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Old 1st Oct 2007, 19:02   #241 (permalink)
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Devil Ambulance Chaser

Law offices like this are considered "Ambulance Chasers" in the US. They take on cases for a settlement agreement. If they win your case the law office wins big time and you get peanuts!
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Old 2nd Oct 2007, 08:27   #242 (permalink)
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A thought on seeing the pictures with survivors.
Just looking at it from a survival-technical viewpoint: I think this summers' flip-flop slipper fashion was an unfortunate one. I would not like to have walked through the crash rubble barefoot.
Me neither, but I don't think most people get on a plane thinking what they should be wearing in case it crashes. If they did, they'd be wearing fire-retardant suits, crash helmets and an oxygen supply.
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Old 2nd Oct 2007, 09:53   #243 (permalink)
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read here who is this "expert"

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Old 2nd Oct 2007, 11:52   #244 (permalink)
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EMIT - "Just looking at it from a survival-technical viewpoint: I think this summers' flip-flop slipper fashion was an unfortunate one. I would not like to have walked through the crash rubble barefoot."

Flip-flops and shorts are standard out here, if you are not working - I last wore a pair of shoes when I came back from Manchester almost a year ago, long trousers I only wear when I go to the Immigration to sign my 90 day notice or other business. The next time that I will wear long trousers will be on Christmas Eve, again for 90 day reporting unless Mrs Hippo and I decide to spend Christmas in the UK again this year.
Personally I do not wear flip flops and shorts whilst flying and I wish we could get back to the days when people dressed casual and polite.
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that shoes were removed when using the evacuation chutes.
Slightly off-topic: The award for the most inappropriate use of flip flops goes to Fireman al Obaishi [because of his small stature and rotundity also known as 'Egg on Legs'] of Station 4 (Landside) JED for attending drills and shouts wearing full fire suit and flip flops!
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Old 2nd Oct 2007, 12:22   #245 (permalink)
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Mr Hippo,
Your last post jogged an old memory. Back in the '70's when I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia, the authorities at Dhahran Airport upgraded the fire services. As was the case with most of the services in the country at that time, the personnel were expatriate (mostly Indians and Pakistani's). They were paraded before the press in full kit, flame retardant suits, masks and head covering - the works. Sadly those who had organised the photo op forgot to tell the lads to get rid of their habitual footwear.
Yup - you guessed it. Full state of the art firefighting kit and flipflops. The guys from BAC (now BAe) who witnessed the event were in hysterics.
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Old 2nd Oct 2007, 23:29   #246 (permalink)
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Until Alah, gets a training quaification

Come on boys, lets talk aviation not religion, would we?!
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Old 3rd Oct 2007, 06:48   #247 (permalink)

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I can't believe Boeing is being sued.

Having worked there in 2004, I am more than aware of the common practice to disregard ANY law, not fix ANY problem, and have completely unqualified people flying the aircraft.

Udom (Owner) is the worlds biggest cheater and if he thought for a second he could save a nickle by removing one of the bloody wings. He would.

Others have posted situations, ie. B757 lands in ChangMai with Engine Failure. Udom wants crew to Single engine T/O and Ferry to BKK, Pieces of wing falling off in flight, Captains so drunk they can't walk up the steps turning up for duty... ect..

All this are just an average day, not an exception.

The man should be shot.
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Old 3rd Oct 2007, 10:02   #248 (permalink)
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“It is a known fact that Boeing 737s have defective design in the rudder system,”
I assume he's referring to the rudder hard-over problems where they lost a couple and nearly lost a third before finally tracking it down. That ought to have been fixed by now, plus the pilot training was supposed to have been altered a bit to improve the chance of survival if something similar happened again. Anyone still flying with the old design ought to be sued, not Boeing.

However, given the rest of what he said, I'm guessing he's done a Google search and hauled up a bunch of unrelated stuff on 737 crashes and the particular aircraft and tried to stick it together to make a case.
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Old 4th Oct 2007, 05:42   #249 (permalink)
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I can't believe Boeing is being sued.

Having worked there in 2004, I am more than aware of the common practice to disregard ANY law, not fix ANY problem, and have completely unqualified people flying the aircraft.
Boeing is being sued because they have "deep pockets" and will respect legal rulings against them, whereas even if a court rules that Orient Air is liable, getting any money out of them will no doubt prove very difficult. However, if you do have information relevant to the inquiry i do hope you will pass it on to the investigators, (and the lawyers) as this is the only way there is a chance of things improving.
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Old 4th Oct 2007, 06:29   #250 (permalink)
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Wishful thingking

Etrang, I copy part of your post:

However, if you do have information relevant to the inquiry i do hope you will pass it on to the investigators, (and the lawyers) as this is the only way there is a chance of things improving.

