ISLE OF MAN
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Citywing sells tickets for flights opb Vanair. Vanair has the flights operated by Titan/Sprint on its behalf. It is not that now Citywing would contract Titan/Sprint and sell tickets for flights opb Vanair. It is not different from a tour operator selling me a seat only ticket for a flight operated by Thomson that for operational reasons has its flights operated by Titan. I don't see a problem here, really.
The problem is, as I understand it, the Citywing part as they act like a tour operator selling seats only (i.e. a ticket seller) without being regulated as such.
Which has led me to defend Vanair - that may or may not have had an operational issue last week, but are really not different from any other airline in Single European Sky and should, as a properly licenced EU airline, not be treated differently in public opinion just because they are Czech and not, say, Irish or French.
The problem is, as I understand it, the Citywing part as they act like a tour operator selling seats only (i.e. a ticket seller) without being regulated as such.
Which has led me to defend Vanair - that may or may not have had an operational issue last week, but are really not different from any other airline in Single European Sky and should, as a properly licenced EU airline, not be treated differently in public opinion just because they are Czech and not, say, Irish or French.
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Maybe it is Van Air that are making these alternative arrangements, but Citywing aren't presenting it that way. Indeed, by frequently updating their website to say who is operating the flights that day, they're making it more clear that Van Air aren't.
Which has led me to defend Vanair - that may or may not have had an operational issue last week, but are really not different from any other airline in Single European Sky and should, as a properly licenced EU airline, not be treated differently in public opinion just because they are Czech and not, say, Irish or French.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
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I understand that passengers receive a confirmation of their reservation which shows the change of airline. I find it hard to believe that this form of operation was intended by the regulations. I have to say though that the CAA seem quite relaxed about it.
Are the CAA relaxed about all of this or is it a case of being unwilling to be drawn into a potential political fight without being able to show good cause and necessary legal backup ?
Join Date: Mar 2003
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I totally agree. If any airline allows its aircraft to get airborne in appalling weather without workable alternates for the primary destination and with weather at the point of origin on a PROB40 to deteriorate below minima by the time of any likely return, I'd expect them to have the book thrown at them - Czech, Irish or French. It just so happens that in this case, it was a Czech airline which happened to think it was worth a go.
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Runway 30. Forgive my ignorance (I'm a layman intruding on this page!) I was under the impression that any airline operating into the UK - regardless of where they were based - had to be licensed by the UK CAA?
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I've copied the EU fact sheet for you.
"In 1992 the ‘third package’ (namely Council Regulations (EEC) Nos 2407/92, 2408/92 and 2409/92, now replaced by Regulation (EC) No 1008/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council) removed all remaining commercial restrictions for European airlines operating within the EU, thus setting up the ‘European Single Aviation Market’. The latter was subsequently extended to Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. It could be further extended to some neighbouring countries through the ‘European Common Aviation Area Agreement’, provided those countries progressively implement all relevant EU rules — which is not yet the case[1].
The ‘third package’ substituted ‘Community air carriers’ for the national air carriers, and set as the basic principle that any Community air carrier can freely set fares for passengers and cargo and can access any intra-EU route without any permit or authorisation (with the exception of some very particular routes on which Member States can impose public service obligations, subject to conditions and for a limited period of time).
The ‘third package’ also laid down the requirements that Community air carriers must comply with in order to start or continue operations, principally:
They shall be owned and effectively controlled by Member States and/or nationals of Member States, and their principal place of business shall be located in a Member State.
Their financial situation shall be good. They shall be appropriately insured to cover liability in case of accidents.
They shall have the professional ability and organisation to ensure the safety of operations in accordance with the regulations in force. This ability is evidenced by the issue of an ‘air operator certificate’."
Essentially it means that any airline licensed by an EU state can operate to/from or within the borders of any other EU state.
"In 1992 the ‘third package’ (namely Council Regulations (EEC) Nos 2407/92, 2408/92 and 2409/92, now replaced by Regulation (EC) No 1008/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council) removed all remaining commercial restrictions for European airlines operating within the EU, thus setting up the ‘European Single Aviation Market’. The latter was subsequently extended to Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. It could be further extended to some neighbouring countries through the ‘European Common Aviation Area Agreement’, provided those countries progressively implement all relevant EU rules — which is not yet the case[1].
The ‘third package’ substituted ‘Community air carriers’ for the national air carriers, and set as the basic principle that any Community air carrier can freely set fares for passengers and cargo and can access any intra-EU route without any permit or authorisation (with the exception of some very particular routes on which Member States can impose public service obligations, subject to conditions and for a limited period of time).
The ‘third package’ also laid down the requirements that Community air carriers must comply with in order to start or continue operations, principally:
They shall be owned and effectively controlled by Member States and/or nationals of Member States, and their principal place of business shall be located in a Member State.
Their financial situation shall be good. They shall be appropriately insured to cover liability in case of accidents.
They shall have the professional ability and organisation to ensure the safety of operations in accordance with the regulations in force. This ability is evidenced by the issue of an ‘air operator certificate’."
