MANSTON -3
“To be clear, what is proposed involves a transfer of ALL the risk surrounding the CPO from Thanet District Council to RiverOak. If the CPO fails for some unforeseen reason we will have to meet all the legal costs. Similarly if the eventual price of the land is higher than expected, we will have to pay it.
I'd be a bit dubious about a business case based on air freight of perishable goods - the supermarkets are in a cost cutting mood (and make MOL look like a beginner) and are looking to replace as much imported stuff as possible with homegrown - there's millions going into horticulture (look at Thanetearth just down the road)
As you point out Planet Thanet has been very successful if taking a share of UK Market, another one or two operations like this and imports reduce even further.
Sadly I see no USP in Manston that is not elsewhere closer to where it is needed.
Andy Wilby's letter is very interesting & informative as regards Manston. It would seem that the Management there were pretty poor & more than contributed to its demise.
However, I've had intimate & deep experience of management at a few airports, & what Andy says is pretty much par for the course (if a little bit worse than in my experience). That is, managers running airports with very little practical experience, knowledge, ability & nous !
However, I've had intimate & deep experience of management at a few airports, & what Andy says is pretty much par for the course (if a little bit worse than in my experience). That is, managers running airports with very little practical experience, knowledge, ability & nous !
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Finding staff that critisise the management/owners of a business really is nothing unusual in that. They have a view of a large operation from their very limited view. Would you as a Tesco cashier for an opinion as to the correctness of the companies property investment strategy? I'm sure the ATC guys were great at moving a couple of planes a day around. Running an airport is a whole different ball game.
Real World Sanity
I've been VERY close to Senior Management ie involved in planning & strategic decisions/implementation on many occasions (particularly at one "successful airport"); & I can tell you that it was not a pretty sight & did not fill me with confidence in their skills including professional knowledge & understanding, marketing, knowledge of regulations, professional regulations & International Standards & Recommended Practices, staff relations, commercialism etc. etc. etc.
I know that there are two (or more) sides to every story, but I know who had the most professionalism in my experience - & it wasn't the Management ! It was more the Staff.
I appreciate that a "good" Management team does not, necessarily, need to know the details of everything that it is dealing with & obtains the necessary technical & professional advice from "the experts". But, getting it to listen to, understand, accept & implement decisions based on that advice was a VERY uphill struggle !
More or less everything (professional , regulatory & human resource-wise) had to be spelled out to them word by word. On some occasions only downright opposition & intransigence finally got the essential points through to them. But, it took an awful lot of effort.
I've been VERY close to Senior Management ie involved in planning & strategic decisions/implementation on many occasions (particularly at one "successful airport"); & I can tell you that it was not a pretty sight & did not fill me with confidence in their skills including professional knowledge & understanding, marketing, knowledge of regulations, professional regulations & International Standards & Recommended Practices, staff relations, commercialism etc. etc. etc.
I know that there are two (or more) sides to every story, but I know who had the most professionalism in my experience - & it wasn't the Management ! It was more the Staff.
I appreciate that a "good" Management team does not, necessarily, need to know the details of everything that it is dealing with & obtains the necessary technical & professional advice from "the experts". But, getting it to listen to, understand, accept & implement decisions based on that advice was a VERY uphill struggle !
More or less everything (professional , regulatory & human resource-wise) had to be spelled out to them word by word. On some occasions only downright opposition & intransigence finally got the essential points through to them. But, it took an awful lot of effort.
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KLM
From Andy Wilby, ex ATC at Manston: I was so irritated by the constant rumour about KLM "pulling out" of Manston that I wrote to my colleagues there to ask if they would put the matter straight. These two emails are from the MD of KLM Cityhopper:-
KLM SAY THEY WERE "STABBED IN THE BACK" BY MANSTON OWNERS.
From: Kreiken, EJ (SPLZA) - KLM
Subject: Re: KLM services from Manston
Date: Sunday, 26 October, 2014, 21:33
Dear Mr Wilby
Thank you for reply and kind and realistic words and you can use my response (in full) to put matters straight and in perspective as they really were at the time. Everytime we hear about Manston we feel the lost opportunity for the UK, the Kent region, local employment and our lost venture which did not get the time to materialise with a full summer season. Thank you once more for your professional controlller work guiding our aircraft and crews. The UK has to come to grips soon with her policy for regional airports and these airports (and e.g. amongst others our Klc operations) and airline connections are a vital lifeline for a modern economy and society as yours is. Hope is no strategy unfortunately. I wish, your family well to make ends meet, find new opportunities for emplyoyment and we are convinced that definitively destructing such a runway and location as Manston is in the long run not such a wise decision as understatement in the greater and continuously expanding London area as well as of a relatively booming South East England. Many regional airports now vie for our connections to Europe and the world.
