Flybe Purchase EMB195 (merged)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Costa Del Solent
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have been told Embraer have developed a high-lift device option for the EMB-195 to get around the performance issues at the smaller strips. I must say that having looked around the -190 and -170 at EGLF last July they are lovely a/c and a lot of thinking has gone on in terms of the design both inside and out.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
notac is quite right. In addition, I don't believe for a minute that flybe has enough moolah in the bank to be able to make the necessary financial guarantees (unless Embraer are as desperate as Bombardier were).
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems that's why they didn't go for Airbus or Boeing - because they both wanted a deposit straight up!!!! Silly people should realise Flybe don't give out money - not even to employees!!
MOR and notac,
you are quite right in assuming flybe itself - the airline - doesn't have the "moolah" to purchase new a/c, but then how do you think they got around this issue with the $800+ bombardier order?
I don't think even a "desparate" company like Bombardier would make that much of a financial risk.
Also you are looking at the airline alone. The engineering company makes good profits, Walker Aviation and especially the AIRCRAFT LEASING arm also turns in healthy profits.
The family may want to ditch the airline but do you know for sure that these arms of the business will go also?
The company is private and family run and makes alot of money for Rosedale Investments. Sounds sensible to me to only show modest profits in the UK whilst the bulk of the money channels itself to JER.
I bet the aircraft leasing company has the "moolah" to acquire any new a/c - if it should want to.
BPM
you are quite right in assuming flybe itself - the airline - doesn't have the "moolah" to purchase new a/c, but then how do you think they got around this issue with the $800+ bombardier order?
I don't think even a "desparate" company like Bombardier would make that much of a financial risk.
Also you are looking at the airline alone. The engineering company makes good profits, Walker Aviation and especially the AIRCRAFT LEASING arm also turns in healthy profits.
The family may want to ditch the airline but do you know for sure that these arms of the business will go also?
The company is private and family run and makes alot of money for Rosedale Investments. Sounds sensible to me to only show modest profits in the UK whilst the bulk of the money channels itself to JER.
I bet the aircraft leasing company has the "moolah" to acquire any new a/c - if it should want to.
BPM
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nah... they had major issues finding the money for the RJX order, and the leasing arm didn't help them then. Why? Because the leasing arm is not swimming in money. It is an urban myth that the leasing arm makes a lot of money. In reality, the leasing arm is simply a financial device to manage that side of the business. It often varies the lease payments, and has done so to keep the company afloat.
The engineering arm doesn't make a loss, but neither does it make mega-millions, and where do you think the money for the hangar came from?
Nonsense. The shareholders have had to spend many millions propping the company up over the last few years - that has yet to be repaid in full - the expected pay-day being the sale of the company.
Very simple. The Q400 was a dead duck without the flybe order - we were essentially a "re-launch" customer. They took a major risk on us, because we were taking a major risk on an aircraft that, at the time, was a real problem child. It was either go with flybe - the only customer in sight - or close the line and cut up the jigs. Makes it all the more amusing when you consider all the hype surrounding the entry of the Q400 into service for flybe. My well-placed spies tell me that JF was less than impressed with the aircraft when the first one arrived. He thought it was going to be quiet, smooth, and give consistent smooth landings. How wrong can you be...
So the simple answer is, Bombardier had no choice, and neither did flybe.
Now you seem to imply that you are in the know. Here's a question for you - do you know what flybe had to sell in order to find the guarantees for the RJX order? And do they still have anything of value left to sell?
The answer to the last is NO, and the other companies aren't that cash-rich either. If they were, they could place the order for the new jets tommorrow morning. Ain't going to happen, of course. By all means quote some figures if you think differently.
More to the point, the shareholders would be unlikely to sell the company (or group of companies) if they thought that the whole thing was going to be profitable with no further input. The reality is that the company needs lots of money to move on. If they truly were committed to going with a new jet - and remember, they have been saying this for over three years now - they could easily have committed after a short evaluation period. There is little to choose between the Airbus or Boeing families in terms of operational ability, the wildcard is of course Embraer - but it doesn't take three years. The issue is money (or lack of it).
Also, why do you think we have never gone public, as has been suggested so many times? Simply because the company/shareholders know that it would be a disaster, as the City simply doesn't have the confidence in the company that it would need for the float to be successful.
The reality is that Boeing and Airbus will be keen to sell to us but will want guarantees that we can't give. Embraer might be more more flexible, but probably not, and their product is far from proven. They are, however, the most likely at this point for the reasons above.
It would be nice to see an order soon, but don't hold your breath.
JF has done a bang-up job, no doubt about that, but you can only do so much with very limited resources.
The engineering arm doesn't make a loss, but neither does it make mega-millions, and where do you think the money for the hangar came from?
The company is private and family run and makes alot of money for Rosedale Investments.
how do you think they got around this issue with the $800+ bombardier order?
So the simple answer is, Bombardier had no choice, and neither did flybe.
Now you seem to imply that you are in the know. Here's a question for you - do you know what flybe had to sell in order to find the guarantees for the RJX order? And do they still have anything of value left to sell?
The answer to the last is NO, and the other companies aren't that cash-rich either. If they were, they could place the order for the new jets tommorrow morning. Ain't going to happen, of course. By all means quote some figures if you think differently.
