Flybe's Fleet Replacement Collapsed Again
Thread Starter
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From: Leeds
Flybe's Fleet Replacement Collapsed Again
Flybe are reporting that the RJ100 has been cancelled.
The corrosion is more extensive than first thought and the company has decided not to use them as a replacement to their ageing 146 fleet.
Boeing and Airbus have failed to come up with a deal for fifteen 318/319 aircraft and the company are actively looking at the Embraer 195. A decision will be made within 3 months.
The corrosion is more extensive than first thought and the company has decided not to use them as a replacement to their ageing 146 fleet.
Boeing and Airbus have failed to come up with a deal for fifteen 318/319 aircraft and the company are actively looking at the Embraer 195. A decision will be made within 3 months.
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: United States
Flying Fiona
You say that Boeing and Airbus failed to come up with a deal ! how bizarre given that they are cutting each others throats selling to any Loco .
I suspect the truth is that you guys are all being strung along by your management to try and retain pilots , or , flybe couldnt finance the jets .
Its a different game ordering the last batch of Q400 , Bombardier really needed that deal , big time . I am sure they made it happen . Finance for 15 B737 at a list price of around $40 mill' is a whole different level . Given the Walker family Trust's often stated intent to exit the business at the earliest suitable opportunity and the fact thay are the only thing that gives the business any financial credibility ......... would you lend the money ?
The Embraer guys really need a nice order like that in Europe and there are some cushy deals available from the Brazilian governments finance bank , looks like you guys have a South American future . Nice little aeroplane though.
NF
You say that Boeing and Airbus failed to come up with a deal ! how bizarre given that they are cutting each others throats selling to any Loco .
I suspect the truth is that you guys are all being strung along by your management to try and retain pilots , or , flybe couldnt finance the jets .
Its a different game ordering the last batch of Q400 , Bombardier really needed that deal , big time . I am sure they made it happen . Finance for 15 B737 at a list price of around $40 mill' is a whole different level . Given the Walker family Trust's often stated intent to exit the business at the earliest suitable opportunity and the fact thay are the only thing that gives the business any financial credibility ......... would you lend the money ?
The Embraer guys really need a nice order like that in Europe and there are some cushy deals available from the Brazilian governments finance bank , looks like you guys have a South American future . Nice little aeroplane though.
NF
Joined: Jun 1999
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From: UK
It begs the question why did they buy / lease these aircraft in the first place? Turkish Airlines publicly grounded these exact aircraft in May 2004 for alleged fuel tank contamination. Fly be have now wasted tens of thousands of pounds training crews & engineers not to mention the problems they must be facing on overbookings if they can't find a 112 seat aircraft to replace the 97 seater 200 series currently at Southampton. Although I would imagine there must be some spare RJ's sitting in the desert or Exeter?
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: United Kingdom
notac,
I think that flybe hadn't actually leased the RJ's, but had a signed deal with BAe to lease them once tarted up. Having visited the hangers at flybe I was told that the a/c still belong to BAe or their leasing agent and not flybe. Flybe however, have made a nice little earner out of the engineering work contracted to them from BAe. So although a wasted expense training the pilots, they made some out of the hangar work!
I think that flybe hadn't actually leased the RJ's, but had a signed deal with BAe to lease them once tarted up. Having visited the hangers at flybe I was told that the a/c still belong to BAe or their leasing agent and not flybe. Flybe however, have made a nice little earner out of the engineering work contracted to them from BAe. So although a wasted expense training the pilots, they made some out of the hangar work!
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Blairgowrie,Scotland
That's REALLY strange,considering G-JEBV has been photographed painted up in Flybe's colours. Why would they paint an aircraft before it was fit? Resprays are definately not cheap,and you'd hardly do that to a car you were thinking about buying,before you kicked the tyres!
Unless of course,BAe sprayed it! I read that they had painted G-BUHC IN ANTICIPATION of Air Dolomiti's lease,so who knows?
