Air France
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[quote]
Absolutly, hence..........no problem or no problemo ? In that particular case it turned out to be worthwhile.
What has Europe to do with this ?? If maybe bar the italian governement from funding AZ.
Look, he problem with bending the rules is no problem provided it leads to a real future. In AZ's case it seems people absolutly refuse the loss of 1200 jobs over 11000,which,according to " reliable sources " should lead to saving 9000 jobs. if so, then screw the rules. Apparently, AZ unions seem to think they're going to have it both ways.
I Ford. You can't be serious. Your masters were readily decided to set you free. No one, however, seemed to like the taste of the medecine, so we call in a new...........er...hell ! .bad metaphore again...........well, new master who, you ( not personal ) think is going to save the day. I hope for your sake he does but the mere fact AF share rose almost 4% today and AZ stopped being traded should tell you what kind of confidence " Old Ebeneze Scrooge " has in the plan.
yeah well, AZ could just copy AFs strategy of not too long ago [/ 
Reading above messages really points to Europe as being only a sorry failure, surely not the united force it could be 
Look, he problem with bending the rules is no problem provided it leads to a real future. In AZ's case it seems people absolutly refuse the loss of 1200 jobs over 11000,which,according to " reliable sources " should lead to saving 9000 jobs. if so, then screw the rules. Apparently, AZ unions seem to think they're going to have it both ways.
I would have liked to join a large and successful group like AF/KLM but our masters decided otherwise, for time being.
AZ is not going to go bankrupt, but I'm afraid it is not going to be let free soon either
AZ is not going to go bankrupt, but I'm afraid it is not going to be let free soon either
Last edited by Me Myself; 3rd Apr 2008 at 17:24.
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I-Ford
There's nothing in this for Sarkozy.
Culturally: AF + AZ = can get along. KL + AZ = you gotta be kidding. KLM have no say?
As long as there are people wanting to fly in and around Italy there'll be jobs for those carrying them. Too bad it won't be on Alitalia.
AZA/ANPAC has been on a suicide trip for 15 years, and when folks start talking "Flag Carrier" we can be sure they're out of touch.
I was close to Swissair. The airline that could never go bankrupt. AZA can and will. RIP Alitalia, but you will not be missed.
Culturally: AF + AZ = can get along. KL + AZ = you gotta be kidding. KLM have no say?
As long as there are people wanting to fly in and around Italy there'll be jobs for those carrying them. Too bad it won't be on Alitalia.
AZA/ANPAC has been on a suicide trip for 15 years, and when folks start talking "Flag Carrier" we can be sure they're out of touch.
I was close to Swissair. The airline that could never go bankrupt. AZA can and will. RIP Alitalia, but you will not be missed.
Last edited by Dysag; 3rd Apr 2008 at 20:05.
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ignorance kills
Who said SWISSAIR never packs up? By own painful experience I can tell that ignorance makes a complete airline go down the drain with no difficulty. At the current cash loss rate we may be only days away from the first fuel company asking for cash. And that will be the moment when things become really exciting.
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Financial Times Comment
“Alitalia and the politicians of Italy deserve its ignominious end. It will go into bankruptcy and both political parties will blame each other. The unions, most guilty of all, will say they had nothing to do with it.”
There, in a nutshell, you have it.
There, in a nutshell, you have it.
Fox Niner Wrote:
I'm sorry for this thread drift, but I can't take that comment seriously. The EU is probably the biggest collection of self interested individuals sponging off the populace of Europe and has become a haven for discredited politicians who in normal [business] life would be serving prison terms for fraud but instead are on the gravy train for life with free first class travel, subsidised secondary housing and 100% index-linked pensions.
The EU was conceived as an arrangement between France & Germany in the post war years as a mechanism within the respective National Governments to dispasionately review the other's legislation and financial aid policies as a means to remove intentional barriers to intercountry trade, originally dealing principally with Iron, Coal & Steel.