More to the point, the shareholders would be unlikely to sell the company (or group of companies) if they thought that the whole thing was going to be profitable with no further input. The reality is that the company needs lots of money to move on. If they truly were committed to going with a new jet - and remember, they have been saying this for over three years now - they could easily have committed after a short evaluation period. There is little to choose between the Airbus or Boeing families in terms of operational ability, the wildcard is of course Embraer - but it doesn't take three years. The issue is money (or lack of it).
Also, why do you think we have never gone public, as has been suggested so many times? Simply because the company/shareholders know that it would be a disaster, as the City simply doesn't have the confidence in the company that it would need for the float to be successful.
The reality is that Boeing and Airbus will be keen to sell to us but will want guarantees that we can't give. Embraer might be more more flexible, but probably not, and their product is far from proven. They are, however, the most likely at this point for the reasons above.
It would be nice to see an order soon, but don't hold your breath.
JF has done a bang-up job, no doubt about that, but you can only do so much with very limited resources.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hardly. If the aircraft is leased, it is a simple matter for the lessor take the aircraft back. Different to building aircraft specifically for a client, where if the client reneges, the manufacturer can be in very deep do-dos.
Also, with a lease you are not dealing with a manufacturer, you are dealing with a leasing company, and it does make a difference.
Also, with a lease you are not dealing with a manufacturer, you are dealing with a leasing company, and it does make a difference.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: France
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flybe.com, I can assure you that this has been said in the past! Therefore, I and about 50 other pilots left since November last year. Willywick is whistling the right flybe management tone, he might be one of these top class managers. As in the past, this might be just another attempt to provide people from leaving. I heard numbers above 60 (pilots only)who left since November last year.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Leeds
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spoke with the Engineers at BHX today and they have course dates for the 195. Deliveries are being planned for July 2006. An official announcement will be made at the next O/C meeting on 7 and 8 June.
Nil Further....
Big Jet??
I think this rumour is fast becoming fact now. MOR and his sceptics will have you believe otherwise but we'll have to read him eating his words next month on this forum.....
The a/c is brand new and so we're probably getting a fantastic deal on it...
It's ANOTHER dead type rating so fewer pilots can wander off too other companies as would have happened with Boeing/Airbus...
There's no salary comparator in the UK so the pilot wage is safe (at it's present hideously low scale)...
It also represents the only (and maybe not the best) 100-120 seat jet in the market at this time...
Here's looking to the fututre.....
And before you all bite me about why i should care? - I'm in Jersey so we probably won't get one anyway, so i'll have to prostitute myself to another loco for the cost of a type rating to further my career.
Wicked.
BPM
Big Jet??
I think this rumour is fast becoming fact now. MOR and his sceptics will have you believe otherwise but we'll have to read him eating his words next month on this forum.....
The a/c is brand new and so we're probably getting a fantastic deal on it...
It's ANOTHER dead type rating so fewer pilots can wander off too other companies as would have happened with Boeing/Airbus...
There's no salary comparator in the UK so the pilot wage is safe (at it's present hideously low scale)...
It also represents the only (and maybe not the best) 100-120 seat jet in the market at this time...
Here's looking to the fututre.....
And before you all bite me about why i should care? - I'm in Jersey so we probably won't get one anyway, so i'll have to prostitute myself to another loco for the cost of a type rating to further my career.
Wicked.
BPM
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rumours are coming from Brazil that it is indeed the 195. More money men are in Exeter today. I guess the official announcement will be tomorrow. (Standard reporting policy for Flybe)
By standard reporting policy I mean Weekend reporting.
By standard reporting policy I mean Weekend reporting.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Silly boy. I'm not a sceptic - I said that if any new jet happened, it would probably be an Embraer because the deal would not involve the same level of financial commitment. If an announcement is made regarding the Embraer, it really just reinforces my point that we can't find the dosh to make the promises that Boeing or Airbus require. And please don't try and tell me flybe prefer the Embraer - they'll take it because it is all they can afford, and then talk it up just like they did with the Q400...
Apart from that "other" 120-seat jet... the AVRO RJ/146...
It also represents the only (and maybe not the best) 100-120 seat jet in the market at this time...
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Totally typical..... should we really have xepected anything else form the management?!?!?!
Unfortunately there will be lots of people who will be quite happy to be re-bonded onto this pretty useless type.....
Unfortunately there will be lots of people who will be quite happy to be re-bonded onto this pretty useless type.....
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From past experiences the official word never came from Exeter, it was either from the caterers or cleaners.
It was the caterers who told me that my base was closing, not Exeter.
That was the last straw, I bailed quicktime.
BPM surely Jersey will be in the running for the new jet (performance withstanding). JER-LGW is one of their flagship routes.
Surely even the jelly baby brained folk of Exeter won't compete with BA737's with a "Super Dash".
And unfortunately you can't blame the management for thinking that with an Airbus/Boeing fleet, people will start to leg it as soon as their bond has expired cos the majority will.
I hope things work out for the best for you guys. I always had a good laugh when I was there.
It was the caterers who told me that my base was closing, not Exeter.
That was the last straw, I bailed quicktime.
BPM surely Jersey will be in the running for the new jet (performance withstanding). JER-LGW is one of their flagship routes.
Surely even the jelly baby brained folk of Exeter won't compete with BA737's with a "Super Dash".
And unfortunately you can't blame the management for thinking that with an Airbus/Boeing fleet, people will start to leg it as soon as their bond has expired cos the majority will.
I hope things work out for the best for you guys. I always had a good laugh when I was there.