I must remind you that the investigators are from Thailand. They are those same people who have been paid by Udom to turn a blind eye.
The end conclusion of the "investigation" report will be: The Captain is responsible, he f..d up.
I differ, The OX management is criminally responsible, but chances are the DCA findings will rule, because this is SE Asia
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Old 4th Oct 2007, 07:30   #251 (permalink)
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Well, I did say "a chance". But the inquiry does have international representatives from Boeing (and maybe the NTSB?). Orient Thai does fly international routes so regulators in other countries may take an interest in what comes to light during the investigation (not just in the final report).
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Old 4th Oct 2007, 07:59   #252 (permalink)
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"I must remind you that the investigators are from Thailand. They are those same people who have been paid by Udom to turn a blind eye." - capbkk

Any proof?
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Old 4th Oct 2007, 15:15   #253 (permalink)
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Mr Hippo,

You bet there are. Question is, will the Thai investigators look at them?
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Old 4th Oct 2007, 21:53   #254 (permalink)

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Orient Thai, an accident in the making
  • I worked at Orient Thai for one year on the B747.
  • I can not speak too much about the B757 or the MD operation. I believe the B757 section operated well because of western crews and the tight control of Xan. I left just after they got a couple of MDs. The MD operation started out to be good because most all of the MD crews were western.
  • But in some respects, Orient Thai was like the French Foreign Legion; most everybody had a story or had a skeleton in the closet.
  • On the B747 there were three camps, Indonesians, Filipinos and Westerners.
  • I have worked for several non-scheduled airlines. Orient Thai is the only company that when we had a beer in a bar at night we would ponder when they were going to crash the first one.
  • There was a Thai ‘Dragon Lady’ that ran Flight Operations as I left. I am not sure where the ‘Dragon Lady’ came from. I think maybe she started out as a secretary or something. She was at the airline from the beginning. All I knew was that she worked for Udom for a long time and Udom trusted her. She had the aspiration of operating the airline. She got her wish by finding a retired Thai DCA Inspector that she could manipulate to replace Graham Smith as the DO. Things went to shit when Graham was pushed out. While Graham was there there was progress being made to make Orient Thai into a respectable airline. One time, after Graham was gone, I overheard the ‘Dragon Lady’ tell a B757 crew member, “I am in charge now and you will do what I tell you to do”, when she wanted him to exceed a duty time limitation.
  • I understand that the new Thai DO wanted to get rid of the western crews and replace them with Thais. I believe this was because the Asian crews said yes more easily when the company wanted them to break the rules.
  • Envelopes of money waiting for guys at check in if their flight was scheduled to exceed duty times.
  • Orient Thai had just gotten three Thai First Officers while I was there. They didn’t know the first thing about operating a large aircraft. They had come from the Thai Air Force where they flew fighters. I believe one of them had a claim-to-fame of crashing a Harrier and living through it.
  • The new Thai DO’s idea of operating an airline was allowing the ‘new hire’ Thai First Officers to suck up to him on the golf course or over tea in his office.
  • Many times I would catch a glimpse of the Thai DO in his office staring at the wall or sleeping-no papers or documents on his desk. If he wasn’t at the golf course in the afternoon he would go home at 5 or before. By contrast, sometimes I would arrive very early in the morning for a flight to see Graham busy at his desk. Other times I would see Graham there at 11pm.
  • There was absolutely zero training; no initial or recurrent training.
  • No CRM or CRM training.
  • No Standards
  • There were some Indonesian and Filipino captains thinking they were gods. It is the culture.
  • While I was there it was western management on the B747. They were fought by the Filipinos and Indonesians when they tried to increase the standards on the B747 and to change it from a ‘good-ole-boy-flying-club’ to an airline. The Indonesians and Filipinos manipulated the Scheduler so that they could get all one nationality on a crew so they could operate the aircraft as if they were back at Philippine Air or at Garuda. They would even use manuals and checklist from their previous airline.
  • The Captains who were responsible to verify the accuracy of Performance Data and Weight and Balance computations did not know what they were checking. This came to light during a training course instigated by Graham when he was DO.
  • Maintenance was a horror story! They ‘pencil whipped’ maintenance and checks. Frequently, I would arrive at the aircraft for a morning departure and I could tell by the fuel remaining at block in from the log book the night before and comparing it to what was currently onboard the aircraft that the APU was operated all night instead of a ground power unit. I suspected it was so that the mechanics had the comfort of air conditioning from the APU to allow them to sleep all night instead of doing the required maintenance inspections.
  • On one of my first flights while at Orient Thai on a dark early morning departure I just by chance from the reflection of my flashlight found the pitot static ports taped over with CLEAR tape with no log book entry. Apparently, there was a belly wash the night before. When I brought it to the attention of a Thai Mechanic his response was, “want me to remove?” No, just leave it there and maybe it will blow off before we crash!
  • Another time after spending a night in Hong Kong in the morning during the preflight I asked the mechanic if he did a daily inspection on the aircraft? His response was, “yes”. I asked if the tires were checked as part of the daily and he said no. Which they should have been because it is part of a daily inspection. I told him he better get a gauge and check the tires because some of them looked low. He told me he couldn’t because he had no gauge and he would have to pay a Cathay mechanic to do it and he had no money to pay him.
  • The mechanics had no company tools. One time, I asked to borrow a tool from a Flight Mechanic during a long trip. I opened his tool box only to find it full of junk.
  • Many times I would force mechanics to get a tire gauge to check the tires. On preflights I found many tires low. I found one tire at just 50 psi (who knows how many flights it had operated at that pressure) when it should have been at 200 psi. “Can’t we just air it up” was the response of a Thai mechanic when I told him to replace the tire. What if I had not been watching when he checked the tire pressure? Anyone that has worked with airplanes for a short period time knows that this is an automatic tire change with the tire coming off being condemned. Blown tires have been known to have caused aircraft accidents. Low tires are something that you can sometimes see. Who knows what is being neglected that is not obvious.
  • There is also an instance that I know of where the Chief Pilot (a westerner) grounded an aircraft and offloaded passengers for a maintenance problem. Later finding out instead of fixing the problem with the aircraft the company called out a Filipino crew that was willing to fly the broken aircraft.
  • If an intelligent DCA Inspector spent a few hours going through the aircraft log books it would paint an interesting story. He could see where maintenance would sign off deferred maintenance items just as they timed out only to be written up again by a new crew. This would happen several times in a row. There were totally bogus ways they would sign things off. If the Thai DCA was doing their job correctly every Mechanic at Orient Thai would lose their license. Either the DCA is incompetent, corrupt or both. I believe Udom was paying off the DCA.
  • I believe that not only should Indonesian airlines be black listed but the EU should take a very serious look at the Thai airlines. Especially the low budget ones (Orient Thai/Thai Sky etc.).
  • I am sure some people will view this information as prejudiced, biased or even racist. This is the way it was as I saw it while I was there.
  • I believe every western crew member that has left Orient Thai knew that this accident was going to happen; it was just a matter of when.
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Old 4th Oct 2007, 23:40   #255 (permalink)
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baccara bar

