Aer Lingus - 4
Join Date: May 2001
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"Beancounters United" strikes back, eh?
You're misinformed.
The 'document' was directed at the Takeover Panel and perhaps a few 'floating voters' in the stock market. It made no impact on the majority shareholders - the staff and the government - and had no influence on the pilots, who spent tens of millions of their own money buying Aer Lingus shares thus mounting a practical defence from a hostile takeover.
Its pathetic to suggest that a bunch of suits, writing a flawed document backed with a glossy magazine - and charging 16.2M for it - were more effective than those who actually stumped up and invested the same amount or more.
Still, nice to see you think YOU'RE worth your inflated salaries, even if pilots and other workers aren't.
Must be a galling experience to find yourselves the target of media scrutiny for a change?
You're misinformed.
The 'document' was directed at the Takeover Panel and perhaps a few 'floating voters' in the stock market. It made no impact on the majority shareholders - the staff and the government - and had no influence on the pilots, who spent tens of millions of their own money buying Aer Lingus shares thus mounting a practical defence from a hostile takeover.
Its pathetic to suggest that a bunch of suits, writing a flawed document backed with a glossy magazine - and charging 16.2M for it - were more effective than those who actually stumped up and invested the same amount or more.
Still, nice to see you think YOU'RE worth your inflated salaries, even if pilots and other workers aren't.
Must be a galling experience to find yourselves the target of media scrutiny for a change?
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Clearly you have little understading of what "beancounters" (as you so disparagingly call us) also have up their sleeve as products in their firms - namely M&A advisory as well - the same as the investment banks.
You are utterly incorrect - the document is not simply a check-box requirement with the takeover panel - it is entirely aimed at the floating voters - many of whom were influenced by the plans (certainly not a "few" - who do you think the employee trust purchased the shares from? God?).
Clearly, the actions of the advisors is totally alien to you - let me explain in that case. These guys are working a minimum of 90 hours per week, trying to find hidden value in the business so that it can survive independently, and marketing the business to those who purchased large chunks of share capital in support of management during this episode (a certain Irish investor comes to mind, along with many others). On top of this, they are delivering advice to management on a daily basis, helping the directors to understand what actions to take, what messages to convey, and to whom else they should call on support if Ryanair have a realistic chance of a takeover.
Then comes a huge process of reviewing projections, tearing them apart, re-forecasting with greater knowledge, challenging management assumptions and attempting to place the business on an even more stable footing: those 16.2m euros of fees could potentially have added another 100m+ to the market capitalisation purely through a few insights generated by a couple of PhDs in Goldman Sachs.
Now, take a look at the free float of Aer Lingus, plus the fund managers who own shares as well - whose support has to be shored up - along with other non-strategic holdings...apart for the government of Ireland and the employee shares, the remainder (a large amount more than a "few floating voters") amounts to a huge task.
Justifying large fees? I don't think you really understand - fees are calculated on hours worked and a very thin slice of additional worth created (perhaps less than 0.5%).
I don't really see how you can complain too much about "employee pain" if you are indeed an employee who owns shares - the benefit flows back to you through the worth of those shares instead.
Of course, if you are a communist, simply tell us to save the argument...
You are utterly incorrect - the document is not simply a check-box requirement with the takeover panel - it is entirely aimed at the floating voters - many of whom were influenced by the plans (certainly not a "few" - who do you think the employee trust purchased the shares from? God?).
Clearly, the actions of the advisors is totally alien to you - let me explain in that case. These guys are working a minimum of 90 hours per week, trying to find hidden value in the business so that it can survive independently, and marketing the business to those who purchased large chunks of share capital in support of management during this episode (a certain Irish investor comes to mind, along with many others). On top of this, they are delivering advice to management on a daily basis, helping the directors to understand what actions to take, what messages to convey, and to whom else they should call on support if Ryanair have a realistic chance of a takeover.
