Jetsgo Ceases Operations
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An airline that makes pilots pay for their employment is unfairly taking advantage of the pilot profession. There is a long history of debate and innuendo about pilots who work at a "pay-for-job/training" company and most pilots have an opinion either for or against this practice. I am disgusted by any company that practices it, although my feelings are not necessarily directed against the pilot who avails themselves of this kind of employment. The demise of Jetsgo and it's effects on their pilots will be added to my list of arguments as to why I am against any airline that uses "pay for training".
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At the risk of sounding harsh: other than the pain this causes all the employees, I think it a GOOD thing that people lose their deposits for training in cases such as this. Ours is a PROFESSION, which has been badly damaged and undermined by people on the lower rungs of the ladder who are willing to do ANYTHING to fly that 'shiny jet'. All they do is convince companies that they can exploit and undermine pilots and their careers. Once you have obtained your licences, you are to be considered a PROFESSIONAL. That means that you should be hired on MERIT, not your ability to write a check. The more cases that occur such as Jetsgo, the better it will be for the profession. If they expect you to pay for a job...the job isn't worth having..... Hopefully pilots around the world will slowly learn this lesson.
Eight Gun Fighter
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Two MD83s still on the gates on the B concourse at YVR. Why didn't they at least fly them back to base? A badly handled shutdown. M. Leblanc and his cronies should not be allowed near an airline for 142 years.
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Canada's Lorenzo. He (Mike The White) should not be allowed to engage in any aviation-related activity - EVER. He (and his ilk) are a scourge on the face of the industry.
Goodwill thoroughly incinerated -- CBC Pax and Crew Stories
That was M. LeBlanc's previous venture as others have pointed out
Allow me to correct that to a Canadian carrier not connected to M. Leblanc
Me -- It's been a looooooooooong time since a Canadian carrier left its pax and crews in the lurch.
innuendo -- Not so sure about that, I had friends stranded in Hawaii when Canada 3000 ceased operations and it was not that long ago.
innuendo -- Not so sure about that, I had friends stranded in Hawaii when Canada 3000 ceased operations and it was not that long ago.
Allow me to correct that to a Canadian carrier not connected to M. Leblanc
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Interesting insight into Leblanc from to-day's (March 12) Globe and Mail:
An airline addict hits his fourth wall
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...iness/Canadian
An airline addict hits his fourth wall
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...iness/Canadian
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Orca strait: Pilot's pay for their own ab-initio training, whether it is a contract commitment with the Air Force, Cadet program through an Airline or the good old fashioned way of slogging it out on your own. This would be equivlent to a University degree in terms of both time spent and funding ($50,000+).
Once you are in the employ of an air carrier the type specific training rests with the company. The company is not training you to be a Pilot as you have already aquired these accreditiations (Private Pilot, Commercial Pilot, Night Rating, Multi-Engine Instrument Rating, Airline Transport Rating etc.)
In this case the Air Carrier woud hire you as a Pilot, assuming you meet all the minimum qualifications (hours flown, type of aircraft flown etc.), then assign you to an aircraft in which you would take type specific training. At the end of the training a Pilot Prificiency Check (PPC) is completed under the oversight of the Federal Regulatory body (JAA, FAA, Transport Canada etc.) The PPC then has to be re-done every 6 months or you lose the right to fly. Fail the PPC more than three times - life gets real complicated...
The PPC training is what eight iron special is talking about. In recent years low value (not lo-cost) Airlines have been taking advantage of the Pilot Profession by establishing minimum term employment contracts (typically 2 -3 years). Attached to these contracts are bonds - in Jetsgo's case $30,000 committed by the Pilot at time of hire. If the Pilot should leave within the 3 year contract period then the Airline can demand all or partial payment of the bond.
Once you are in the employ of an air carrier the type specific training rests with the company. The company is not training you to be a Pilot as you have already aquired these accreditiations (Private Pilot, Commercial Pilot, Night Rating, Multi-Engine Instrument Rating, Airline Transport Rating etc.)
In this case the Air Carrier woud hire you as a Pilot, assuming you meet all the minimum qualifications (hours flown, type of aircraft flown etc.), then assign you to an aircraft in which you would take type specific training. At the end of the training a Pilot Prificiency Check (PPC) is completed under the oversight of the Federal Regulatory body (JAA, FAA, Transport Canada etc.) The PPC then has to be re-done every 6 months or you lose the right to fly. Fail the PPC more than three times - life gets real complicated...
The PPC training is what eight iron special is talking about. In recent years low value (not lo-cost) Airlines have been taking advantage of the Pilot Profession by establishing minimum term employment contracts (typically 2 -3 years). Attached to these contracts are bonds - in Jetsgo's case $30,000 committed by the Pilot at time of hire. If the Pilot should leave within the 3 year contract period then the Airline can demand all or partial payment of the bond.
