Air France
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(Digression warning) It never ceases to amaze me that Zidane can head-butt one of our players during a world cup final in front of two million spectators and it is Materazzi who ends up the bully... amazing bit of gallic logic that. 
But back on topic...
No mate (Me Myself that is), you read wayy too much into my posts... or not enough... I frankly very much doubt that beautiful Carla has anything to do with this! (too bad, would render everything a little jollier n'est-ce pas?)
I think the levels involved here are major national unions, government (but not wives!) and BIG industry, with much going on behind the scenes that we are not aware of.
Just my two lira worth...
But back on topic...
Elysée Palace, the official residence of the president and his............italian wife. Is this the connection you see ??
I think the levels involved here are major national unions, government (but not wives!) and BIG industry, with much going on behind the scenes that we are not aware of.
Just my two lira worth...
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...hi Guys just back from the cockpit...no garbage in Naples...no problems in getting fuel...
...and looks like JCS did not slam the door for good...after all he did not do anything wrong......he just came to deal with a different proposal and non negotiable..
..maybe he got upset because he did not receive a "red carpet" reception..
.well too bad ..he should have known better after sitting for over two years in the AZ board...but maybe he did know better and what is happening it is not just a random event...now a bunch of AZ people is begging to be "saved" by AF...saved my (3 letters word) if you ask me...but it is not in my hands...I think this farce will go on until after election day (next week)...
...and looks like JCS did not slam the door for good...after all he did not do anything wrong......he just came to deal with a different proposal and non negotiable..
..maybe he got upset because he did not receive a "red carpet" reception...well too bad ..he should have known better after sitting for over two years in the AZ board...but maybe he did know better and what is happening it is not just a random event...now a bunch of AZ people is begging to be "saved" by AF...saved my (3 letters word) if you ask me...but it is not in my hands...I think this farce will go on until after election day (next week)...
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No garbage in Naples ??? Are you sure you were not in Zurich ??
3 letters ??? You mean ass ? woooooooooooops. Uncle Prune is going to be very upset.
begging to be "saved" by AF...saved my (3 letters word)
Last edited by Me Myself; 7th Apr 2008 at 20:47.
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MeMy,
I was just referrring to the many of fine AZ crews who helped their stranded SR collegues in many locations back in 2001.
AZ does not have money today to buy toothbrushes, nor could they afford to bail out SR back in 2001.
This thread is turning into a general AZ bashing, not all of AZ employees ( especially the airborne kind ) are morons. AZ is IMHO just another example of an airline run into the ground by the lethal combination of sloppy management, political interference and yesterday unions.
I am not so sure about Eastern, Northern or Northwestern European Airlines easily stepping in and picking up the Italian traffic. Bear in mind that the same stupid unions are also in combination with organised crime ever present at the Italian airports. The only choice for the Milanese would be Lugano Agno which is out of reach for the Italian unions. However choice of planes is limited there due to the short RWY and the steep approach ( plus Milano ATC). Only Crossair Moritz Suter, the biggest charlatan in the European airline industry got away with breaking the legal rules for years by landing with poorly trained pilots and non steep approach certified aircraft in LUG.
Looks currently like a gridlock!
Frank
PS: I am 100% sure that you will never see a German stork. Maybe we will see more blue yellow cranes in Italy!
I was just referrring to the many of fine AZ crews who helped their stranded SR collegues in many locations back in 2001.
AZ does not have money today to buy toothbrushes, nor could they afford to bail out SR back in 2001.
This thread is turning into a general AZ bashing, not all of AZ employees ( especially the airborne kind ) are morons. AZ is IMHO just another example of an airline run into the ground by the lethal combination of sloppy management, political interference and yesterday unions.
I am not so sure about Eastern, Northern or Northwestern European Airlines easily stepping in and picking up the Italian traffic. Bear in mind that the same stupid unions are also in combination with organised crime ever present at the Italian airports. The only choice for the Milanese would be Lugano Agno which is out of reach for the Italian unions. However choice of planes is limited there due to the short RWY and the steep approach ( plus Milano ATC). Only Crossair Moritz Suter, the biggest charlatan in the European airline industry got away with breaking the legal rules for years by landing with poorly trained pilots and non steep approach certified aircraft in LUG.