Sincerly yours
Boet E. J. Kreiken
MD KLM Cityhopper
Date: Friday, 24 October, 2014 17:44
Dear Mr Wilby
Thank you for mail to our fine colleagues of KLM Cityhopper and they forwarded your request to me.You can understand how frustrated we were earlier this [year] after all our efforts and commercial and operational investments into the KLM/KLM Cityhopper Manston-Amsterdam connection to the world and to continental Europa. The whole sales force of Air France- KLM group was engaged, time, money, focus, campaigns, publications and whatsoever were put into it. As you say in the world
famous English Navy “all cannons out and fire”. We did that commercially and operationally. I still applaud our colleagues for all the work they did at the time to market, distribute and sell this new connection.
We did what we promised and delivered accordingly and with our reliable and punctual scheduled operation. The way and the speed in which Manston was closed is and was pretty shocking (not what we expect from a classic Kentish environment and also given the warm support we got from many fine associations and citizens of Kent and its surrounding area’s) and I can assure you we did lose money because of the closure, why: because we had to reroute our already booked loyal passengers again and arranged for same of course , extra costs for KLM. We also had to reroute our network and replanned where to put the assets, we lost weeks as well in this whole process (opportunity losses) and had to write off all the commercial and network investments made in the Manston campaign. Very frustrating for many in our company and just before the summer season!
The fact we started Manston and connected it to the great KLM Schiphol hub was a show of proof that we DID put our money where our mouth was. The whole story made up later on that Manston had to close because of KLM is complete nonsense, incorrect and complete reversion of truth. To protect the interest of our passengers and given the formal legal notice and risk stated by Manston Airport and its owners at the time that they would fully close the airport very quickly we had NO other choice to ACT. We are no fools and again we have the interest of our passengers at heart as well as of our company.
We were proud to fly on Manston and to start an operation is always pretty costly, risky and complex and the 2014 Manston was fully fixed in the KLM Network/Summer/Winter schedules. The booking window was fully open for a year ahead! Basically by suddenly closing the airport we never really got to the core of the business case in real life market circumstances. This is all I can and wantto say.
AirFrance-KLM , KLM and KLM Cityhopper showed their true colors as airline entrepreneurs in the Manston-Kent area . We did it and were – at least we felt it that way - stabbed in the back due many local and UK circumstances mixed with those of other private actors completely outside our control and again we had to act accordingly. We run an airline and serve passengers and with all respect do not run airports and or investment fund ventures. You can imagine how we look back at this whole very difficult experience. If we would have known this we would never have started the operation in the first place. We took the risk and due to airport closure we lost .We do not cry over spilled milk anymore now and this chapter is closed. I just write to you to put matters in its REAL perspective and to protect our name, brand and honor of our staff which did so much to start and fly the Manston operation. We are proud to serve and fly our millions of passengers from England, Wales and Scotland all over the world on our KLM Cityhopper and KLM aircraft serving British primary and regional airports. The association between our 2 countries and between KLM and the whole of Britain is very very strong and will remain to be so. Also many airports, their owners, cities and counties in the UK are happy to see the blue birds of KLM/KLM Cityhopper connecting their communities , industries and citizens to the Europe and The World and vice versa. As oldest commercial airline in the world still operating under its own brand name KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (95 years now) we continue to fly over the North Sea to serve United Kingdom whatever it takes!
I wish you well and sincerely yours,
Boet E.J. Kreiken
Managing Director
KLM Cityhopper
KLM SAY THEY WERE "STABBED IN THE BACK" BY MANSTON OWNERS.