Now instead of a being handled by the respective trade & finance ministries, we have a Parliament, A Commission, A Rapid Reaction Force & God alone knows how many Quango's each has spawned. Now we are shrtly to have a formal EU constitution & it appears a permanent presidency thrust down our throats to suit current political ends
It is a little publicised & little known fact, but also a damning indictment that the accounts for the European Commission have been unable to be published for more than five years as the auditors have been unable to complete their work due to what they have described as significant and unquantifiable levels of fraudulent transactions at all levels in each of the various versions of the accounts presented to them for their approval.
I cannot honestly say that I know of any country within Europe where a company or an individual tax payer would be allowed to go for so long without filing auditable accounts. So why is it acceptable for the EU Commision to do this? Why do none of the Governments hold them accountable?
Do not in any way misunderstand me. I fully believe that in due time, not only Europe will be on united entity, but eventually the entire globe will over time come to realise common interests & governance. However, we must remember that in Europe we have yet to go a Generation without conflict & loss of life on the continent. As a continent, We need to lose a little of our own national patriotism and replace it with some continental patriotism first. The EU is a truly laudable aim, but it has been driven way too far, way too soon by politicians who's egos are unable to accept that they may not have the pivotal place in history that they think they deserve.
To get firmly back on track. If the EU wants to restore some faith, they need to have the balls to force whoever is the Italian Government to allow Alitalia to wither or prosper by its own efforts. If no rescue efforts come from within the industry, then they MUST be allowed to fall.
If it does sadly come to pass then let us hope it happens swiftly for all concerned, everyone has been hanging on long enough already.
Excuse me? A sorry failure? The European Union is doing exactly what it is supposed to do!
Mafia-style mismanagement and Italian rule-bending is not accepted any more.
Mafia-style mismanagement and Italian rule-bending is not accepted any more.
The EU was conceived as an arrangement between France & Germany in the post war years as a mechanism within the respective National Governments to dispasionately review the other's legislation and financial aid policies as a means to remove intentional barriers to intercountry trade, originally dealing principally with Iron, Coal & Steel.
Now instead of a being handled by the respective trade & finance ministries, we have a Parliament, A Commission, A Rapid Reaction Force & God alone knows how many Quango's each has spawned. Now we are shrtly to have a formal EU constitution & it appears a permanent presidency thrust down our throats to suit current political ends
It is a little publicised & little known fact, but also a damning indictment that the accounts for the European Commission have been unable to be published for more than five years as the auditors have been unable to complete their work due to what they have described as significant and unquantifiable levels of fraudulent transactions at all levels in each of the various versions of the accounts presented to them for their approval.
I cannot honestly say that I know of any country within Europe where a company or an individual tax payer would be allowed to go for so long without filing auditable accounts. So why is it acceptable for the EU Commision to do this? Why do none of the Governments hold them accountable?
Do not in any way misunderstand me. I fully believe that in due time, not only Europe will be on united entity, but eventually the entire globe will over time come to realise common interests & governance. However, we must remember that in Europe we have yet to go a Generation without conflict & loss of life on the continent. As a continent, We need to lose a little of our own national patriotism and replace it with some continental patriotism first. The EU is a truly laudable aim, but it has been driven way too far, way too soon by politicians who's egos are unable to accept that they may not have the pivotal place in history that they think they deserve.
To get firmly back on track. If the EU wants to restore some faith, they need to have the balls to force whoever is the Italian Government to allow Alitalia to wither or prosper by its own efforts. If no rescue efforts come from within the industry, then they MUST be allowed to fall.
If it does sadly come to pass then let us hope it happens swiftly for all concerned, everyone has been hanging on long enough already.
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The epicentre of our world is slowly moving east
DUBAI, U.A.E., 3rd April, 2008 - Trend-setting Emirates Airline will soon offer non-stop daily flights to Italy's fashion hub of Milan, as well as the nation's capital Rome, bringing a new tailored approach to its Italian services. From July 1st, Emirates' flights from Dubai to Milan and Rome will both be direct, non stop and running seven days a week - bringing more convenience and comfort to passengers, just eight months after the airline launched its Venice service.
