SilverJet (Merged 30/05)
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Why Luton?
I doubt very much if the folk flying on Silverjet will be arriving on First Capital Connect!
I guess the dozens and dozens of arriving executives at Luton in the many biz jets movements per day are doing so under duress?
I quote Epsilon minus.... "Why EGGW with it's awful reputation as a bucket and spade holiday launch point short runway and naf winter weather. There is no rail connection to the airport (don't tell me that parkway is the airport) and the M1 to J11 is always jammed."
So Stansted is not a bucket and spade airport?
Short runway! More than enough length to fly to New York in a 767 with 100 pax on board. Having flown from Luton direct to Orlando in such a beast albeit a -200 with 250 on board, runway length in this case is not an issue.
Naf winter weather. Agreed, thankfully a 767 can land/depart CAT3!
No rail connection. What.....Walking from the Heathrow Express terminus to your departure gate can be almost as far, trust me, I have done it!
M1 is now superbly reliable now the 'Specs' measuring equipment ensures a 40mph limit is enforced through the road works.
Epsilon, lets face it mate, Luton is number 1 for executive travellers flying in business jets, Silverjet is just an extension of this.
As for its long term survivability..............Styrian, volareweb.........
Now will the 'Flat Beds' fit a Buster girth?
I doubt very much if the folk flying on Silverjet will be arriving on First Capital Connect!
I guess the dozens and dozens of arriving executives at Luton in the many biz jets movements per day are doing so under duress?
I quote Epsilon minus.... "Why EGGW with it's awful reputation as a bucket and spade holiday launch point short runway and naf winter weather. There is no rail connection to the airport (don't tell me that parkway is the airport) and the M1 to J11 is always jammed."
So Stansted is not a bucket and spade airport?
Short runway! More than enough length to fly to New York in a 767 with 100 pax on board. Having flown from Luton direct to Orlando in such a beast albeit a -200 with 250 on board, runway length in this case is not an issue.
Naf winter weather. Agreed, thankfully a 767 can land/depart CAT3!
No rail connection. What.....Walking from the Heathrow Express terminus to your departure gate can be almost as far, trust me, I have done it!
M1 is now superbly reliable now the 'Specs' measuring equipment ensures a 40mph limit is enforced through the road works.
Epsilon, lets face it mate, Luton is number 1 for executive travellers flying in business jets, Silverjet is just an extension of this.
As for its long term survivability..............Styrian, volareweb.........
Now will the 'Flat Beds' fit a Buster girth?
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Wow, I've ruffled the feathers of the Lutoneers.
1) You can calibrate your ILS for CATIII as much as you want but if your not approved for autoland by the CAA it's CATI for you and that will mean cancellations or diversions during the lengthy LTN period of below limits weather.
2) Number one for high flyers - Lorraine Chase - I don't think so. If your a biz jet flying executive going to and from NYC your choice is:
Farnborough - good but short runway (may not suit the performance of your aircraft)
Heathrow - too expensive and I doubt whether you will get a slot (unless you're Blair or royalty)
Gatwick - won't have you
Stansted - How much do Harrods charge?
Luton - ? OK let's go there then.
3) Short runway at LTN and that's a fact 100 pax to NYC on a B767-200 no problem but what if you want to expand your business to destinations further a field - cant do it out of LTN and why would you want to loose your freight contribution??
4) M1 - free fowing traffic from the M25 - J11- what time guys 2200 - 0700 maybe. It's even jammed up during the weekend and as for 40 MPH I thought it was meant to be a motorway.
Luton is LCC and B & S and the second runway at STN will entrench this not open its doors to high revenue business. LTN is a bad choice for this proposed business and I reckon the AIM will endorse this.
EM
1) You can calibrate your ILS for CATIII as much as you want but if your not approved for autoland by the CAA it's CATI for you and that will mean cancellations or diversions during the lengthy LTN period of below limits weather.
2) Number one for high flyers - Lorraine Chase - I don't think so. If your a biz jet flying executive going to and from NYC your choice is:
Farnborough - good but short runway (may not suit the performance of your aircraft)
Heathrow - too expensive and I doubt whether you will get a slot (unless you're Blair or royalty)
Gatwick - won't have you
Stansted - How much do Harrods charge?
