IRELAND WEST AIRPORT KNOCK
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Looking forward to seeing badly needed new ei regional atr 72 600s when they enter service in may.hopefully it will be. Regular on bhx route.
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we need jet service on man route to bring back pax numbers
The prop/jet point is often dismissed and of course it's better to have an economical route and frequency, but that usually means higher average fares also. Even on newer ATRs you'll still see people on social media complaining about downgrade of DUB-UK routes to EIR, like this week:
Tw*et "Does this mean EI removing AirBus from Dub>Man route? Ewww"
Indeed it should be included in the airports charges as its very miss leading to passengers ...
I don't think it's easy to backtrack now, while dropping it might attract more users, FR would kick up a right stink and possibly pull routes if charges were passed back to them, other marginal routes like EDI would go.
The dev fee probably indirectly stimulates demand by keeping airline charges and overall fares down. I don't see it going until they get a stable funding source from Government, develop income from business park and aviation services and pax numbers pass 1m.
Parking is cheaper at Dublin....
I'll still always choose convenience, ease and time saving of direct local air service and it's almost always cheaper in my experience all in.
Last edited by sawtooth; 15th Feb 2013 at 09:53.
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How much of a detriment do we think the departure tax has?
I have a few pals at work (here in London) from Westport and they will often fly to Knock, but come home from SNN or DUB as they say "You have to pay extra to fly from Knock".
Last year I flew to Knock but flew home from Dublin. Admittedly that was to try the new Southend service :-) but I do remember the feeling when I read about the extra charge. It wasn't to check what the overall taxes were.
I have a few pals at work (here in London) from Westport and they will often fly to Knock, but come home from SNN or DUB as they say "You have to pay extra to fly from Knock".
Last year I flew to Knock but flew home from Dublin. Admittedly that was to try the new Southend service :-) but I do remember the feeling when I read about the extra charge. It wasn't to check what the overall taxes were.
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I have a few pals at work (here in London) from Westport and they will often fly to Knock, but come home from SNN or DUB as they say "You have to pay extra to fly from Knock".
Are you sure it wasn't down to lack of late flights to get back to UK for work they chose SNN / DUB for services? Sounds more plausible.
How much of a detriment do we think the departure tax has?
Last edited by sawtooth; 15th Feb 2013 at 10:05.
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People generally buy on emotion, and rationalise with logic afterwards.
That's why booking open-jaw doesn't make logical sense, but the reasons they gave is that departure tax.
That's why booking open-jaw doesn't make logical sense, but the reasons they gave is that departure tax.
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When you look at 'Taxes/Fees' just above 'Total Price' in the select phase when booking on Ryanair you will notice that the taxes and fees are actually €10 cheaper at Knock Airport in comparison to Dublin airport. The €10 you pay at Knock evens the total taxes/fees you pay over all, making it the same total cost as Dublin. In the end you are not paying anymore in fee/taxes. I know charging €10 at the gate isn’t ideal but you simply aren’t paying anymore.
"This is a service charge which the Airport charges for the use of its facilities and as a contribution toward infrastructure developments, including passenger and airline services, ongoing maintenance and operation of this airport. "
When an airport decides to associate itself with a LoCo carrier, it should appreciate that LoCo passengers are prepared to put up with all kinds of hassle and poor service. Michael O'Leary says he doesn't care if the terminal is a shed in a field (many of his EU destinations are little more than that) the airport is asking passengers to pay for services that they don't want, the very definition of a rip-off.
The guys from Westport are right - it is cheaper to not fly from Knock, because Dublin and Shannon do not force you to pay 10€ to get to your flight. It's mostly departing passengers that use the shopping and catering facilities, so they're already contributing to the running costs. Other landside costs are irrelevant because few people live on the airport's doorstep, and it might in fact be cheaper for someone to get from Westport to Dublin than Westport to Charlestown.
Unfortunately, for me - someone very interested in developing connections to the West & North Western corner of Ireland - the image of "Knock" is one of a rip-off airport primarily served by a rip-off airline ... and I would have been one of the enthusiastic supporters of Horan International as it was once upon a time.
