foreign carriers superior to BA's anyway, and as many others have pointed out, LHR is just a hell-hole, whichever terminal you're using. Gatwick North is an overcrowded shopping mall.
One of the best postings I've seen on this subject for a long time. Your experiences closely mirror my own, which is probably why I have a lowly blue BA FF card and a platinum-for-life KLM one.
Manchester is not alone in suffering this way. I have spoken to others who travel from BFS/GLA/EDI/ABZ, and don't even get me started on the IOM.
Most businesses in the UK are run by beancounters these days. Service went out of the window years ago. Yes, BA can fill the front end of its flights from Canary Wharf, and the City (isn't that why Crossrail is being built?) and the meedja and 'celebrities' will always be happy to top up, so why bother with the rest of the UK?
Personally, I find the service on the foreign carriers superior to BA's anyway, and as many others have pointed out, LHR is just a hell-hole, whichever terminal you're using. Gatwick North is an overcrowded shopping mall.
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Why would Lufthansa build up Manchester as a UK Star Alliance hub when that's the intention for Terminal One at Heathrow?
I concur with you, the level of service on the Shuttles is pretty poor from MAN. I won't defend them for a minute as I know it's been a dreadful experience for many. As a Scot exiled in London, ( yes there is a MASSIVE need for Crossrail remember, Heathrow being a small part of it, the Central Line more so ) I am familiar with the problem I had two flights cancelled on me at an hours notice last year. One was a leisure jaunt to ZRH from LHR I re-booked and the other was a LHR Shuttle which these days has LGW and LCY options too. Ahh the grinding of teeth in the queue to see Aviance (!)
Now don't flame me as I am curious to know. Does anyone see a future for the BMI LHR service as I always saw it as a slot holder for a Lufthansa sale and the times I've been on it, it has had an Embraer's worth of passengers, often on an A319.
I concur with you, the level of service on the Shuttles is pretty poor from MAN. I won't defend them for a minute as I know it's been a dreadful experience for many. As a Scot exiled in London, ( yes there is a MASSIVE need for Crossrail remember, Heathrow being a small part of it, the Central Line more so ) I am familiar with the problem I had two flights cancelled on me at an hours notice last year. One was a leisure jaunt to ZRH from LHR I re-booked and the other was a LHR Shuttle which these days has LGW and LCY options too. Ahh the grinding of teeth in the queue to see Aviance (!)
Now don't flame me as I am curious to know. Does anyone see a future for the BMI LHR service as I always saw it as a slot holder for a Lufthansa sale and the times I've been on it, it has had an Embraer's worth of passengers, often on an A319.
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Shed on a Pole,
Your posting should be emblazoned in 6 foot high letters on the walls of Watersides inner chambers. Perhaps then they will start to dismantle some of those stupid and restrictive union agreements that prevent 747/777s that are otherwise idle being used in the circumstances described.
Your posting should be emblazoned in 6 foot high letters on the walls of Watersides inner chambers. Perhaps then they will start to dismantle some of those stupid and restrictive union agreements that prevent 747/777s that are otherwise idle being used in the circumstances described.
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Conversely why would they only want one UK hub? I'm sure that the development of LHR will come first, but given the pressures on space and slots there, they may think a little more laterally than BA seem capable of doing.
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Concur with the BA shuttle issues/avoid LHR at all costs.
Please don't forget Delta out of MAN when considering LH options. I was very suspicious of connecting on from Atlanta, but I have to say that I had a superb flight - excellent friendly, efficient service centered around a customer that did appear to matter. The changeover in Atlanta was straightforward (they've perfected it as the hub/spoke is how they operate) and the choice of connections basically opens up Americia, Carribean, Mex etc.
Thanks to these US carriers commitment to MAN, any Nortwest passanger, if prepared to changeover in a US hub, literally is connected anywhere state side.
I asked the Flight attendent about Atlanta - MAn loads and she said they were nearly always full.
Before I tried it, not an obvious choice but now I'd definitely use them again.
DH
Please don't forget Delta out of MAN when considering LH options. I was very suspicious of connecting on from Atlanta, but I have to say that I had a superb flight - excellent friendly, efficient service centered around a customer that did appear to matter. The changeover in Atlanta was straightforward (they've perfected it as the hub/spoke is how they operate) and the choice of connections basically opens up Americia, Carribean, Mex etc.
Thanks to these US carriers commitment to MAN, any Nortwest passanger, if prepared to changeover in a US hub, literally is connected anywhere state side.
I asked the Flight attendent about Atlanta - MAn loads and she said they were nearly always full.
Before I tried it, not an obvious choice but now I'd definitely use them again.
DH
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Hamburg28K
You asked on 4th November about the work at the end of pier B which, you feel has been going on for ages.
According to the AIP this work was originally due to be completed by the end of December 2008, however I do seem to recall that this particular stage of the work started later than scheduled and I have just seen that the new finishing date is 23rd May. Looks like it's a long job.
Out of interest the work on the Terminal 3 apron extension now shows a completion date of 14th January.
I hope this answers your question.
Regards
Scottie Dog
You asked on 4th November about the work at the end of pier B which, you feel has been going on for ages.
According to the AIP this work was originally due to be completed by the end of December 2008, however I do seem to recall that this particular stage of the work started later than scheduled and I have just seen that the new finishing date is 23rd May. Looks like it's a long job.
Out of interest the work on the Terminal 3 apron extension now shows a completion date of 14th January.
I hope this answers your question.
Regards
Scottie Dog