From: Kreiken, EJ (SPLZA) - KLM
Subject: Re: KLM services from Manston
Date: Sunday, 26 October, 2014, 21:33
Dear Mr Wilby
Thank you for reply and kind and realistic words and you can use my response (in full) to put matters straight and in perspective as they really were at the time. Everytime we hear about Manston we feel the lost opportunity for the UK, the Kent region, local employment and our lost venture which did not get the time to materialise with a full summer season. Thank you once more for your professional controlller work guiding our aircraft and crews. The UK has to come to grips soon with her policy for regional airports and these airports (and e.g. amongst others our Klc operations) and airline connections are a vital lifeline for a modern economy and society as yours is. Hope is no strategy unfortunately. I wish, your family well to make ends meet, find new opportunities for emplyoyment and we are convinced that definitively destructing such a runway and location as Manston is in the long run not such a wise decision as understatement in the greater and continuously expanding London area as well as of a relatively booming South East England. Many regional airports now vie for our connections to Europe and the world.
Sincerly yours
Boet E. J. Kreiken
MD KLM Cityhopper
Date: Friday, 24 October, 2014 17:44
Dear Mr Wilby
Thank you for mail to our fine colleagues of KLM Cityhopper and they forwarded your request to me.You can understand how frustrated we were earlier this [year] after all our efforts and commercial and operational investments into the KLM/KLM Cityhopper Manston-Amsterdam connection to the world and to continental Europa. The whole sales force of Air France- KLM group was engaged, time, money, focus, campaigns, publications and whatsoever were put into it. As you say in the world
famous English Navy “all cannons out and fire”. We did that commercially and operationally. I still applaud our colleagues for all the work they did at the time to market, distribute and sell this new connection.
We did what we promised and delivered accordingly and with our reliable and punctual scheduled operation. The way and the speed in which Manston was closed is and was pretty shocking (not what we expect from a classic Kentish environment and also given the warm support we got from many fine associations and citizens of Kent and its surrounding area’s) and I can assure you we did lose money because of the closure, why: because we had to reroute our already booked loyal passengers again and arranged for same of course , extra costs for KLM. We also had to reroute our network and replanned where to put the assets, we lost weeks as well in this whole process (opportunity losses) and had to write off all the commercial and network investments made in the Manston campaign. Very frustrating for many in our company and just before the summer season!
The fact we started Manston and connected it to the great KLM Schiphol hub was a show of proof that we DID put our money where our mouth was. The whole story made up later on that Manston had to close because of KLM is complete nonsense, incorrect and complete reversion of truth. To protect the interest of our passengers and given the formal legal notice and risk stated by Manston Airport and its owners at the time that they would fully close the airport very quickly we had NO other choice to ACT. We are no fools and again we have the interest of our passengers at heart as well as of our company.
We were proud to fly on Manston and to start an operation is always pretty costly, risky and complex and the 2014 Manston was fully fixed in the KLM Network/Summer/Winter schedules. The booking window was fully open for a year ahead! Basically by suddenly closing the airport we never really got to the core of the business case in real life market circumstances. This is all I can and wantto say.
AirFrance-KLM , KLM and KLM Cityhopper showed their true colors as airline entrepreneurs in the Manston-Kent area . We did it and were – at least we felt it that way - stabbed in the back due many local and UK circumstances mixed with those of other private actors completely outside our control and again we had to act accordingly. We run an airline and serve passengers and with all respect do not run airports and or investment fund ventures. You can imagine how we look back at this whole very difficult experience. If we would have known this we would never have started the operation in the first place. We took the risk and due to airport closure we lost .We do not cry over spilled milk anymore now and this chapter is closed. I just write to you to put matters in its REAL perspective and to protect our name, brand and honor of our staff which did so much to start and fly the Manston operation. We are proud to serve and fly our millions of passengers from England, Wales and Scotland all over the world on our KLM Cityhopper and KLM aircraft serving British primary and regional airports. The association between our 2 countries and between KLM and the whole of Britain is very very strong and will remain to be so. Also many airports, their owners, cities and counties in the UK are happy to see the blue birds of KLM/KLM Cityhopper connecting their communities , industries and citizens to the Europe and The World and vice versa. As oldest commercial airline in the world still operating under its own brand name KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (95 years now) we continue to fly over the North Sea to serve United Kingdom whatever it takes!
I wish you well and sincerely yours,
Boet E.J. Kreiken
Managing Director
KLM Cityhopper
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Interesting letter.
Given that KLM's loadings were running at somewhat less than 50%, and the routes from Manston were clearly a loss leader for KLM, they would be looking for the cheapest possible airfield fees.
Given that every other airline had turned down the "opportunity" to fly fropm Manston, and Manston was losing £10k a day, is it any wonder that KLM were upset that they had to move to an airfield that is able to charge a profitable rate for it's services, rather than a cut price attempt to draw in any business at all, which even then failed to attract anything profitable.