Luton - ? OK let's go there then.
3) Short runway at LTN and that's a fact 100 pax to NYC on a B767-200 no problem but what if you want to expand your business to destinations further a field - cant do it out of LTN and why would you want to loose your freight contribution??
4) M1 - free fowing traffic from the M25 - J11- what time guys 2200 - 0700 maybe. It's even jammed up during the weekend and as for 40 MPH I thought it was meant to be a motorway.
Luton is LCC and B & S and the second runway at STN will entrench this not open its doors to high revenue business. LTN is a bad choice for this proposed business and I reckon the AIM will endorse this.
EM
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Originally Posted by Epsilon minus
Short runway at LTN and that's a fact 100 pax to NYC on a B767-200 no problem but what if you want to expand your business to destinations further a field - cant do it out of LTN and why would you want to loose your freight contribution??
I don't dispute the wisdom of your points made on this subject, except in the area of 767-200 performance, where I believe, although less than sparkling, it may be slightly less limiting than you believe - I'm sure that somebody will correct me if wrong? The 767-200 is of course, Gods' Aircraft of choice, and for many good reasons (not that I'm biased in any way whatsoever!!!)
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TightSlot
Only if you are still firmly on the ground as you pass at speed the taxiway entry points to runway 26 or 08. I can remember years ago a Dan-Air 727 taking out the approach lights as it got airborne.
Luton has been described as being in the middle of the golden triangle while Stansted is only convenient for the local cereal farmers who don’t normally go to market in New York.
The real issue with Luton is the short-term problem of available stands which won’t be addressed for a couple of years. Silverjet have claimed that they intend to expand their fleet to 10 aircraft. That’s alright so long as they don’t all arrive at the same time.
Only if you are still firmly on the ground as you pass at speed the taxiway entry points to runway 26 or 08. I can remember years ago a Dan-Air 727 taking out the approach lights as it got airborne.
Luton is LCC and B & S and the second runway at STN will entrench this not open its doors to high revenue business. LTN is a bad choice for this proposed business and I reckon the AIM will endorse this.
EM
EM
Luton has been described as being in the middle of the golden triangle while Stansted is only convenient for the local cereal farmers who don’t normally go to market in New York.
The real issue with Luton is the short-term problem of available stands which won’t be addressed for a couple of years. Silverjet have claimed that they intend to expand their fleet to 10 aircraft. That’s alright so long as they don’t all arrive at the same time.
Last edited by LTNman; 10th May 2006 at 15:46.
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B767-200
TS
My wisdom may be slightly more sparkling than your choice of ink colour. On 10hr sectors westbound across the atlantic ex EGKK I've had to accept departures on 08 against the flow in order to get a few pounds of freight on board (w/c was less than ms5). I have no figures for EGGW mind you but with a runway of that length I would have thought it tight.
I will stick to my guns on this, for the future expansion of a long haul scheduled airline, Luton is not the ideal location.
LTnman
Your market knowledge of the hinterland surrounding STN is wrong. Cambridge, Norwich, City of London offer excellent business markets for the Atlantic traveller. You can get easier access to STN from Leicester by train than down the M1 to Luton and the city generates a lot of traffic all NYC bound.
By the way Silverjet shares float on the AIM this Friday.
EM
My wisdom may be slightly more sparkling than your choice of ink colour. On 10hr sectors westbound across the atlantic ex EGKK I've had to accept departures on 08 against the flow in order to get a few pounds of freight on board (w/c was less than ms5). I have no figures for EGGW mind you but with a runway of that length I would have thought it tight.
I will stick to my guns on this, for the future expansion of a long haul scheduled airline, Luton is not the ideal location.
LTnman
Luton has been described as being in the middle of the golden triangle while Stansted is only convenient for the local cereal farmers who don’t normally go to market in New York
By the way Silverjet shares float on the AIM this Friday.
EM
Epsilon,
Your attachment to Stansted is touching, but unrealistic.
The only reason there is a 20m pax airport in that part of Essex is because of Government interference in free markets. BAA have cross-subsidised STN for years, but LTN has had to stand alone, in the face of this competition.