Alitalia will never stand a chance....
Alitalia will never stand a chance....
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Will have to wait until Berlusconi wins the elections, calls his friend Sarkozy and puts an end to this comedy.
On what planet and what century do you live ? You surely mistake Sarkozy Elysée palace with Louis the 14 th Versailles palace. Sure he's got an italian wife who isn't Madame de Montespant however. Let her play the guitar and show her tits.
You must have had a tad too many chiantis here. AF isn't AZ, we're a private compagny where the state only holds roughly 12 %. We've got things like a board of directors, shareholders, things that are alltogether very mysterious to you, I know.
Berlusconi will do nothing and Sarkozy CAN do NOTHING. Wake up and smell the coffee. The music just stopped and there ain't enough chairs for everyone. It's just OVER.
Culturally: AF + AZ = can get along. KL + AZ = you gotta be kidding. KLM have no say?
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AF and AZ can get along because they both come from countries where people think state aid and intervention in running a business is normal, where unions want a role in management, and where firms can't cut staff without facing a mighty uproar.
Having said that, Spinetta is doing a better job than Willy Walsh but nobody would be able to turn Alitalia round.
Conseil d'administration Air France:
10 membres représentant les actionnaires
8 représentants l'État !
2 représentants les actionnaires salariés
6 représentants les salariés (voix consultative)
Having said that, Spinetta is doing a better job than Willy Walsh but nobody would be able to turn Alitalia round.
Conseil d'administration Air France:
10 membres représentant les actionnaires
8 représentants l'État !
2 représentants les actionnaires salariés
6 représentants les salariés (voix consultative)
Last edited by Dysag; 4th Apr 2008 at 06:25.
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I do believe that Mr. Spinetta is doing a commendable job and AF/KLM is looking better than ever (with still a lot of work to do, I assume). The same applies to Mr. Mayrhuber at LH.
But let's not forget that those 2 companies do serve strong home markets and are thriving due to a certain monopoly that they have been granted a long time ago (and which they are defending at all cost).
Alitalia still is heavily subsidized - the same sort of protection applies to LH and KLM/AF, but they have made their homework in the meantime and they are able to compete on a worldwide playing field.
In Germany there are rumours that LH is looking into a takeover of AZ. I personally couldn't care less, but I certainly hope that they think twice about this!
But let's not forget that those 2 companies do serve strong home markets and are thriving due to a certain monopoly that they have been granted a long time ago (and which they are defending at all cost).
Alitalia still is heavily subsidized - the same sort of protection applies to LH and KLM/AF, but they have made their homework in the meantime and they are able to compete on a worldwide playing field.
In Germany there are rumours that LH is looking into a takeover of AZ. I personally couldn't care less, but I certainly hope that they think twice about this!
Paxing All Over The World
F4F
Not at all! Europe is simply a place that has been around for a long time and so many of it's companies and institutions are reaching the natural end of their lives. No company can live for ever and the reasons that they de are numerous. AZ has reached the end of it's life - but may be 'resuscitated' one more time, as it has in the past. But, ultimately, too much time has gone by and they will not be able, now to recover to top league status. AF and KLM made the tough decisions a while back and are healthier now.
Note that my observations say nothing about the EU, only about the natural life span of a company. AZ has done a lot to limit it's own life, as has BA this week, for example.
Reading above messages really points to Europe as being only a sorry failure, surely not the united force it could be.
Note that my observations say nothing about the EU, only about the natural life span of a company. AZ has done a lot to limit it's own life, as has BA this week, for example.
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Alitalia still is heavily subsidized - the same sort of protection applies to LH and KLM/AF, but they have made their homework in the meantime and they are able to compete on a worldwide playing field.
LH and AF are both private compagnies, traded at the Frankfurt Börse and the Paris stock exchange. Subsidies, as you don't seem to know, are forbidden by Brussels. The french shredded a bit of that rule.........15 years ago, Germans, as usuall, stuck to the rule. Anyhoo, both, as you say did their homework. Germans because that's all they know, french because they came to their senses ( Thank God ! ) and also because french politicians ( for whom I have no particular fuzzy feelings ) are not the mafia , cheap fast food maners like buffoons italians choose to be represented by.