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Right so what's your solution? How do we get to full service carrier serving 25 routes and a solvent operating airport business with no fees or parking charges?
Last edited by sawtooth; 15th Feb 2013 at 16:59.
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You're being funny, right? You don't get there from here. No disrespect to NOC but no airport with its catchment size can aspire to anything like that.
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Don't think you'll get much of a reply if any from Celtic 'whatever' his name was. 100+ staff wages to find let alone EVERYTHING else that's needed to pay out for with NO MAJOR bail-outs from gvmnt.All the airport are looking for is a bit of stability and fairness in these needy times, an airport that are trying to broaden their shoulders and dig their feet firmly in the quicksand of these hard times.
€10 for goodness sake, hardly a bank breaker to the many. Such a positive place for the West of Ireland, all I can see is Shannon and Dub supporters trying to put IWAK down, or should I say cowering in a corner, hiding behind the hands of Government.
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Rambler, good username by the way. After reading your post the term begrudger springs to mind. Like another poster said, list us visible solutions to the €10 development charge and I'm sure we'll be all ears. What other way can the airport say open and run properly with a charge of this sort, they do not receive large amounts from the government to dig themselves out of holes.
Knowing the roads around Knock this whole cheaper flying out of Dublin from Westport is a silly argument. It takes 45 minutes from Westport to Knock (55k) and 3.5 hours from Westport to Dublin airport (260k). So when you factor in the additional 205k in petrol, tolls and most importantly time (which is most valuable to me) your telling me it's cheaper to fly from Dublin, I'm sorry I've done the calculations on numerous occasions and Knock simply works out better. Just think logically for a minute Rambler, in a return trip how much is 5 hours of your time worth to you, then put on the 410k in petrol (bear in mind fuel is not cheap these days) plus the tolls plus the godforsaken thought of that long drive for what might be a weekend at home. I'm laughing now about your remark that it's cheaper to fly out of Dublin/Shannon because of the €10 development charge! :-)
Honestly, if this story is genuine about lads from Westport, it's more to do with the timing of flights than the price flying from Knock. Without going overboard on how good Knock is, as I know it has it's downsides, it is a reasonable airport to fly out off.
Knowing the roads around Knock this whole cheaper flying out of Dublin from Westport is a silly argument. It takes 45 minutes from Westport to Knock (55k) and 3.5 hours from Westport to Dublin airport (260k). So when you factor in the additional 205k in petrol, tolls and most importantly time (which is most valuable to me) your telling me it's cheaper to fly from Dublin, I'm sorry I've done the calculations on numerous occasions and Knock simply works out better. Just think logically for a minute Rambler, in a return trip how much is 5 hours of your time worth to you, then put on the 410k in petrol (bear in mind fuel is not cheap these days) plus the tolls plus the godforsaken thought of that long drive for what might be a weekend at home. I'm laughing now about your remark that it's cheaper to fly out of Dublin/Shannon because of the €10 development charge! :-)
Honestly, if this story is genuine about lads from Westport, it's more to do with the timing of flights than the price flying from Knock. Without going overboard on how good Knock is, as I know it has it's downsides, it is a reasonable airport to fly out off.
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You're being funny, right
It's easy to diss the place, calling for end of fees and parking and magic unicorns, but they wont suggest an viable alternative. Wonder why.
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Folks, the travelling public vote with their feet and pockets...the reality IS Knock is good value for money and convenient to almost 700,000 customers using the airport, despite the development fee! And in fact it's been paid the ultimate compliment by national government having to bail out the loss making practically bankrupt state owned airport Shannon that was on the way out until its been bailed out. Government now clearly wishes to penalise knock for its success and ensure its own airports remain.
