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Join Date: Feb 2007
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ASW seemed pretty full in and out of LGW today, so presumably not having that much of an impact.
I don't know what BE's loads were today. But actually what their loads are is largely irrelevant. As far as I can see they've been selling most of their seats on this route at about 30 quid each way including taxes/charges. Going by their website, their taxes/charges alone are not far short of 30 quid each way. And that's before they've covered cost of landing fees, fuel, handling, ATC charges, maintenance costs, aircraft lease, crew salaries, marketing, etc etc etc. So even if they fill the aircraft at that price, they'll be losing a pile of money on the route. Which makes this route an odd way to deploy an expensive asset.
All very odd if you ask me.
I don't know what BE's loads were today. But actually what their loads are is largely irrelevant. As far as I can see they've been selling most of their seats on this route at about 30 quid each way including taxes/charges. Going by their website, their taxes/charges alone are not far short of 30 quid each way. And that's before they've covered cost of landing fees, fuel, handling, ATC charges, maintenance costs, aircraft lease, crew salaries, marketing, etc etc etc. So even if they fill the aircraft at that price, they'll be losing a pile of money on the route. Which makes this route an odd way to deploy an expensive asset.
All very odd if you ask me.
Whatever happens in the short term it is unlikely both ASW and Flybe will operate this route alongside each other in the long term.
The main difference is that NQY/PLH/LGW was the raison d'etre for ASW and is most probably still the major contributor to the bottom line , whereas for Flybe it is not.
In the event loads support only one carrier if Flybe dropped the route it would be a loss of investment but if ASW had to drop it the impact on them would be much harder.
Flybe management have to be aware of this so running as a loss leader for a period of time is arguably not a problem for them.
On the positive side I have a feeling that with the weakness of the pound against the Euro we may see an increase in visitor numbers to Cornwall this year! Let's hope so as last year wasn't the best for local businesses thanks largely to the rotten weather.
Only time will tell.........
The main difference is that NQY/PLH/LGW was the raison d'etre for ASW and is most probably still the major contributor to the bottom line , whereas for Flybe it is not.
In the event loads support only one carrier if Flybe dropped the route it would be a loss of investment but if ASW had to drop it the impact on them would be much harder.
Flybe management have to be aware of this so running as a loss leader for a period of time is arguably not a problem for them.
On the positive side I have a feeling that with the weakness of the pound against the Euro we may see an increase in visitor numbers to Cornwall this year! Let's hope so as last year wasn't the best for local businesses thanks largely to the rotten weather.
Only time will tell.........
Join Date: Sep 2007
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I don't know what BE's loads were today
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Sorry to be a bore, but it doesn't matter how many passengers they carry - if (as it seems) they are selling most of the seats for "taxes only" (about 30 quid) then it loses a packet of money.
The airline game is all about balancing pax numbers and average fare (yield).
Loads of pax at not much yield = Loss making route
Not many pax at high yield = Loss making route
Reasonable number of pax at reasonable yield = Possibility of making money
The airline game is all about balancing pax numbers and average fare (yield).
Loads of pax at not much yield = Loss making route
Not many pax at high yield = Loss making route
Reasonable number of pax at reasonable yield = Possibility of making money
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Don't disagree with anything said, however how many people originating in NQY?LGW are willing to pay a premium not to have to stop at PLH?
Flybe seem to have done pretty well out of making money over the last couple years and I see no reason why the LGWNQY route will not provide the same over time.
Flybe seem to have done pretty well out of making money over the last couple years and I see no reason why the LGWNQY route will not provide the same over time.
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'I am sure that the baggage charges and other ancilliary revenue make up for some of the shortfall....'
It is that shortfall that flybe will take as long as it takes to kill off ASW. Flybe has done it in the past and will continue to do so. I'm very surprised that 'monopoly' with regard to the UK domestic system hasn't yet been shouted by the few remaining UK regional operators.
It is that shortfall that flybe will take as long as it takes to kill off ASW. Flybe has done it in the past and will continue to do so. I'm very surprised that 'monopoly' with regard to the UK domestic system hasn't yet been shouted by the few remaining UK regional operators.
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Think monopoly is a bit strong. Business is business in every industry this happens depends on the strength of your product! As a consumer why buy an inferior product when something else is available. For example im sure you wouldn't buy a car from a company with a bad reliability record just to support the company you buy a car that will be good value for you! Especially in these times travellers are looking for the good delas and ways to save money.
If the ASW product is that good then they will have no problems at all and you may see Flybe come off the route but can't see many people wanting to stop in plymouth and pay more for the that.
Can't blame Flybe for offering the service. With open skies this is going to happen more and more across the airline industry which will force operators to up their game which can only be good for the customer!!
M
If the ASW product is that good then they will have no problems at all and you may see Flybe come off the route but can't see many people wanting to stop in plymouth and pay more for the that.
Can't blame Flybe for offering the service. With open skies this is going to happen more and more across the airline industry which will force operators to up their game which can only be good for the customer!!