Looks currently like a gridlock!
Frank
PS: I am 100% sure that you will never see a German stork. Maybe we will see more blue yellow cranes in Italy!
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Fendant
I don't know that this thread is turning into an AZ bashing. There are however people like me among others, who are extremely concerned about this deal possibly going through.
All of what you're saying about mafia, yesteryears unions etc........is going to make spend a sleepless night, thank you very much.
I have said it a lot of times on this thread, I will feel a lot better, along with a lot of people I know, if this doesn't go through.
If you are an ex Swissair, then you will connect with this. I don't want to see my compagny and my job along with it go down the drain because of unwise management. Maybe we're just doing too well and JCS is becoming a bit light headed with success.
Mr Brugisser had the same ambition, buying everything that was for sale, usually hopeless cases with the consequences we all know.
I'd rather keep my toothbrush.
AZ is a fruitcake and can only be managed by fruitcakes.
I don't know that this thread is turning into an AZ bashing. There are however people like me among others, who are extremely concerned about this deal possibly going through.
All of what you're saying about mafia, yesteryears unions etc........is going to make spend a sleepless night, thank you very much.
I have said it a lot of times on this thread, I will feel a lot better, along with a lot of people I know, if this doesn't go through.
If you are an ex Swissair, then you will connect with this. I don't want to see my compagny and my job along with it go down the drain because of unwise management. Maybe we're just doing too well and JCS is becoming a bit light headed with success.
Mr Brugisser had the same ambition, buying everything that was for sale, usually hopeless cases with the consequences we all know.
I'd rather keep my toothbrush.
AZ is a fruitcake and can only be managed by fruitcakes.
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I can understand the reluctance of AF staff and pilots to get involved in the messy restructuring of AZ operations. I can also measure the reactions of KL representatives, who were judged to be in violation of the KL/AZ agreement and who were ordered by an arbitration court to pay EUR 250 million to AZ in 2002.
Nevertheless, IMHO, AF needs to have a strong Southern European hub; there are different trade-offs to having this hub in Spain or in Italy. JCS has proven over the years that he is a skillfull operator and an effective leader with a strategic vision. Losing both the opportunities for taking over IB and AZ would be, in my personal opinion, a setback on the road to making AF a major global player, based on several continents, at the time it is trying to bolster a DL/NW alliance and looking at a major Asian partner.
Nevertheless, IMHO, AF needs to have a strong Southern European hub; there are different trade-offs to having this hub in Spain or in Italy. JCS has proven over the years that he is a skillfull operator and an effective leader with a strategic vision. Losing both the opportunities for taking over IB and AZ would be, in my personal opinion, a setback on the road to making AF a major global player, based on several continents, at the time it is trying to bolster a DL/NW alliance and looking at a major Asian partner.
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MeMy,
you are rightly concerned about JCS. Basically the takeover of Sabena by SR was not a bad idea, when the rightwings succeeded to win the vote against Europa. Goetz ( predecessor of Bruggisser ) fault was that he did not concentrate all SR forces on cleaning house in Brussels and break the power of the Belgian unions and fire the sloppiest SN employees.
Instead he then developped the "Hunter" strategy and invested into or bought every crappy fledgling airline in Euope and abroad ( like Air Litter All ). The final nail in the coffin for SR was LTU.
JCS seems to be copying this by announcing that he would invest into a merged DL/NW. Me thinks that the task of fixing DL/NW is a gargantuous task already ( if not impossible in view of the coming US recession ). Fixing AZ at the same time would certainly endanger AZ/KL, even with the combined AF/KL resources. I think this should be an either/or. Both are IMHO risky undertakings.
Do you still remember the "Alcazar" project ( KL, SK, SR, OS ) ?
Frank
you are rightly concerned about JCS. Basically the takeover of Sabena by SR was not a bad idea, when the rightwings succeeded to win the vote against Europa. Goetz ( predecessor of Bruggisser ) fault was that he did not concentrate all SR forces on cleaning house in Brussels and break the power of the Belgian unions and fire the sloppiest SN employees.