Nobody is forcing passengers to use Knock, if people don't wish to use it then they are perfectly entitled to go to other airports ....however for some strange reason this is not happening as the passenger numbers indicate ...despite all the begrudgers who want to think otherwise
Nobody is forcing passengers to use Knock, if people don't wish to use it then they are perfectly entitled to go to other airports ....however for some strange reason this is not happening as the passenger numbers indicate ...despite all the begrudgers who want to think otherwise
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In some ways nothing has changed for Knock. Shannon has been bailed out by the Government but all along, year in and year out it was being bailed out by the DAA and before them by Aer Rianta. If they go down the road of throwing money at airlines to fly there they will again become a financial basket case. Knock has grown to this level in spite of all these bail outs. The priority now should be for it to attract a hub carrier to LHR, CDG or AMS as well as growth in its sun destinations once the economy starts to recover.
Flights geared towards inbound tourists are proving very difficult to sustain at all of the airports outside of Dublin.
Flights geared towards inbound tourists are proving very difficult to sustain at all of the airports outside of Dublin.
Last edited by ryan2000; 16th Feb 2013 at 07:54.
Mayfly, Mart and Ryan Join Date: Jan 2011
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Maybe in 21st century post-tiger Ireland 27m€ doesn't count as "large amounts" but from where I'm sitting, that's a fair sized handout.
Knowing the roads around Knock this whole cheaper flying out of Dublin from Westport is a silly argument. It takes 45 minutes from Westport to Knock (55k) and 3.5 hours from Westport to Dublin airport (260k). So when you factor in the additional 205k in petrol, tolls and most importantly time (which is most valuable to me) your telling me it's cheaper to fly from Dublin, I'm sorry I've done the calculations on numerous occasions and Knock simply works out better. Just think logically for a minute Rambler, in a return trip how much is 5 hours of your time worth to you, then put on the 410k in petrol (bear in mind fuel is not cheap these days) plus the tolls plus the godforsaken thought of that long drive for what might be a weekend at home. I'm laughing now about your remark that it's cheaper to fly out of Dublin/Shannon because of the €10 development charge! :-)
Of the 700k passengers passing through Knock, I calculate approximately 500k of those use Ryanair. We all know that MO'L is proud to offer a bus service. That means for 71% of passengers Knock is just a glorified bus stop. That's not begrudgery - that's reality.
A couple of decades ago, shops in France used to charge you to go in and have a look around. They eventually figured out that it put people off. What's one of the biggest complaints of today's town centre traders in Ireland - parking charges. When you've got a public-facing business, you do everything possible to encourage the public to come in, not charge them for the privilege of your existence.
Right now, Knock has a captive audience and can extort its 10€, but that makes it vulnerable. The day travellers decide they can get better value for money elsewhere, that source of income will dry up and it sounds like there's nothing in place to replace it. In today's economic climate, there is only one 'visible solution' - be different, be (really) original. Unfortunately, while Knock could be an amazingly unique airport, it isn't. It's just yet another small regional airport with high hopes and no commercial imagination.
And before you ask (again): no, I'm not going to give you a list of what could be done. That's my business, and reserved for somewhere else. But don't worry - we won't be trying to take your Ryanair passengers away.
Last edited by CelticRambler; 16th Feb 2013 at 17:18.
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First off if a ADF is being changed its needs to be a legal requirment to inform passengers under EU or Irish law and this is why Ryanair are getting away with not informing them.
I'm not sure how much of that was received as WAT didn't receive there full funding for the runway but what is correct the Goverment has invested a lot in airport devolpment over the last few years. Nobody can dispute this so don't try to.
They could stay open when airline/passengers charges cover the operatioal costs and not taxing passengers a second time when they come through the door.
Nobody is saying otherwise about how great it is but think how many passengers in 2012 landed at check in and were told pay to leave when they payed for an airline ticket which is suposed to have airport charges included. Its fine for Irish people paying but for people coming into Ireland it creates a very bad impression and will not help NOC attract other carriers in future.
People in glasshouses ... From the airport's website: On 21 February 2007, the Irish Government announced that it was giving €27 million of capital grant money to Ireland West Airport.
Maybe in 21st century post-tiger Ireland 27m€ doesn't count as "large amounts" but from where I'm sitting, that's a fair sized handout.