Since 1993, AF hasn't gotten a penny from the state who by the way only holds around 12 % of the shares.
Sure thing, both states support their national airlines when it comes to slots and alike. Don't expect me to complain about it. I don't recall the British government trying to make BA's life miserable.
LH and AF are both private compagnies, traded at the Frankfurt Börse and the Paris stock exchange. Subsidies, as you don't seem to know, are forbidden by Brussels. The french shredded a bit of that rule.........15 years ago, Germans, as usuall, stuck to the rule. Anyhoo, both, as you say did their homework. Germans because that's all they know, french because they came to their senses ( Thank God ! ) and also because french politicians ( for whom I have no particular fuzzy feelings ) are not the mafia , cheap fast food maners like buffoons italians choose to be represented by.
Since 1993, AF hasn't gotten a penny from the state who by the way only holds around 12 % of the shares.
Sure thing, both states support their national airlines when it comes to slots and alike. Don't expect me to complain about it. I don't recall the British government trying to make BA's life miserable.
Last edited by Me Myself; 4th Apr 2008 at 16:12.
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....you Guys keep thinking that AZ is doomed because any other company,in the same position,would have been...and keep forgetting that AZ is not private: it is a Flag Carrier owned by the Italian Gov.
This is a blessing and a curse.
Up to the mid 70's AZ was doing great (was one of the Major), we had a good management and not much political interference,somewhere along the line that changed and,to make a long story short, here we are now.
EU rules did not help out either, we were watched closely ,maybe a bit too closely (pressure by other competitors? definitely!)
So: AZ has not been managed in a competitive market oriented way, and that is the curse part of the deal,but,in the meantime,everybody has kept his job,that being the blessing one.
We shall see in the next few days if this curse/blessing thing is still "operational"
This is a blessing and a curse.
Up to the mid 70's AZ was doing great (was one of the Major), we had a good management and not much political interference,somewhere along the line that changed and,to make a long story short, here we are now.
EU rules did not help out either, we were watched closely ,maybe a bit too closely (pressure by other competitors? definitely!)
So: AZ has not been managed in a competitive market oriented way, and that is the curse part of the deal,but,in the meantime,everybody has kept his job,that being the blessing one.
We shall see in the next few days if this curse/blessing thing is still "operational"
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Just back from MXP... terminal 1 looks pretty much deserted, but for the cargo area 
As for terminal 2, it has taken a very nice color, say kindda orange
Com'on eZ, let's grow before AirOne does, you might even want to employ some of AZs pilots
Donkey497
live 2 fly 2 live
As for terminal 2, it has taken a very nice color, say kindda orange
Com'on eZ, let's grow before AirOne does, you might even want to employ some of AZs pilots
Donkey497
We need to lose a little of our own national patriotism and replace it with some continental patriotism
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MD, I can't believe the denial you live in. Ever heard of Swissair and Sabena ?
Up to the mid 70's, AZ like all other european airlines was........er.....profitable because no one gave a hoot about profitability. National carriers where there to wave the flag around the world and possibly sell a few Fiat, BMW's or Peugeot, make employees happy cruising around the world and stuff the costs. The tax payer was here to foot the bill. We all went along with it thinking we were Gods by birthright having a grand time,( oh yeah a grand time !
) and understanding absolute nada about running a compagny. Trust me, if it could go on today.......I'd sign in right away...........but I need to put steack on the table.
With the price of oil soaring it became a totally different ball game to which airlines, including Luftahansa who almost went tits up in 92, had a lot of trouble adjusting. AF fringed doom's day in 93. You could / should have learned from that. Do not tell me for one minute that you didn't see it coming.