Unless of course,BAe sprayed it! I read that they had painted G-BUHC IN ANTICIPATION of Air Dolomiti's lease,so who knows?
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Coventry
Would be much more interesting if they gave the Embraers a go. That way, they could keep their niche in the 70-120 seat market, and stay away from the 737/A319/20 dogfight.
Would complement the Q400s nicely, as they'd reach parts of Europe the Q400s can't reach.
Would complement the Q400s nicely, as they'd reach parts of Europe the Q400s can't reach.
Rebel PPRuNer
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From: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Unless they are going to keep Astreaus in clover while Bombardier get the C-Series moving? Unlikely though - after the RJX fiasco I would expect Flybe to steer clear of launches!
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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From: Everywhere in the UK, but not home!
MarkD,
Waiting for the C-series would be my bet, being a launch customer may be a bind, but the price that Bombardier may sell the initial tranche of jets may just prove irresistable!!
Waiting for the C-series would be my bet, being a launch customer may be a bind, but the price that Bombardier may sell the initial tranche of jets may just prove irresistable!!
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From: Euroland
I think Nil Further is closest to the truth. To order a bunch of jets, you have to prove financial fitness to the manufacturer, and that normally involves having tens of millions in the bank. I believe the figure for the RJX order was 8 million, and that was a few years ago now.
Of course if you are leasing it is a slightly different picture, but you still need cash reserves. Flybe may be in better shape than years gone by, but they don't have significant cash reserves -yet.
I hope they stick with the 146's until a decent replacement is found, and not order any more of those god-awful Q400's. As mentioned earlier, Bombardier were desperate to sell some of the Q400's and I imagine there were very deep discounts.
As far as the RJ's are concerned, any heavy maintenance will be BAe's call, not flybe's. They had similar issues with the Thai 146-300's, as the Thais had not bothered to do the proper biobore treatments that prevent this sort of corrosion. I also find it hard to believe they would paint them before ripping them to bits - makes no sense at all.
Of course if you are leasing it is a slightly different picture, but you still need cash reserves. Flybe may be in better shape than years gone by, but they don't have significant cash reserves -yet.
I hope they stick with the 146's until a decent replacement is found, and not order any more of those god-awful Q400's. As mentioned earlier, Bombardier were desperate to sell some of the Q400's and I imagine there were very deep discounts.
As far as the RJ's are concerned, any heavy maintenance will be BAe's call, not flybe's. They had similar issues with the Thai 146-300's, as the Thais had not bothered to do the proper biobore treatments that prevent this sort of corrosion. I also find it hard to believe they would paint them before ripping them to bits - makes no sense at all.
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: UK
I too cannot understand painting the aircraft prior to its introduction but maybe BAe paid for this as part of the lease agreement??? I guess they weren't expecting to find the level of corrosion that they have, after all these are relatively young airframes.
Interestingly, it does not seem to be Flybe's intention to replace the 146's with either 737's or A319's. It now looks like 737/319 aircraft will also be required in addition to whatever order will replace the 146's. Maybe Flybe will have a 3 type fleet??? There appears to be a very clear need for a jet with capacity in the region of 120 seats as well as the Q400 and Boeings/Airbuses.
Personally I think the C-Series is too far off, however I'm sure very attractive terms could be aquired. Embraer only have 15 firm orders from Swiss for the EMB195. With Lufthansa's aquisition of Swiss and their recent additions of further 146's to Eurowings and Air Dolomiti's fleets it would appear that Swiss's Embraer order may now be in questionable. How likely is it that Lufthansa will get Swiss to retain its RJ100's? If this is the case then I'm sure equally impressive terms could be sourced from Embraer if they were left with no place for Swiss' 15 firm orders.
It promises to be interesting times ahead over the next few months until we hear what might happen!