Instead he then developped the "Hunter" strategy and invested into or bought every crappy fledgling airline in Euope and abroad ( like Air Litter All ). The final nail in the coffin for SR was LTU.
JCS seems to be copying this by announcing that he would invest into a merged DL/NW. Me thinks that the task of fixing DL/NW is a gargantuous task already ( if not impossible in view of the coming US recession ). Fixing AZ at the same time would certainly endanger AZ/KL, even with the combined AF/KL resources. I think this should be an either/or. Both are IMHO risky undertakings.
Do you still remember the "Alcazar" project ( KL, SK, SR, OS ) ?
Frank
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Fendant
Why do you keep disrupting my peace of mind in the evening ??? I know all of that and this is giving me an ulcer.
Just finihed an article in the paper about the coming italian election and how a lot of politician were heavily involved with the mafia.
All of what you say is absolutly spot on. NW/DL would be the largest money losing airline. We've heard nothing so far.
Blessed be the Dutch as I know they refrain JCS somehow. They still have a vivid memory of AZ.
Having said that, Jouy is also right and AF / KLM and Luftansa will be scavenging the remains.
AZ is just going to go under, surely but not quietly I'm sure.
Main_dog, your scenario of " more than meet the eye " is ludicrous trust me. It's just AF / KLM and AZ............and probably a few crooked politicians '( what an oxymoron ) about whom the french governement doesn't give dung. But I know you have a lot of trouble accepting it.
AZ pilots think the world can't revolve without them..........well, that's exactly what my aussie friends believed 19 years ago and 600 of them had to leave their country. But who remembers that today ? I supsect you do main_dog.
Why do you keep disrupting my peace of mind in the evening ??? I know all of that and this is giving me an ulcer.
Just finihed an article in the paper about the coming italian election and how a lot of politician were heavily involved with the mafia.
All of what you say is absolutly spot on. NW/DL would be the largest money losing airline. We've heard nothing so far.
Blessed be the Dutch as I know they refrain JCS somehow. They still have a vivid memory of AZ.
Having said that, Jouy is also right and AF / KLM and Luftansa will be scavenging the remains.
AZ is just going to go under, surely but not quietly I'm sure.
Main_dog, your scenario of " more than meet the eye " is ludicrous trust me. It's just AF / KLM and AZ............and probably a few crooked politicians '( what an oxymoron ) about whom the french governement doesn't give dung. But I know you have a lot of trouble accepting it.
AZ pilots think the world can't revolve without them..........well, that's exactly what my aussie friends believed 19 years ago and 600 of them had to leave their country. But who remembers that today ? I supsect you do main_dog.
Last edited by Me Myself; 22nd Apr 2008 at 16:23.
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fendant,
Quote : "he then developped the "Hunter" strategy and invested into or bought every crappy fledgling airline in Euope and abroad ( like Air Litter All ). "
That's in my books is called "revisionism". Had the Swissair management had a better sense of European realities (forgot :how could they ? They voted not to know ) and a sensible business plan - which they never showed -, they could have made a success of at least some of their purchases.
The example of air Littoral, which was a viable regional airline shows their ineptitude. It's interesting to know that Britair and AF had approached the Air Lit management in order to form / consolidate the *Regional* part of air France, but not at any cost. Until then, Air Lit was a successful entity. As Britair is still now.
Get your facts before you start posting insults.
That's in my books is called "revisionism". Had the Swissair management had a better sense of European realities (forgot :how could they ? They voted not to know ) and a sensible business plan - which they never showed -, they could have made a success of at least some of their purchases.
The example of air Littoral, which was a viable regional airline shows their ineptitude. It's interesting to know that Britair and AF had approached the Air Lit management in order to form / consolidate the *Regional* part of air France, but not at any cost. Until then, Air Lit was a successful entity. As Britair is still now.
Get your facts before you start posting insults.
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Air France-KLM: Alitalia offer is off
Air France scraps Alitalia bid
BBC reporting "Air France scraps Alitalia bid " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7359866.stm
Pegase Driver
Correct, but Nobody expected Alitalia to be still operating by the end of the year as it is today . Whether it is as part of the AF/KL group or not. Looks like Sabena all over again. Sad story.