Sorry mate, but AZ service is just appalling and I don't think many people will challenge that. AZ certainly doesn't match the bulk of other european airlines when it comes to service, ontime and bags etc......., but you people refuse to see that. Ok, nothing wrong here. There are just consequences that you are not going to like. Who would ??
You can't drop the bad service on politician's laps. That's AZ employees responsability, not the politicians.
What is happening now, regardless of the future, is just destroying the travelling public's confidence, long haul bookings are already down 40%. People don't want to end up at the other side of the world with a ticket and no aircraft to board.
I would be very surprised if Spinetta came back, specially with Berlusconi coming in. What a waste of his time it would be.
The very " unnegociable " conditions your unions are ready to ( re )negociate about are just unreal. Do you think for 1 second that taking in another state consortium into the deal is acceptable ??? That's just keeping Italy's worst demons in the shop. This offer alone would make a wooden horse die of laughter.
MD, just did a bit of reseach on your previous posts. Now, what do you think of that ?? Only 10 days ago. Ouch !
Up to the mid 70's, AZ like all other european airlines was........er.....profitable because no one gave a hoot about profitability. National carriers where there to wave the flag around the world and possibly sell a few Fiat, BMW's or Peugeot, make employees happy cruising around the world and stuff the costs. The tax payer was here to foot the bill. We all went along with it thinking we were Gods by birthright having a grand time,( oh yeah a grand time !
) and understanding absolute nada about running a compagny. Trust me, if it could go on today.......I'd sign in right away...........but I need to put steack on the table.With the price of oil soaring it became a totally different ball game to which airlines, including Luftahansa who almost went tits up in 92, had a lot of trouble adjusting. AF fringed doom's day in 93. You could / should have learned from that. Do not tell me for one minute that you didn't see it coming.
Sorry mate, but AZ service is just appalling and I don't think many people will challenge that. AZ certainly doesn't match the bulk of other european airlines when it comes to service, ontime and bags etc......., but you people refuse to see that. Ok, nothing wrong here. There are just consequences that you are not going to like. Who would ??
You can't drop the bad service on politician's laps. That's AZ employees responsability, not the politicians.
What is happening now, regardless of the future, is just destroying the travelling public's confidence, long haul bookings are already down 40%. People don't want to end up at the other side of the world with a ticket and no aircraft to board.
I would be very surprised if Spinetta came back, specially with Berlusconi coming in. What a waste of his time it would be.
The very " unnegociable " conditions your unions are ready to ( re )negociate about are just unreal. Do you think for 1 second that taking in another state consortium into the deal is acceptable ??? That's just keeping Italy's worst demons in the shop. This offer alone would make a wooden horse die of laughter.
do not be so sure that Alitalia is a "goner"... Unions are tough but not stupid...they will find a way out..
Last edited by Me Myself; 4th Apr 2008 at 17:19.
md4490
Keep dreaming! Look at the history, look at the cashflow (= going out 1miljon a day?)
180 pilots for 5 cargo airplanes.......get real!
Talk to your union or berlosconi (did i spell that1 right??), will he put another bucket of money in this doomed airline to prove he so-called is right??
Ciao
Keep dreaming! Look at the history, look at the cashflow (= going out 1miljon a day?)
180 pilots for 5 cargo airplanes.......get real!
Talk to your union or berlosconi (did i spell that1 right??), will he put another bucket of money in this doomed airline to prove he so-called is right??
Ciao
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....hey Guys I just tried to shed same light on the situation...
Fact is they are working on it:the Gov. and the Unions...the last thing they want (I know MeM. doesn't believe me) is to close down the shop...that could produce havoc in Italy...nobody wants that ever and especially so close to election day.
I'm not in denial I'm just fatalistic...I've seen my share of "situations" in 20 years of AZ...and in a lifetime in Italy; a rabbit usually pops out of the hat..will it happen this time? will the rabbit be AF or LH or Aeroflot or "stand alone"? I do not know...it may be that there are no more rabbits left (even though CDG is full of it..
)..we'll see...