Interestingly, it does not seem to be Flybe's intention to replace the 146's with either 737's or A319's. It now looks like 737/319 aircraft will also be required in addition to whatever order will replace the 146's. Maybe Flybe will have a 3 type fleet??? There appears to be a very clear need for a jet with capacity in the region of 120 seats as well as the Q400 and Boeings/Airbuses.
Personally I think the C-Series is too far off, however I'm sure very attractive terms could be aquired. Embraer only have 15 firm orders from Swiss for the EMB195. With Lufthansa's aquisition of Swiss and their recent additions of further 146's to Eurowings and Air Dolomiti's fleets it would appear that Swiss's Embraer order may now be in questionable. How likely is it that Lufthansa will get Swiss to retain its RJ100's? If this is the case then I'm sure equally impressive terms could be sourced from Embraer if they were left with no place for Swiss' 15 firm orders.
It promises to be interesting times ahead over the next few months until we hear what might happen!
Rebel PPRuNer
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
That's what I don't get - if LH are sourcing presumably airworthy aircraft from BAe, why didn't flybe get some?
A deal could have been brokered by BAe to satisfy both sides, relieving LX of the Embraers and making LH group BAe's biggest 146 family user. All speculation though!
Oh and MOR - what's your problem with the Q's? Early tech problems aside they seem to be big money makers as far as I understood?
A deal could have been brokered by BAe to satisfy both sides, relieving LX of the Embraers and making LH group BAe's biggest 146 family user. All speculation though!
Oh and MOR - what's your problem with the Q's? Early tech problems aside they seem to be big money makers as far as I understood?
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: UK
Mark D,
I think Flybe were very specific in their needs and wanted solely RJ100's. You are correct that their are plenty 146-300's kicking around, some still from BUZZ.
The main difference is payload out of SOU. I think this is why Flybe need the RJ's instead.
I think Flybe were very specific in their needs and wanted solely RJ100's. You are correct that their are plenty 146-300's kicking around, some still from BUZZ.
The main difference is payload out of SOU. I think this is why Flybe need the RJ's instead.
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From: Euroland
MarkD
It may make money, but that doesn't make it a good aircraft.
Having positioned on the Q400 more times than I care to remember, I found it vibey, noisy, cramped and generally unpleasant. Not to mention the number of times I was delayed or had travel cancelled due to technical problems. I have also lost count of the number of times I got called off standby to rescue the pax from a dead Q400, in the trusty 146.
Often, on those positioning flights, I was engaged in conversation by pax (as I was wearing a uniform). Most of them considered it to be an old aircraft, and tolerated rather than enjoyed it. Some wouldn't believe me when I pointed out how old the aircraft actually were. Many though the 146 parked next door was the newer aircraft.
Flybe bought into the Q400 program at a time when they simply couldn't engage any other manufacturer in meaningful talks, as a result of their dire financial state at the time. Bombardier were desperate for a customer after a disasterous launch with SAS, where the aircraft was shown to be clearly not ready for the market. How many aircraft have required "remanufacturing" after a year's service?
In many ways, the two companies represented to each other the only hopes they had of continuing (flybe as an airline, and the Q400 as a program). If flybe hadn't ordered it, it would have been cancelled.
Flybe have since "talked it up" as being a wonderful aircraft - they had to. Not only to attract customers, but to justify their decision to buy it. You can tell by the way the Q400 boys and girls have all been lobotomised with the same "best thing since sliced bread" mantra.
I wouldn't travel in the thing unless it was the only option available. I suspect that if flybe were to honestly canvass the opinions of their customers, they would find that most would prefer a jet (even a 146). But of course the "customer satisfaction surveys" were only ever going to have one outcome.
It's got a nice flight deck, is no doubt nice to fly, but from a passenger perspective... no thanks.
Now watch all the Q400 drivers wade in with a staunch defense of their baby...
It may make money, but that doesn't make it a good aircraft.