Frankly, if you can remember Lorraine Chase, you're older than you look.
Why compare rail travel from Leicester to STN with road travel from Leicester to LTN? Midland Mainline offer Leicester - Luton Parkway in around an hour, an do it hourly. If driving, the M1 would be quicker and shorter than M1/A14/M11.
Silverjet have looked at UK catchment areas and seen that Luton is well placed for North and West London (i.e. the wealthier quarters), Bucks, Herts, Beds, Northants, and the rapidly developing M1 corridor from Watford through Milton Keynes towards Coventry and Leicester.
They obviously consider the runway suitable for B762 operations with 100 pax. Executive facilities exist (and when/if Easyland is vacated, could expand) and are well proven.
Where do I buy my shares?
Your attachment to Stansted is touching, but unrealistic.
The only reason there is a 20m pax airport in that part of Essex is because of Government interference in free markets. BAA have cross-subsidised STN for years, but LTN has had to stand alone, in the face of this competition.
Frankly, if you can remember Lorraine Chase, you're older than you look.
Why compare rail travel from Leicester to STN with road travel from Leicester to LTN? Midland Mainline offer Leicester - Luton Parkway in around an hour, an do it hourly. If driving, the M1 would be quicker and shorter than M1/A14/M11.
Silverjet have looked at UK catchment areas and seen that Luton is well placed for North and West London (i.e. the wealthier quarters), Bucks, Herts, Beds, Northants, and the rapidly developing M1 corridor from Watford through Milton Keynes towards Coventry and Leicester.
They obviously consider the runway suitable for B762 operations with 100 pax. Executive facilities exist (and when/if Easyland is vacated, could expand) and are well proven.
Where do I buy my shares?
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Originally Posted by Epsilon minus
TS
My wisdom may be slightly more sparkling than your choice of ink colour. On 10hr sectors westbound across the atlantic ex EGKK I've had to accept departures on 08 against the flow in order to get a few pounds of freight on board (w/c was less than ms5). I have no figures for EGGW mind you but with a runway of that length I would have thought it tight.
I will stick to my guns on this, for the future expansion of a long haul scheduled airline, Luton is not the ideal location.
My wisdom may be slightly more sparkling than your choice of ink colour. On 10hr sectors westbound across the atlantic ex EGKK I've had to accept departures on 08 against the flow in order to get a few pounds of freight on board (w/c was less than ms5). I have no figures for EGGW mind you but with a runway of that length I would have thought it tight.
I will stick to my guns on this, for the future expansion of a long haul scheduled airline, Luton is not the ideal location.
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Silverjet have looked at UK catchment areas and seen that Luton is well placed for North and West London (i.e. the wealthier quarters), Bucks, Herts, Beds, Northants, and the rapidly developing M1 corridor from Watford through Milton Keynes towards Coventry and Leicester.
They obviously consider the runway suitable for B762 operations with 100 pax. Executive facilities exist (and when/if Easyland is vacated, could expand) and are well proven.
They obviously consider the runway suitable for B762 operations with 100 pax. Executive facilities exist (and when/if Easyland is vacated, could expand) and are well proven.
We don't know each other do we ?
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Silverjet, a new all-business airline set to launch flights between Luton Airport and New York's Newark in late 2006/early 2007, has successfully raised £25.3 million from an initial public offering of shares. The fund raising exercise was so sucessful, the airline is reported to be already planning new routes.
A mixture of institutional and other investors have backed Silverjet's plans to operate twice-daily flights between the two airports on Boeing 767s fitted with 100 inclined flat-bed seats at average fares of £999. To keep fares low, silverjet plans to be ticketless, offer check-in by SMS and the web and will communicate with customers by email and text.
Silverjet's chief executive, Lawrence Hunt, says that business travellers want three main things: to get through the airport quickly, a flat bed seat and as low a fare as possible. 'Getting through the airport at Heathrow and Gatwick is becoming increasingly difficult,' he adds.
Hunt believes that flying from Luton is no disadvantage for an all-business service. 'Three million business travellers already use Luton and 57 percent of all private jets coming to London fly in and out of Luton,' he says. He added that the airport has more people in a two-hour catchment area than any other London airport.