Maybe in 21st century post-tiger Ireland 27m€ doesn't count as "large amounts" but from where I'm sitting, that's a fair sized handout.
What other way can the airport say open and run properly with a charge of this sort, they do not receive large amounts from the government to dig themselves out of holes.
Folks, the travelling public vote with their feet and pockets...the reality IS Knock is good value for money and convenient to almost 700,000 customers using the airport, despite the development fee! And in fact it's been paid the ultimate compliment by national government having to bail out the loss making practically bankrupt state owned airport Shannon that was on the way out until its been bailed out. Government now clearly wishes to penalise knock for its success and ensure its own airports remain.
Nobody is forcing passengers to use Knock, if people don't wish to use it then they are perfectly entitled to go to other airports ....however for some strange reason this is not happening as the passenger numbers indicate ...despite all the begrudgers who want to think otherwise
Nobody is forcing passengers to use Knock, if people don't wish to use it then they are perfectly entitled to go to other airports ....however for some strange reason this is not happening as the passenger numbers indicate ...despite all the begrudgers who want to think otherwise
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The passenger charge is probably not the foremost item on people's minds when it comes to choosing Knock or Dublin.
The actual fare or time and day of the flight weighs more heavily when they decide. Very often passengers decide when and where they want to go and then find a flight that suits their needs. Loyalty to an airport doesn't even enter their minds!
In general provincial passengers tend to put up with the hassle of travelling to the Capital City airport rather than vice versa. How many Dublin people would travel to Knock or Cork to save a few euro?
The actual fare or time and day of the flight weighs more heavily when they decide. Very often passengers decide when and where they want to go and then find a flight that suits their needs. Loyalty to an airport doesn't even enter their minds!
In general provincial passengers tend to put up with the hassle of travelling to the Capital City airport rather than vice versa. How many Dublin people would travel to Knock or Cork to save a few euro?
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I know for a fact that some pax are driving from Dub to IWAK to save money. I was talking to some people quite recently that said they saved €600 (between 3 of them) by flying from IWAK.
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As stated earlier passengers and the market decides which airport they will use and Knock despite all the "negatives " being portrayed here by some contributors defies the critics with strong growth .
I wonder why?
On the state aid issue mgt at the airport are on the record stating that it received €15m of the €27m approved under T21 before the shutters came down, and matched this with another €15m of airport money to carry out the terminal upgrade, ILS CAT 11, RESA etc.
This compares with €1.6 billion yes billon spent by the state owned DAA on the 3 state airports or 100 times what was granted to Knock. And as part of this €160 million was spent on the terminal and US border post in Shannon, or more than 10 times what was spent in Knock in the same period. To further compound this gov has now decided to bail out Shannon further with another €300m to ensure its survival .....and pay Knock lip service and tell them as recently quoted by minister Varadkar on mid west radio that its a "model airport" and that he uses it as an example to other airports on how they should run their business....if only this was true and gov would take on the DAA and now SAA monopoly in regard to running of airports. At the end of the day gov will ultimate decide on what happens Knock through aviation policy and mgt can only do what it can to try and present the facts to the region it serves
I wonder why?
On the state aid issue mgt at the airport are on the record stating that it received €15m of the €27m approved under T21 before the shutters came down, and matched this with another €15m of airport money to carry out the terminal upgrade, ILS CAT 11, RESA etc.
This compares with €1.6 billion yes billon spent by the state owned DAA on the 3 state airports or 100 times what was granted to Knock. And as part of this €160 million was spent on the terminal and US border post in Shannon, or more than 10 times what was spent in Knock in the same period. To further compound this gov has now decided to bail out Shannon further with another €300m to ensure its survival .....and pay Knock lip service and tell them as recently quoted by minister Varadkar on mid west radio that its a "model airport" and that he uses it as an example to other airports on how they should run their business....if only this was true and gov would take on the DAA and now SAA monopoly in regard to running of airports. At the end of the day gov will ultimate decide on what happens Knock through aviation policy and mgt can only do what it can to try and present the facts to the region it serves