M
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agreed with whats being said, but in all honesty i cant see either operator going anywhere anytime soon, thats my opinion!
hopefully with UK holidays being a bit more popular during summer 09 we will see both WOW and BE operate with decent loads, especially with BE's onward network from LGW (s)
it would be good to see WOW operate as a codeshare for BA to allow onward connection via LGW (n) and it would also be good to see BE do something with the Q400 which seems to be sat on the ground at NQY for quite a while after the 1st rotation to LGW (new route?)
cs
hopefully with UK holidays being a bit more popular during summer 09 we will see both WOW and BE operate with decent loads, especially with BE's onward network from LGW (s)
it would be good to see WOW operate as a codeshare for BA to allow onward connection via LGW (n) and it would also be good to see BE do something with the Q400 which seems to be sat on the ground at NQY for quite a while after the 1st rotation to LGW (new route?)
cs
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That may be the case with washing machines or cars but in the airline world it just doesn't work like that. The stronger airline (ie the one that can stand the finacial pain long enough) will prevail and is then it is nigh on impossible for a competitor to set up on the route unless, of course, that airline is bigger and can take more pain than the previous victor. Flybe is unassailable in the UK market and it is the passenger that suffers where there is no choice. One can glibly talk about 'improving service' but the laws of winning and losing on routes is more basic than that and comes down to price. That is the bottom line for the majority of passengers. And when there is no competition there is only one price; that is why monopoly is not good.
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Fair enough understand where your coming from re the monopolies and if for example ASW pulled off the route flybe could charge what they want. Fingers crossed enough business for both!!
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Monopoly OK for one, but not the other??
Interesting comment MaxReheat - so a monopoly operated by a public listed company such as ASW is OK, but by a private company such as Flybe is not?
Discuss.
Discuss.
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I am not advocating a monopoly for ASW either. What I am questioning are the motives of flybe competing with an existing, established carrier on the route. The answer is quite clear (I think) as it has done the same on many routes around the UK and became the 'new' monopoly carrier.
Of course, the 'free market' advocates will say that this is the law of the commercial jungle - but try telling that to the ASW employees when the P45s are handed out simply because someone at Exeter decided that they were the next targets on the list.
Of course, the 'free market' advocates will say that this is the law of the commercial jungle - but try telling that to the ASW employees when the P45s are handed out simply because someone at Exeter decided that they were the next targets on the list.
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MaxReheat
I am sorry to be pedantic, but advocating a monopoly for ASW is exactly what you are doing!
If you disagree, please explain what competition for ASW is acceptable to you. An unsuccessful business that wouldn't last for long in the 'commercial jungle'? Explain that away to the employees of said unsuccessful airline when the P45s are handed out.
Come on, please be balanced.
I am sorry to be pedantic, but advocating a monopoly for ASW is exactly what you are doing!
If you disagree, please explain what competition for ASW is acceptable to you. An unsuccessful business that wouldn't last for long in the 'commercial jungle'? Explain that away to the employees of said unsuccessful airline when the P45s are handed out.
Come on, please be balanced.
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At the end of the day, the motives for Flybe will be the same as any business at the moment and that will be survival. There will also be a desire to expand the business to the benefit of the employees and shareholders. This is surely the motive for any business wanting to suceed.
It is irrelevent where the competition comes from. Each side will want to succeed and it is possible that one will prevail over the other. It happens all the time in all businesses.
EZY came along and push BE off BHDSTN/BHDBRS etc
BE then diversified into alternative markets and looked at routes operated by Eastern/Euromanx etc via the acquisition of BAConnect.
It's survival of the fittest now, if ever it was. The likes of EZY/FR have many aircraft still be be delivered and when they don't want to risk new routes, they'll probably look at exisiting routes that they feel they can compete on, this will have a knock on effect for the whole industry.
It is irrelevent where the competition comes from. Each side will want to succeed and it is possible that one will prevail over the other. It happens all the time in all businesses.
EZY came along and push BE off BHDSTN/BHDBRS etc
BE then diversified into alternative markets and looked at routes operated by Eastern/Euromanx etc via the acquisition of BAConnect.
It's survival of the fittest now, if ever it was. The likes of EZY/FR have many aircraft still be be delivered and when they don't want to risk new routes, they'll probably look at exisiting routes that they feel they can compete on, this will have a knock on effect for the whole industry.
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Couldn't agree more with JobsaGoodun in the current economic climate it will be survival of the fittest and I don't think flybe are "out to get anyone" they are just looking after there best interests. Of which ASW will need to. It think I read somewhere that ASW had started Plymouth GCI now that could be deemed retaliation _(NQY-LGW) to Flybe's EXT-GCI but nobody is whinging about competition in that respect all be it a slightly different route.
M
M
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Just checked the time table, it's a bit of both
NQY - LGW all direct
LGW - NQY first three via Plymouth, last flight of day direct
Also bear in mind that BA also used to operate this route, so two airlines operating between NQY & LGW is not new
NQY - LGW all direct
LGW - NQY first three via Plymouth, last flight of day direct
Also bear in mind that BA also used to operate this route, so two airlines operating between NQY & LGW is not new
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BA operated LGW-NQY-LGW with a mix of 733, 734, 735 and 319's
the thought at the time was that it was a slot keeper at LGW but did prove to be popular during the summer over weekends by all accounts
the thought at the time was that it was a slot keeper at LGW but did prove to be popular during the summer over weekends by all accounts