One thing for sure: tomorrow Fco-Ssh-Nap...still flying for the time being
Fact is they are working on it:the Gov. and the Unions...the last thing they want (I know MeM. doesn't believe me) is to close down the shop...that could produce havoc in Italy...nobody wants that ever and especially so close to election day.
I'm not in denial I'm just fatalistic...I've seen my share of "situations" in 20 years of AZ...and in a lifetime in Italy; a rabbit usually pops out of the hat..will it happen this time? will the rabbit be AF or LH or Aeroflot or "stand alone"? I do not know...it may be that there are no more rabbits left (even though CDG is full of it..
)..we'll see...One thing for sure: tomorrow Fco-Ssh-Nap...still flying for the time being
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MD, I don't wish to come across as harsh, but mate you are in denial.
No one in De Gaulle head office feels like popping out of your hat anymore.
Maybe Merlin Berlusconi is going to come up with some nice trick, but as far as AF KLM is concerned I wouldn't hold my breath.
You guys did everything possible to drive Spinetta away and that's not including Berlusconi. One thing I know about my boss is that he is rather straightfoward, the slamming doors, coming back, leaving again screaming mamamia isn't the way he's behaved in all the years he's been at the helm. Good for him because honestly, your ways would drive me absolutly cookoo.
Don't forget your credit card or better, stop at that ATM on your way to ........er.........work ? You may have to pay for fuel.
No one in De Gaulle head office feels like popping out of your hat anymore.
Maybe Merlin Berlusconi is going to come up with some nice trick, but as far as AF KLM is concerned I wouldn't hold my breath.
You guys did everything possible to drive Spinetta away and that's not including Berlusconi. One thing I know about my boss is that he is rather straightfoward, the slamming doors, coming back, leaving again screaming mamamia isn't the way he's behaved in all the years he's been at the helm. Good for him because honestly, your ways would drive me absolutly cookoo.
One thing for sure: tomorrow Fco-Ssh-Nap...still flying for the time being
Last edited by Me Myself; 5th Apr 2008 at 04:28.
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Let's summarize the facts:
a) the company is bleeding cash at an alarming rate ( ~1 mio € per day in the past 2 months )
b) bookings ( = trust from customers ) are down 40%
c) corporate customers are increasingly reluctant to pay for the tickets in advance
d) private customers fear that they pay for something and will never see delivery
d) creditors ( banks, leasing companies, suppliers are getting nervous)
Currently the estimate is, that they are loosing closer to 2 Mio € per day.
Do customers and creditors trust the little clown Berlusconi or is somebody pulling the plug any day now and puts AZ on advance payment? This would trigger a chain reaction as it did with Swissair/Sabena and force AZ into bankruptcy.
Ok, the unions threaten that they will shut down all airports in Italy, so what ? Will we again see crews using their private credit cards to pay for fuel?
The little clown Berlusconi cited recently some possible Italian investors. He was daydreaming, as they all rushed to declare their non interest / non willingness. Unless little Silvio comes up with a major fraudulent solution ( which he is determined to do to save his "renovated" face ) AZ is toast.
Frank
a) the company is bleeding cash at an alarming rate ( ~1 mio € per day in the past 2 months )
b) bookings ( = trust from customers ) are down 40%
c) corporate customers are increasingly reluctant to pay for the tickets in advance
d) private customers fear that they pay for something and will never see delivery
d) creditors ( banks, leasing companies, suppliers are getting nervous)
Currently the estimate is, that they are loosing closer to 2 Mio € per day.
Do customers and creditors trust the little clown Berlusconi or is somebody pulling the plug any day now and puts AZ on advance payment? This would trigger a chain reaction as it did with Swissair/Sabena and force AZ into bankruptcy.
Ok, the unions threaten that they will shut down all airports in Italy, so what ? Will we again see crews using their private credit cards to pay for fuel?
The little clown Berlusconi cited recently some possible Italian investors. He was daydreaming, as they all rushed to declare their non interest / non willingness. Unless little Silvio comes up with a major fraudulent solution ( which he is determined to do to save his "renovated" face ) AZ is toast.
Frank