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MD80 plane crash in Phuket, Sep. 07

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MD80 plane crash in Phuket, Sep. 07

Old 18th Sep 2007, 21:26
  #141 (permalink)  
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I will have to correct my previous information about the Phuket captain's medical. It had been revoked earlier this year, but he was said to be medically 'legal' again by the time of last Sunday's accident. My apologies.
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 02:31
  #142 (permalink)  
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View from the ground,

My educated guess from looking at the Swedish video, is that the survivors were mainly in the part of the aircraft, the back, that didn't have to absorb the energy of the crash at whatever speed they were doing. Similar to the SQ crash in taipei, where the lower deck of the 747 acted as a crumple zone in such a way that the cockpit and the upper deck, as well as the rear lower deck produced most of the survivors.

The news reports that many of the dead will need to be identified by DNA, presumably the fire just starting on the front end of the aircraft in the video would go on to consume part of it.

One wonders how many of the dead were trapped or unconscious in the wreckage before the fire started, and what effect a more efficient fire service response would have had on the number of survivors.
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 02:36
  #143 (permalink)  
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I'd love an email for the a Journo @ the Bangkok post. (having worked @ 1-2-G0 some years back), Udom really needs to have his doors closed.
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 03:09
  #144 (permalink)  
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Numerous comments reflected about the "belated" response of the fire/crash rescue trucks.

From the mobile phone video footage taken by a survivor it was apparent that visibility was poor in moderate rain and ground fog. So, if you were the driver of a rescue vehicle, would YOU instantly know where to go if you couldn't see the smoke from the wreckage, if you couldn't see any wreckage on the runway?
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 03:39
  #145 (permalink)  
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My initial post has gone walkabout also

I have gotten the impression that most of the survivors were from the mid section of the plane, from the footage the fire seemed to take hold first at the rear.
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 04:03
  #146 (permalink)  
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One runway, direction of use known, big bang, drive down runway in direction of use as a first response perhaps (how long would that take, 30secs? 1 minute?) no longer than it would take to open the overwing emergency exits and leg it to the runway I think, so one would expect them to be there at least at about the time the Swedes filming had started.
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 04:38
  #147 (permalink)  
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By crossreferencing the manifest and a MD80 seat plan, all the survivors were sitting in rows 18-29, with the exception of a passenger who was in 6A.
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 05:26
  #148 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
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No Surprise At All

For the many of us who have worked at OX in the past this accident is no surprise at all, but still saddens us to the core.Compounding this tragedy is the underlying feeling that this will not be their last, and that the authorities will not take the hard decisions to force OX to follow the required safety practices followed in most of aviation.Those of us in the know were shocked to learn that Capt xxxxx was the CP.Rest his poor soul.I pray that some sort of good comes out of this horrible event Reverend.
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 08:58
  #149 (permalink)  
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So, what caused this prang?...

let's see now...

third world country, third world standards...

chief pilot had 14 years airline experience only!!...

let me say that again...14 years airline experience only!!

Says it all really, doesn't it?
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 09:33
  #150 (permalink)  
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let me say that again...14 years airline experience only
There is experience and getting older as the world passes you by! I'll leave the individual alone as I have no firsthand knowledge of him. I do know that '14 Years experience' can be as much use as a chocolate fire guard. Example: The average Scandanavian Pilot sees more weather in a week than a domestic Aussie Pilot sees in his career. So if there can be such a disparity in 'real' experience how do airlines get around it? They train and examine to a standard.

Performance = Ability + Training + Exposure.

The performance is affected by external pressures, national and coorporate cultures etc etc. Sadly a great number of cultures do not train to a standard that allows the crews to deal with anything out of the ordinary. Some guys, from all over the world, will not stand up and be counted when things go awry. Most of the time they get away with it but sometimes...

Amos, would you prefer to be driven to work in fog by a below average taxi driver that had never seen fog before but had been driving for 14 years or by the world's safest 1 year experience driving champion after he had just completed a 6 week 'fog driving' course. One has experience, the other has skill and exposure. Go and look up 'experience' in the dictionary, you won't find capability anywhere in the description.

Oh and to answer your question as to what caused the accident. I'd bet my mortgage on a commander that took an unsafe decision to try and land in awful weather and then didn't have the skill to get away with it. Seems like your 'experienced' guy was briefly the 'old and bold' pilot' of legend!
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 11:02
  #151 (permalink)  
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Just as long as you didn't say he was a figjam!

We all know Thai ATC had nothing to do with it. Out of interest, anyone know when say, Frankfurt, would close for crap weather and make the decision for you? I know movements get suspended for lightning risk but what about max windspeed. When do even the ground pounders shut up shop?
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 11:09
  #152 (permalink)  
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AFAIK airfield only close if they can't provide the service. Snow on runways - or snowploughs clearing runways would be an example. Manchester closed early this year in very high winds - not directly because of the winds (that's the pilot's call), but because of debris bown onto the runways by the winds, and vehicles trying to clear it off.
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 12:04
  #153 (permalink)  
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Short and to the point?