Essentially it means that any airline licensed by an EU state can operate to/from or within the borders of any other EU state.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Not sure we can really blame the authorities to turn a blind eye on the situation. As long back as last year they specifically laid on BREXIT to get rid of Vanair,
which somehow has gotten overlooked by the mainstream media that focuses on other minor side effects of triggering Art. 50.
So sad. 
More seriously - as I take the stance of the UK and the EU at this point, Brexit would mean an end to Vanair doing domestic flying around the British Isles unless the UK and the Czech Republic enter into some sort of far reaching aviation treaty?
which somehow has gotten overlooked by the mainstream media that focuses on other minor side effects of triggering Art. 50. So sad. More seriously - as I take the stance of the UK and the EU at this point, Brexit would mean an end to Vanair doing domestic flying around the British Isles unless the UK and the Czech Republic enter into some sort of far reaching aviation treaty?
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NI
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Van Air Let 410 OK-RDA departing homewards at 13:20
https://fr24.com/VAA930P/c9ad5b1
Au revoir, perhaps.
https://fr24.com/VAA930P/c9ad5b1
Au revoir, perhaps.
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: uk
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looks like OK-TCA had departed Cardiff now as well
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ok-tca
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ok-tca
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Well, all over for contract flying on behalf of Citywing and/or UK flying. Not necessarily for Vanair or a Vanair Mk. II. Depends on what markets they can find for using their fairly new LET410s.
Join Date: Jul 2009
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I do hope they find more work, but looking at their fleet utilisation in the past few years it has been 100% for Citywing. They do advertise wet-lease and charter on their website but don't seem to have had any other work.
Cash-flow is the killer for small businesses and unless they can line-up work ASAP they're in trouble, unfortunately.
Cash-flow is the killer for small businesses and unless they can line-up work ASAP they're in trouble, unfortunately.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Isle of Man
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EU?
I've copied the EU fact sheet for you.
"In 1992 the ‘third package’ (namely Council Regulations (EEC) Nos 2407/92, 2408/92 and 2409/92, now replaced by Regulation (EC) No 1008/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council) removed all remaining commercial restrictions for European airlines operating within the EU, thus setting up the ‘European Single Aviation Market’. The latter was subsequently extended to Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. It could be further extended to some neighbouring countries through the ‘European Common Aviation Area Agreement’, provided those countries progressively implement all relevant EU rules — which is not yet the case[1].
The ‘third package’ substituted ‘Community air carriers’ for the national air carriers, and set as the basic principle that any Community air carrier can freely set fares for passengers and cargo and can access any intra-EU route without any permit or authorisation (with the exception of some very particular routes on which Member States can impose public service obligations, subject to conditions and for a limited period of time).
The ‘third package’ also laid down the requirements that Community air carriers must comply with in order to start or continue operations, principally:
They shall be owned and effectively controlled by Member States and/or nationals of Member States, and their principal place of business shall be located in a Member State.
Their financial situation shall be good. They shall be appropriately insured to cover liability in case of accidents.
They shall have the professional ability and organisation to ensure the safety of operations in accordance with the regulations in force. This ability is evidenced by the issue of an ‘air operator certificate’."
Essentially it means that any airline licensed by an EU state can operate to/from or within the borders of any other EU state.
"In 1992 the ‘third package’ (namely Council Regulations (EEC) Nos 2407/92, 2408/92 and 2409/92, now replaced by Regulation (EC) No 1008/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council) removed all remaining commercial restrictions for European airlines operating within the EU, thus setting up the ‘European Single Aviation Market’. The latter was subsequently extended to Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. It could be further extended to some neighbouring countries through the ‘European Common Aviation Area Agreement’, provided those countries progressively implement all relevant EU rules — which is not yet the case[1].
The ‘third package’ substituted ‘Community air carriers’ for the national air carriers, and set as the basic principle that any Community air carrier can freely set fares for passengers and cargo and can access any intra-EU route without any permit or authorisation (with the exception of some very particular routes on which Member States can impose public service obligations, subject to conditions and for a limited period of time).
The ‘third package’ also laid down the requirements that Community air carriers must comply with in order to start or continue operations, principally:
They shall be owned and effectively controlled by Member States and/or nationals of Member States, and their principal place of business shall be located in a Member State.
Their financial situation shall be good. They shall be appropriately insured to cover liability in case of accidents.
They shall have the professional ability and organisation to ensure the safety of operations in accordance with the regulations in force. This ability is evidenced by the issue of an ‘air operator certificate’."
Essentially it means that any airline licensed by an EU state can operate to/from or within the borders of any other EU state.
Join Date: Sep 2016
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I do hope they find more work
Have Van Air made any sort of damage limitation press release such as the Captain concerned may no longer be employed by them, that they've realised his mistake and have taken steps to prevent it happening again etc. etc. etc?
Because if they plan to sweep it under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen then this is likely to impact upon people wanting to use them in the future.