Having positioned on the Q400 more times than I care to remember, I found it vibey, noisy, cramped and generally unpleasant. Not to mention the number of times I was delayed or had travel cancelled due to technical problems. I have also lost count of the number of times I got called off standby to rescue the pax from a dead Q400, in the trusty 146.
Often, on those positioning flights, I was engaged in conversation by pax (as I was wearing a uniform). Most of them considered it to be an old aircraft, and tolerated rather than enjoyed it. Some wouldn't believe me when I pointed out how old the aircraft actually were. Many though the 146 parked next door was the newer aircraft.
Flybe bought into the Q400 program at a time when they simply couldn't engage any other manufacturer in meaningful talks, as a result of their dire financial state at the time. Bombardier were desperate for a customer after a disasterous launch with SAS, where the aircraft was shown to be clearly not ready for the market. How many aircraft have required "remanufacturing" after a year's service?
In many ways, the two companies represented to each other the only hopes they had of continuing (flybe as an airline, and the Q400 as a program). If flybe hadn't ordered it, it would have been cancelled.
Flybe have since "talked it up" as being a wonderful aircraft - they had to. Not only to attract customers, but to justify their decision to buy it. You can tell by the way the Q400 boys and girls have all been lobotomised with the same "best thing since sliced bread" mantra.
I wouldn't travel in the thing unless it was the only option available. I suspect that if flybe were to honestly canvass the opinions of their customers, they would find that most would prefer a jet (even a 146). But of course the "customer satisfaction surveys" were only ever going to have one outcome.
It's got a nice flight deck, is no doubt nice to fly, but from a passenger perspective... no thanks.
Now watch all the Q400 drivers wade in with a staunch defense of their baby...
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: uk
MOR
Having heard you slate the 400 on many occasions, it's strange that after flying it for 2years I've heard little complaints about the noise inside, vibration(??), being cramped(???) or general unpleasantness. Yes, it's had it's moments of tech problems, however most of these are rectified quite quickly with a power-down.
I've positioned on the 146 many times, and find the noxious fumes rather more unpleasant that the noise of the props on short final when they're put to max.
Whatever the reasons for FlyBE initially going for the Q400, they've certainly found their niche and are keeping the company going. Which is probably why they've ordered 20 more.
With the just-announced cancellation of the RJ's, and a decsion not to go for the 737 or A319/20, it looks like you'll be stuck on the 146 for a few years more. That is until they come to the end of a 'serviceable' life, and while FlyBE are still waiting for the C-whatever to be built, you'll find that they'll end up chaging to a one-fleet company.
Enjoy the Dash!
Having heard you slate the 400 on many occasions, it's strange that after flying it for 2years I've heard little complaints about the noise inside, vibration(??), being cramped(???) or general unpleasantness. Yes, it's had it's moments of tech problems, however most of these are rectified quite quickly with a power-down.
I've positioned on the 146 many times, and find the noxious fumes rather more unpleasant that the noise of the props on short final when they're put to max.
Whatever the reasons for FlyBE initially going for the Q400, they've certainly found their niche and are keeping the company going. Which is probably why they've ordered 20 more.
With the just-announced cancellation of the RJ's, and a decsion not to go for the 737 or A319/20, it looks like you'll be stuck on the 146 for a few years more. That is until they come to the end of a 'serviceable' life, and while FlyBE are still waiting for the C-whatever to be built, you'll find that they'll end up chaging to a one-fleet company.
Enjoy the Dash!
CH3CH2OH
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 526
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From: The Pub
As a passenger give me the Q400 any time, have not had the pleasure of FlyBe but have flown in BA(CX?) RJ and Wideroe Q400.
The RJ has to be the most cramped, smelly thing I have flown in in years (and that includes a TAAG 732!). The Q400 for the sector length is quite fine.
The RJ has to be the most cramped, smelly thing I have flown in in years (and that includes a TAAG 732!). The Q400 for the sector length is quite fine.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: US
You are correct that their are plenty 146-300's kicking around, some still from BUZZ.