First time I've seen this comment from the Phuket Gazette:

"At a press conference at the Airports Of Thailand office about 9 pm, Phuket Airport Director Sq Ldr Pornchai Eua-aree said the crash was the result of a “mis-approach” landing, after which the pilot tried to regain enough speed to take off again – but failed."

They later said all ATC's had been assigned desk duty as they all saw the crash and were very distressed.
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 12:18
  #154 (permalink)  
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Which just goes to prove what I've been saying!...

third world countries have third world standards!!...

which are rather poor!!!
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 14:02
  #155 (permalink)  
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I think you'll find Amos was implying that 14yrs is not much experience for a CP at an airline of that size.....at least I hope he was, 14yrs is a junior captain at my airline.
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 15:20
  #156 (permalink)  
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ok all sweet now..................
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 15:54
  #157 (permalink)  
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Is everyone so sure that third world countries still have third world standards?
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 19:08
  #158 (permalink)  
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Is everyone so sure that third world countries still have third world standards?
Nope, nor do I know whether they are applicable in this accident.

let he who casts the first stone be without...
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 19:47
  #159 (permalink)  
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Don’t worry too much about amos2. Seems he’s had a chip on his epaulets for five years, at least. Perhaps he’s the reason for - ‘How do you know there’s a pilot in the room?’ With amos2 it isn't a joke.

One of his (much) earlier contributions.

. .Now at last we are back to the good old days. Two airlines in Australia...albeit one of them catering to the lowest common denominator, mores the pity.. .. .The days when airline flying was for the privileged and the elite are far gone unfortunately.
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Old 19th Sep 2007, 19:51
  #160 (permalink)  
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Sad this has to happen....

I worked for OX on the B752 during furlough from my current job. It's with great sadness and anger that I read about this accident for it did hit close to home...

I have been telling friends intending to travel to the Far East not to fly on the low-cost carriers (except those affliated with the national carriers such as Tiger and Nok-Air), especially on OX 747s and MD-80s. For those of us who have worked at OX, this accident seemed inevitable with their "management" culture. Their attitude was to save money at all cost and ask the crew to do something illegal - if the crew do it and get caught, that's their own problem. Fortunately for me all the B752 pilots were western trained (Americans, Canucks, Aussies, Kiwis, and Brit) so we did follow FOMs and SOPs. I personally overheard a conversation in which the "management" person told another pilot that all the TROUBLEMAKERS in the company were the American pilots on the B752. I assume he meant that we were troublemakers because we followed rules as well as refused aircraft for maintenance issues.

With my experience at OX, I could confirm most of what was in shiftpattern's post #123. I do not know the pilots involved (may they RIP) for the MD-80s arrived just when I quit OX and I am sure those initial MD-80 pilots no longer worked there. IMHO, Udom and his "management" is at fault and DCA is also to blame for looking the other way. Unfortunately I don't think much of the story about exceeding duty limitations and maintence issues would ever come out (so on one could loose face).

As the scheduler, I had a disagreement later with that same "management" person mentioned above regarding duty limitations. OX added seasonal service from HKT to HKG on the B752 in Aug '05. I had wanted the pilots to layover in HKG (BKK-HKT-HKG, layover and do the reverse next day) but he wanted the layover be in HKT. Quoting him, "it's easier to get hotels in HKT and his boys on the B747 really like the HKT layover." I gave in to that so we flew BKK-HKT-HKG-HKT, but realized within the first week that it was not legal (out of the first 4 flights, the fastest was 8.1 hrs flight time and the average was 8.3 hrs). When I complained that this was illegal for it exceed the domestic limit of 8 hrs, the answer was that it followed international limit of 10 hrs. Since there was an obvious disagreement over our interpretations of the FOM, I asked him to go to the DCA to clarify whether BKK-HKT-HKG-HKT should be considered domestic or international. The initial answer was that he was too busy and had no time to do that. When I persisted, his answer was that he did ask and DCA's answer was that it was up to OX to decide so it is international. I then ask him to put that in writing in the FOM or a memo but that request was just ignored. These flights concluded just about then and the isssue never came up again during my remaining 3 months at OX. Of course now I deeply regret not forcing the issure more. With Thai pilots, I could easily see they simply do whatever they are asked to do even if it was illegal according to the FOM.

With the exception of the stress from dealing with "management", I enjoyed my experience at OX - worked with good people, formed great friendships, and learned much from flying to locations I would never see at the major airline I work for. RIP to those who perished and my prayers to the recovery of those injured.

Let's just hope this doesn't happen again...
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