Then comes a huge process of reviewing projections, tearing them apart, re-forecasting with greater knowledge, challenging management assumptions and attempting to place the business on an even more stable footing: those 16.2m euros of fees could potentially have added another 100m+ to the market capitalisation purely through a few insights generated by a couple of PhDs in Goldman Sachs.
Now, take a look at the free float of Aer Lingus, plus the fund managers who own shares as well - whose support has to be shored up - along with other non-strategic holdings...apart for the government of Ireland and the employee shares, the remainder (a large amount more than a "few floating voters") amounts to a huge task.
Justifying large fees? I don't think you really understand - fees are calculated on hours worked and a very thin slice of additional worth created (perhaps less than 0.5%).
I don't really see how you can complain too much about "employee pain" if you are indeed an employee who owns shares - the benefit flows back to you through the worth of those shares instead.
Of course, if you are a communist, simply tell us to save the argument...
Join Date: May 2001
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Clearly you have little understading of what "beancounters" (as you so disparagingly call us) also have up their sleeve as products in their firms - namely M&A advisory as well - the same as the investment banks.
You are utterly incorrect - the document is not simply a check-box requirement with the takeover panel - it is entirely aimed at the floating voters - many of whom were influenced by the plans (certainly not a "few" - who do you think the employee trust purchased the shares from? God?).
No 'floaters' or deities were required.
Clearly, the actions of the advisors is totally alien to you - let me explain in that case. These guys are working a minimum of 90 hours per week,
trying to find hidden value in the business so that it can survive independently,
and marketing the business to those who purchased large chunks of share capital in support of management during this episode (a certain Irish investor comes to mind, along with many others).
On top of this, they are delivering advice to management on a daily basis, helping the directors to understand what actions to take, what messages to convey, and to whom else they should call on support if Ryanair have a realistic chance of a takeover.
Then comes a huge process of reviewing projections, tearing them apart, re-forecasting with greater knowledge, challenging management assumptions and attempting to place the business on an even more stable footing: those 16.2m euros of fees could potentially have added another 100m+ to the market capitalisation purely through a few insights generated by a couple of PhDs in Goldman Sachs.
By the way - give me some evidence of the 100M added to the company by the touts, please.
Now, take a look at the free float of Aer Lingus, plus the fund managers who own shares as well - whose support has to be shored up - along with other non-strategic holdings...apart for the government of Ireland and the employee shares, the remainder (a large amount more than a "few floating voters") amounts to a huge task.
Justifying large fees? I don't think you really understand - fees are calculated on hours worked and a very thin slice of additional worth created (perhaps less than 0.5%).
I don't really see how you can complain too much about "employee pain" if you are indeed an employee who owns shares - the benefit flows back to you through the worth of those shares instead.
The really interesting aspect of your long-winded diatribe is the utter self-obsession of the Corporatist mindset you labour under. The total absence of any sense of real personal accountability in your profession is betrayed in the scandals that occur with such regular monotony. Should I list them?
Every pilot on this forum is required to accept and uphold a responsibility of the most demanding and unforgiving nature. Unlike you, there is no walking away from disasters, or blathering excuses to cover up incompetence And Greed.
Of course, if you are a communist, simply tell us to save the argument...
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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EI to SFO
Here are the new EI schedules to SFO:
Departing TU, TH and SA.
EI 147 Dep DUB 9.15 Arr SFO 12.15
EI 146 Dep SFO 14.30 Arr DUB 8.30
Will post MCO and IAD when they're on the EI site.
Departing TU, TH and SA.
EI 147 Dep DUB 9.15 Arr SFO 12.15
EI 146 Dep SFO 14.30 Arr DUB 8.30
Will post MCO and IAD when they're on the EI site.
Join Date: Jan 2000
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Here are the new EI schedules to SFO:
Departing TU, TH and SA.
EI 147 Dep DUB 9.15 Arr SFO 12.15
EI 146 Dep SFO 14.30 Arr DUB 8.30
Will post MCO and IAD when they're on the EI site.
Where is this aircaft coming from?
Departing TU, TH and SA.