These comments from KLM really mean little if anything. All they are really saying is that they are unhappy that their cheap place to run a loss leader from is no longer available to them.
You'll notice that nowhere do they say that their Manston operation made a profit, wonder why that might be
Given that every other airline had turned down the "opportunity" to fly fropm Manston, and Manston was losing £10k a day, is it any wonder that KLM were upset that they had to move to an airfield that is able to charge a profitable rate for it's services, rather than a cut price attempt to draw in any business at all, which even then failed to attract anything profitable.
These comments from KLM really mean little if anything. All they are really saying is that they are unhappy that their cheap place to run a loss leader from is no longer available to them.
You'll notice that nowhere do they say that their Manston operation made a profit, wonder why that might be
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Incendiary stuff. I wonder though.......do you think the Managing Director of KLM Cityhopper wanted his personal emails placed on PPRune?
Thank you for reply and kind and realistic words and you can use my response (in full) to put matters straight and in perspective as they really were at the time.
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Real World Sanity
I've been VERY close to Senior Management ie involved in planning & strategic decisions/implementation on many occasions (particularly at one "successful airport"); & I can tell you that it was not a pretty sight & did not fill me with confidence in their skills including professional knowledge & understanding, marketing, knowledge of regulations, professional regulations & International Standards & Recommended Practices, staff relations, commercialism etc. etc. etc.
I've been VERY close to Senior Management ie involved in planning & strategic decisions/implementation on many occasions (particularly at one "successful airport"); & I can tell you that it was not a pretty sight & did not fill me with confidence in their skills including professional knowledge & understanding, marketing, knowledge of regulations, professional regulations & International Standards & Recommended Practices, staff relations, commercialism etc. etc. etc.
That's why the useless boss who finally gets the chop is given a massive bonus for being useless, then turns up in a new top job a few weeks later. Failing that there's always a quango chairmanship or two.
I know that there are two (or more) sides to every story, but I know who had the most professionalism in my experience - & it wasn't the Management ! It was more the Staff.
I appreciate that a "good" Management team does not, necessarily, need to know the details of everything that it is dealing with & obtains the necessary technical & professional advice from "the experts". But, getting it to listen to, understand, accept & implement decisions based on that advice was a VERY uphill struggle !
More or less everything (professional , regulatory & human resource-wise) had to be spelled out to them word by word. On some occasions only downright opposition & intransigence finally got the essential points through to them. But, it took an awful lot of effort.
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The KLM emails have been picked up by the Thanet Gazette.
KLM boss: Manston airport was ?missed opportunity? | Thanet Gazette
KLM boss: Manston airport was ?missed opportunity? | Thanet Gazette
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There has been a legacy of blind faith in support that the airport would succeed ! Sadly it is pointless blaming successive management teams for the failure's, airlines did not wish to fly there. Whatever the reasons behind KLMs' withdrawal the airfield needed considerably more movements daily to have any chance.
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Many Eastern European airports seem to survive on next to no movements but no doubt get state handouts via EU subsidies in part paid for by the British tax payer.
Isn't Margate and the area around Manston classed as a deprived area not that I am in favor of subsidies but Maston's issue could be that it is located in the wrong country.
Isn't Margate and the area around Manston classed as a deprived area not that I am in favor of subsidies but Maston's issue could be that it is located in the wrong country.
Last edited by LTNman; 3rd Nov 2014 at 09:21.
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Hundreds of campaigners fighting to save a defunct airport have gathered at the site for a visit by a US company that also wants to reopen it.
BBC News - Fight continues over Manston Airport
BBC News - Fight continues over Manston Airport
Many Eastern European airports seem to survive on next to no movements but no doubt get state handouts via EU subsidies in part paid for by the British tax payer.
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European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - State aid: Commission adopts new guidelines for state aid to airports and airlines
Just Google "state aid for airports" it is all legal and has the full backing of the EU
Just Google "state aid for airports" it is all legal and has the full backing of the EU
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Many Eastern European airports seem to survive on next to no movements but no doubt get state handouts via EU subsidies in part paid for by the British tax payer.
Isn't Margate and the area around Manston classed as a deprived area not that I am in favor of subsidies but Maston's issue could be that it is located in the wrong country.
Isn't Margate and the area around Manston classed as a deprived area not that I am in favor of subsidies but Maston's issue could be that it is located in the wrong country.
Thought that was down to Free market economics??