bb, coming from the ARSE END OF THE WORLD you are sure spewing shit. The MAS tragedy at Tanjung Kupang some thirty years ago was skipperred by an Indian expat and there weren't any of the shit you mentioned ever recorded.
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Old 5th Oct 2007, 06:43   #256 (permalink)
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Mr bungacengkeh,

You're fairly harsh but I suppose baccara deserves it. I cringe with embarassment everytime someone from Paul Keating's domain put his/her foot in the mouth. I suppose bb is one of those fair dinkums who speaks through his six...many of those around unfortunately.

There are plenty of great Asian pilots that I was fortunate to be acquainted with during my time with a major Pacific Rim carrier. However there are many too who shouldn't be trusted with a lawn mower, much less a plane. Likewise I do know many fruitcakes too from my home country who goes around bad mouthing Asians and non Caucasians in the pathetic efforts to cover up their own inadequacies. Unfortunately bb and Jeff Davies probably got mixed up with the dregs left in those dodgy outfits. However we too have such dodgy outfits too in the western world.
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Old 5th Oct 2007, 17:51   #257 (permalink)
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Jeffery Davis . . . but you had stayed one entire year!
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Old 5th Oct 2007, 21:17   #258 (permalink)

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Hi Glueball,

Yes, I did stay one year. The first 10 months I was there OT was making positive progress to be a real airline. Then things went south when the Dragon Lady took control and the Thai DO came on board. The handwriting was on the wall and it was time to go.

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Old 6th Oct 2007, 14:06   #259 (permalink)
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"Mr Wuthichai also defended the safety standards of the One-Two-Go airline, saying it had met all the safety standard requirements in line with what is laid down by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO)."

Just about says it all to me. We can go on looking for the active failures of the flight crew etc, etc, but what about the error producing conditions already present in the system.

At the end of the day when the people running the show come up with statements like this, we know it is going to be a long, long time before there is any significant change to the safety culture within most of Asia.

(A similar statement was made by Indonesian authorities following Yogojakarta - I think it was "accidents happen")

Last edited by kellykelpie; 6th Oct 2007 at 14:17.
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Old 6th Oct 2007, 18:20   #260 (permalink)
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Flight Safety In Danger

Jeffry Davis, your post is spot on.If OX is not properly investigated or even shut down, then more and more passengers lives will be put at risk, that is a given.They can carry on flying people and Mr Udom can have his train set, but he MUST be forced to do it safely.He must conduct proper maintenance.He must carry out the required crew training.He must put in place the correctly qualified ops staff to run his operation instead of Namfon and Ongar etc.He must abide by all the mandated safety rules promulgated by DCA, but not enforced.If not then he is not a fit and proper person to own an airline.Go and run a restuarant.
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