The airline has reached an agreement with the airport to allow silverjet services to use the private aviation terminal, which will allow the latest check-in time or 30 minutes before departure. Hunt says Silverjet has already identified 30 routes that would suit the airline's business model and started the licensing process for three long-haul routes outside North America.
http://www.uk-airport-news.info/luto...ews-100506.htm
Note that Silverjet will be using Harrods and the south stands
A mixture of institutional and other investors have backed Silverjet's plans to operate twice-daily flights between the two airports on Boeing 767s fitted with 100 inclined flat-bed seats at average fares of £999. To keep fares low, silverjet plans to be ticketless, offer check-in by SMS and the web and will communicate with customers by email and text.
Silverjet's chief executive, Lawrence Hunt, says that business travellers want three main things: to get through the airport quickly, a flat bed seat and as low a fare as possible. 'Getting through the airport at Heathrow and Gatwick is becoming increasingly difficult,' he adds.
Hunt believes that flying from Luton is no disadvantage for an all-business service. 'Three million business travellers already use Luton and 57 percent of all private jets coming to London fly in and out of Luton,' he says. He added that the airport has more people in a two-hour catchment area than any other London airport.
The airline has reached an agreement with the airport to allow silverjet services to use the private aviation terminal, which will allow the latest check-in time or 30 minutes before departure. Hunt says Silverjet has already identified 30 routes that would suit the airline's business model and started the licensing process for three long-haul routes outside North America.
http://www.uk-airport-news.info/luto...ews-100506.htm
Note that Silverjet will be using Harrods and the south stands
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From the Times:
Passengers arriving by train at Luton Airport Parkway will be offered free three-minute transfers to the terminal.
The airline has already identified 30 routes that would suit the airline’s business model and started the licensing process for three long-haul routes outside North America.
Passengers arriving by train at Luton Airport Parkway will be offered free three-minute transfers to the terminal.
The airline has already identified 30 routes that would suit the airline’s business model and started the licensing process for three long-haul routes outside North America.
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Harrods terminal
The natural option for the service is Harrods.
The aircraft can fit on the stand, and access to R/W is perfect, I am only concerned at 100 flat bed passengers in the tiny terminal, which feels full with 15 or so.
Whats the current situation reference actual access to the terminal, for pax, I asume there will be a dedicated gate keeper to ease the flow.
Car parking off site is being squeezed, but should be managable.
The 50 drivers awaiting and the 50 drivers dropping will perhaps cause the most fun, where will they wait.
I wish Silverjet the best of luck, and hope to meet up on the ramp soon.
Bumz
The aircraft can fit on the stand, and access to R/W is perfect, I am only concerned at 100 flat bed passengers in the tiny terminal, which feels full with 15 or so.
Whats the current situation reference actual access to the terminal, for pax, I asume there will be a dedicated gate keeper to ease the flow.
Car parking off site is being squeezed, but should be managable.
The 50 drivers awaiting and the 50 drivers dropping will perhaps cause the most fun, where will they wait.
I wish Silverjet the best of luck, and hope to meet up on the ramp soon.
Bumz
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Luton is LCC and B & S
Corporate aviation uses Luton because unlike Biggin Hill, City, Farnborough, Gatwick, Heathrow, Northolt and Stansted it combines all of the following:
1. H24 operation (once the runway resurfacing has been completed)
2. No runway slot restrictions there for GA (as yet)
3. Cat 3b capable (if the operator's aircraft and/or crew are not, then it's their failure to get suitably equipped and approved, NOT the airport's...)
4. Minimal approach delays, most times
5. Protection of controlled airspace
6. Highly-rated corporate handling facilities.
As for being LCC, it may well be - but these days it's no more B & S than Gatwick or Stansted are in parts. Unless you believe that passengers take a B & S to most of the major European cities that are now served by scheduled carriers from Luton!!
FYI, because of its elevation and consequent obstruction environment, the take off distances (3240m) at Luton are virtually the same as Gatwick's (3250m 26L & 3311m 08R) and are actually longer than Stansted's (3048m) - the reason you couldn't always get your BAL 767-200 direct to for example, Orlando from Gatwick was the poor single-engine climb performance in certain weight/temperature combinations and the obstruction environment off 26L i.e. Russ Hill.