EI 147 Dep DUB 9.15 Arr SFO 12.15
EI 146 Dep SFO 14.30 Arr DUB 8.30
Will post MCO and IAD when they're on the EI site.
Where is this aircaft coming from?
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March 30 (Bloomberg) -- Ryanair Holdings Plc's proposed purchase of Aer Lingus Plc would harm competition by creating a dominant carrier in Ireland and eliminating rivalry between the airlines to start new routes, European antitrust regulators said.
Join Date: Aug 1999
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Aer Lingus to MCO/IAD
MCO
Operated 3 per week
Schedule is: (1200-1550) EI 121 Days 2, 4, 6
Return (1800-0700) EI 120
IAD
Operated 4 per week
Schedule is (1400-1630) EI 119 Days 1,3,5,7
Return (1930-0715) EI 118
Operated 3 per week
Schedule is: (1200-1550) EI 121 Days 2, 4, 6
Return (1800-0700) EI 120
IAD
Operated 4 per week
Schedule is (1400-1630) EI 119 Days 1,3,5,7
Return (1930-0715) EI 118
Last edited by akerosid; 30th Mar 2007 at 12:11. Reason: Addition of info on IAD flights
Join Date: Jul 2003
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A number of years ago Aer Lingus started some of their transatlantic flights from Manchester via Dublin, is their any potential to do the same, i.e. the new SFO flight, a destination not served from MAN.?
Join Date: Aug 1999
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Absolutely, and from many other UK and EU destinations too. Mind you, the SFO departure is a bit early (09.15) for westbound connections, but it should be possible to any of the other US destinations.
The other problem is that DUB is not particularly connection-friendly, in that one has to come out through arrivals, go upstairs, head (through the milling crowds) to the far end of the terminal and enter through a very small door, to the security area; the DAA really needs to rethink that; there used to be an airside facility, but I don't know why they removed that.
The other problem is that DUB is not particularly connection-friendly, in that one has to come out through arrivals, go upstairs, head (through the milling crowds) to the far end of the terminal and enter through a very small door, to the security area; the DAA really needs to rethink that; there used to be an airside facility, but I don't know why they removed that.
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MCO
Operated 3 per week
Schedule is: (1200-1550) EI 121 Days 2, 4, 6
Return (1800-0700) EI 120
IAD
Operated 4 per week
Schedule is (1400-1630) EI 119 Days 1,3,5,7
Return (1930-0715) EI 118
So if an aircraft goes tech in MCO then it screws up the entire week? Once again, is this not EI spreading themselves a bit thin?
Operated 3 per week
Schedule is: (1200-1550) EI 121 Days 2, 4, 6
Return (1800-0700) EI 120
IAD
Operated 4 per week
Schedule is (1400-1630) EI 119 Days 1,3,5,7
Return (1930-0715) EI 118
So if an aircraft goes tech in MCO then it screws up the entire week? Once again, is this not EI spreading themselves a bit thin?
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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It's the same as always; you try and cover the most flights with as few aircraft and get the highest utilisation. Problems do happen with the existing fleet and it's not just EI's fleet; it can happen anywhere. It's just one of the operational risks an airline has to deal with.
Just keep World's/North American's/Martinair's (etc) numbers handy and hope they have an aircraft going when things go awry!
Just keep World's/North American's/Martinair's (etc) numbers handy and hope they have an aircraft going when things go awry!
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I didn't think FR charged for pre-seat selection? Infact you can't choose your seat til you get on board so perhaps you're getting confused with their charging for pre-boarding???
Anyhow you can still have the lowest EI fare available you just can't choose where you sit til check-in (as previous), EI are only offering it as an add-on for those that are wanting to sit in a particular seat so they're only cashing in on a "supply and demand" situation. Works for most charters here in the UK.
I don't however understand this fascination with wanting to sit in the front section unless the seats are fluffier, the clientele dressed appropriately and the champagne on ice (and free).