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Im still recovering from the shock that AZ is STILL operating never mind whether it will survive until the end of the year.
What I do not understand is how Italy seem to get away with pumping money into the carrier against European rules or am I totally missing something?
What I do not understand is how Italy seem to get away with pumping money into the carrier against European rules or am I totally missing something?
Although I am not Italian (but I have links to the country), I am hard pressed to believe that the new government would go down in history as the one that closed AZ (a national institution or icon). Obviously the same could have been said about Swissair but Italy is a different case all together. Anyway I think the deal had failed some weeks ago.
apaddyinuk, this is Italy.
Rwy in Sight
apaddyinuk, this is Italy.
Rwy in Sight
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Rwy in Sight
Who wants a national institution or icon like Alitalia? It gives a bad impression of the country. It's a bit like LHR T5, only it's been around longer. Too long.
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From the Berlusconi/Putin press conference last Friday:
SILVIO BERLUSCONI: ... As for the other issue, the question of Alitalia, the situation remains completely open. There are still ongoing contacts with Air France, and we do not have anything against them. And we have talked about the possibility of creating a large international group, a group of affiliated companies, which would put Alitalia on an equal footing with other carriers, in particular Air France.
And I have to say that, once negotiations with Air France are over, then we will be able to talk about how to increase international involvement in the project. We discussed with President Putin the possibility of involving Aeroflot in this international project. Aeroflot has expressed its own interest in participating, and we discussed the possibility of organising a roundtable discussion, a forum in which representatives of Aeroflot and Alitalia can sit down together and discuss possible further cooperation, and perhaps sign an agreement to establish an international group of affiliated companies.
With regard to the last part of your question, I would say that the question of European funding is secondary. The main thing is to resolve the issue on its merits and make sure Alitalia remains the principal Italian carrier, the principal instrument for ensuring tourism and tourist links to our country. As you know, Italy has about 50 per cent of the world's cultural heritage, which is the main reason our country attracts so many tourists.
VLADIMIR PUTIN: We actually discussed this issue today. Mr Berlusconi presented his ideas for resolving this problem. It is clear that he is concerned about the preservation of the largest national carrier and is thinking about national economic interests. It is a difficult situation: you need to pay off debts and make the company profitable, and you probably need to talk about the company's reorganisation. And you cannot avoid negotiations with the government or with the trade unions. The alternative proposed by Mr Berlusconi was acceptable because it called for the resumption of contacts and an exchange of views. I talked today with Aeroflot's chairman of the board: they are ready to resume contacts with their Italian counterparts. Of course we don't know what the result will be: these are business negotiations.
And I have to say that, once negotiations with Air France are over, then we will be able to talk about how to increase international involvement in the project. We discussed with President Putin the possibility of involving Aeroflot in this international project. Aeroflot has expressed its own interest in participating, and we discussed the possibility of organising a roundtable discussion, a forum in which representatives of Aeroflot and Alitalia can sit down together and discuss possible further cooperation, and perhaps sign an agreement to establish an international group of affiliated companies.
With regard to the last part of your question, I would say that the question of European funding is secondary. The main thing is to resolve the issue on its merits and make sure Alitalia remains the principal Italian carrier, the principal instrument for ensuring tourism and tourist links to our country. As you know, Italy has about 50 per cent of the world's cultural heritage, which is the main reason our country attracts so many tourists.
VLADIMIR PUTIN: We actually discussed this issue today. Mr Berlusconi presented his ideas for resolving this problem. It is clear that he is concerned about the preservation of the largest national carrier and is thinking about national economic interests. It is a difficult situation: you need to pay off debts and make the company profitable, and you probably need to talk about the company's reorganisation. And you cannot avoid negotiations with the government or with the trade unions. The alternative proposed by Mr Berlusconi was acceptable because it called for the resumption of contacts and an exchange of views. I talked today with Aeroflot's chairman of the board: they are ready to resume contacts with their Italian counterparts. Of course we don't know what the result will be: these are business negotiations.