A 767-200 with around 100 souls on board is more than capable of meeting the required performance figures out of Luton, including the engine failure on take-off climb performance requirement.
As for obtaining Cat 3. approval, if the airline's management are serious about running a successful business, this will be one of their top priorities thereby ensuring reliability of operation.
Oh and BTW, the transit time quoted by BAA at Gatwick from the Airport Station to the North Terminal is 10 minutes ~ pretty much the same transit time from Luton Airport Parkway to the Luton terminal building (albeit, not so quick in the frequently heavy traffic that afflicts the place).
And why the hell would anyone choose to take the train from Leicester to Stansted (instead of driving) or drive from Leicester to Luton (unless they were masochists...) As has been said before, Midland Mainline do an hourly direct service to Luton from Leicester in around 50 minutes.
As for Lorraine Chase, who's she when she's at home...??
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CAP 493
Talking of facts I think you need to check your Runway distance for Luton.
All the others are much longer for now at least.Also different B767's have different performance depending on the engines . For example I know Britannia's B767-200's AA and AB were rocket ships compared to the other 200's when I was there as they had bigger motors.
Talking of facts I think you need to check your Runway distance for Luton.
All the others are much longer for now at least.Also different B767's have different performance depending on the engines . For example I know Britannia's B767-200's AA and AB were rocket ships compared to the other 200's when I was there as they had bigger motors.
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CAP493
I don't carry jeppesen manuals around with me but I do have an RAF en-route supplement dated 10 NOV 05. Here's what it says about runway lengths:
Gatwick 08R tora 10364 toda 10863 asda 10607 lda 9075
26L tora 10679 toda 11178 asda 10879 lda 9288
Luton 08 tora/asda/lda 7087 toda 10630
26 tora 7087 toda 10630 asda 7287 lda 6808
Stansted 05 tora/asda/lda 10000 toda 10951
23 tora/asda/lda 10000 toda 10879
So which of those three is the most limiting?
Taken from the government web site www.transportdirect.gov.uk.
Peak time journeys from - to the London Stock Exchange via car or train.
Luton car 1.41 54.5m train 1.54
Stansted car 1.21 train 1.10
Gatwick car 1.33 train 1.15
Not looking good for Luton is it. So why would Silverjet want to base a premium business class only airline that will have to compete head to head with the big boys at LGW and LHR ? Answer - the Foyle family.
Please check www.acl-uk.org with regards to slots at LTN. I think you will find you need them.
I don't carry jeppesen manuals around with me but I do have an RAF en-route supplement dated 10 NOV 05. Here's what it says about runway lengths:
Gatwick 08R tora 10364 toda 10863 asda 10607 lda 9075
26L tora 10679 toda 11178 asda 10879 lda 9288
Luton 08 tora/asda/lda 7087 toda 10630
26 tora 7087 toda 10630 asda 7287 lda 6808
Stansted 05 tora/asda/lda 10000 toda 10951
23 tora/asda/lda 10000 toda 10879
So which of those three is the most limiting?
Taken from the government web site www.transportdirect.gov.uk.
Peak time journeys from - to the London Stock Exchange via car or train.
Luton car 1.41 54.5m train 1.54
Stansted car 1.21 train 1.10
Gatwick car 1.33 train 1.15
Not looking good for Luton is it. So why would Silverjet want to base a premium business class only airline that will have to compete head to head with the big boys at LGW and LHR ? Answer - the Foyle family.
Let's get the facts straight.
Last edited by Epsilon minus; 16th May 2006 at 08:02.
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Originally Posted by Bumz_Rush
Yes Midland Mainlaine do stop at Luton on the way south, but do not stop on the way north to pick you up again....Logical or what.... Bumz
There seems to be an hourly service heading north to places like Derby.
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Originally Posted by Epsilon minus
So why would Silverjet want to base a premium business class only airline that will have to compete head to head with the big boys at LGW and LHR ? Answer - the Foyle family..
If it is, maybe shutting down Air Foyle/Heavylift and starting up SilverJet makes sense, but as for operating from LTN, not wise if they want to go long haul to other destinations, i.e Far East etc....