Anyhow you can still have the lowest EI fare available you just can't choose where you sit til check-in (as previous), EI are only offering it as an add-on for those that are wanting to sit in a particular seat so they're only cashing in on a "supply and demand" situation. Works for most charters here in the UK.
I don't however understand this fascination with wanting to sit in the front section unless the seats are fluffier, the clientele dressed appropriately and the champagne on ice (and free).
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Originally Posted by pamann
I don't however understand this fascination with wanting to sit in the front section
Join Date: Feb 2000
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I just hope the public get what the public want when it comes to a family of 4 (2 small kids) checking in at the airport and not getting seats together. How will a punter feel who has paid €3 to preassign a seat when they are asked by the crew to move to seat a family together. IMHO this has nothing to do with giving people what they want...its about extracting as much cash from people. What next...charging a € to take a leak and €2 for the other. Aer Lingus has gone to the dogs. I recently travelled premier to NY and back from Chicago. The service was poor, the food cold, the in-flight entertainment not working and the Cabin Crew scarce.
EI call themselves low cost...I had to laugh. I looked to book DUB-BCN in August. Price excluding bags and seat assignment for 2 pax was €350 approx. FR charged €290, IB charged €230 and Clickair charged €190 (if you book with IB you still end up travelling with Clickair).
EI call themselves low cost...I had to laugh. I looked to book DUB-BCN in August. Price excluding bags and seat assignment for 2 pax was €350 approx. FR charged €290, IB charged €230 and Clickair charged €190 (if you book with IB you still end up travelling with Clickair).
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I have a feeling that nobody will use this service. Checking in online should guarantee you a decent enough seat anyway.
How are they going to ensure the people who pre-book the emergency exit seats are fit to sit there? I can just imagine someone deciding they need the extra space because their leg is in a cast!
Incidentally, the re-greening of Aer Lingus continues with a new look to the website today.
How are they going to ensure the people who pre-book the emergency exit seats are fit to sit there? I can just imagine someone deciding they need the extra space because their leg is in a cast!
Incidentally, the re-greening of Aer Lingus continues with a new look to the website today.
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I just hope the public get what the public want when it comes to a family of 4 (2 small kids) checking in at the airport and not getting seats together. How will a punter feel who has paid €3 to preassign a seat when they are asked by the crew to move to seat a family together.
IMHO this has nothing to do with giving people what they want...its about extracting as much cash from people. What next...charging a € to take a leak and €2 for the other.
You wanted it - You got it.
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Take the point Maxalt but the only thing EI seems to have done is called itself a "Low Cost" carrier implying cheaper fares arising from lower costs. The trouble is that they aint that cheap (see my earlier mail).
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You quoted fares on a particular day, on a specific route.
Its impossible to say which carrier will be cheapest from day to day. Or who'll be cheaper on any given route. Yield management by online booking engines constantly adjusts fares. Shop around.
The 'average fares' quoted by the likes of O'Leary should be taken with a pinch of salt, just like everything else he says. He doesn't include all his extras. Its a meaningless figure.
Aer Lingus is now dumbing down to become FR Mk2.
I don't like where its going -but its too late to reason with the punters. They refused to see the writing on the wall when differentiation still existed...all you got was complaints about 'expensive legacy carriers' ripping them off.
Now they complain about nasty LoCo's ripping them off!
Zero sympathy. And it'll only get worse.
Its impossible to say which carrier will be cheapest from day to day. Or who'll be cheaper on any given route. Yield management by online booking engines constantly adjusts fares. Shop around.
The 'average fares' quoted by the likes of O'Leary should be taken with a pinch of salt, just like everything else he says. He doesn't include all his extras. Its a meaningless figure.
Aer Lingus is now dumbing down to become FR Mk2.
I don't like where its going -but its too late to reason with the punters. They refused to see the writing on the wall when differentiation still existed...all you got was complaints about 'expensive legacy carriers' ripping them off.
Now they complain about nasty LoCo's ripping them off!
Zero sympathy. And it'll only get worse.