Sometimes, some lawyers will manage to get some of this "recurrent" training sponsored and/or paid for by someone else, for example if they have a large corporate employer. But this is far from universal. And that's just the way that traditional professions work.
If the $30,000 that eight iron special referred to is a form of golden handcuffs rather than payment for training, then I have misunderstood the point being made and I apologise. I can well understand the effect of golden handcuffs. It was the suggestion that the mere fact that one pays for one's own training diminishes the status of one's profession that I would vehemently disagree with.
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A very sleazy shutdown of Jetsgo indeed, in my opinion. The media has interviewed customers who made on-line reservations as late as midnight on the night of the shutdown.
The statement from Michel Leblanc was issued in written form ... never any public appearance/interview. He's gone into seclusion, obviously unwilling to show his face. Would seem he has extracted as much money as he possibly could on the eve of a most busy travel week in Canada and then split before he had to waste a dime on actually providing a service.
Television showed work crews disassembling ticket counters and computer stations in the middle of the night. The only thing left for arriving passengers in the morning was a letter displayed for all to read. There were no Jetsgo Management/Supervisors on hand to deal with the naturally angry passengers. As I recall, when Canada 3 stopped flying "former" employees worked the counters trying to help their customers, quite aware they would not be paid for that most difficult of shifts.
Two lessons to be learned from this disaster, but only in my dreams do I think they could ever in fact happen ...
1: Passengers should wake up and realize that you don't get a safe, dependable, reliable airline flight for peanuts. (You might get a bus trip, but even that will likely cost more).
2: Pilots worldwide should turn away from Companies that want training bonds/cash/loans signed prior to starting work. They just aren't worth it in the long run.
And hopefully .... the industry has seen the last Mr. Michel Leblanc!
Sawbones
The statement from Michel Leblanc was issued in written form ... never any public appearance/interview. He's gone into seclusion, obviously unwilling to show his face. Would seem he has extracted as much money as he possibly could on the eve of a most busy travel week in Canada and then split before he had to waste a dime on actually providing a service.
Television showed work crews disassembling ticket counters and computer stations in the middle of the night. The only thing left for arriving passengers in the morning was a letter displayed for all to read. There were no Jetsgo Management/Supervisors on hand to deal with the naturally angry passengers. As I recall, when Canada 3 stopped flying "former" employees worked the counters trying to help their customers, quite aware they would not be paid for that most difficult of shifts.
Two lessons to be learned from this disaster, but only in my dreams do I think they could ever in fact happen ...
1: Passengers should wake up and realize that you don't get a safe, dependable, reliable airline flight for peanuts. (You might get a bus trip, but even that will likely cost more).
2: Pilots worldwide should turn away from Companies that want training bonds/cash/loans signed prior to starting work. They just aren't worth it in the long run.
And hopefully .... the industry has seen the last Mr. Michel Leblanc!
Sawbones
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D ont worrie folks as I know Leblanc he did not loose any money I bet you he bought several shares of West Jet and Air Can before to pull the plug because he was the only one to know about it It is not the first time he his doing that but I really hope it is the last time
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Globaliser;
You described the 30K perfectly as "Golden Handcuffs" - well put. As for the lawyer's costs, I was thinking of large firms with 100 partners. In Canada, pilots pay "ab-initio" costs, including upgrading to multi, IFR, etc. I am not a lawyer, but you make sense saying a lawyer must pay his own way - perhaps a bad example.
One thing to remember (and this always stirs a debate) is that a pilot is not a true "professional" like a doctor or lawyer, but is simply highly skilled labour. The practice of paying for these training bonds, in the aviation industry, is not widespread, and prevalent only in these low cost start-up's (Wal-mart's of the skies, if you will). Thus, those who pay for these training bonds are considered desperate and diminish the overall compensation levels in the industry.
EIS
You described the 30K perfectly as "Golden Handcuffs" - well put. As for the lawyer's costs, I was thinking of large firms with 100 partners. In Canada, pilots pay "ab-initio" costs, including upgrading to multi, IFR, etc. I am not a lawyer, but you make sense saying a lawyer must pay his own way - perhaps a bad example.
One thing to remember (and this always stirs a debate) is that a pilot is not a true "professional" like a doctor or lawyer, but is simply highly skilled labour. The practice of paying for these training bonds, in the aviation industry, is not widespread, and prevalent only in these low cost start-up's (Wal-mart's of the skies, if you will). Thus, those who pay for these training bonds are considered desperate and diminish the overall compensation levels in the industry.
EIS
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Jetsgo botched YYC landing
eight iron special,
A bit off the thread topic, but since you mentioned it, I thought I'd ask.
"...a pilot is not a true 'professional' like a doctor or lawyer..." ?
That's an interesting premise. Would you care to elaborate ? This comes as a bit of a surprise. My dictionary is rather clear on this.
Nothing personal...just curious. I've never heard this said.
A bit off the thread topic, but since you mentioned it, I thought I'd ask.
"...a pilot is not a true 'professional' like a doctor or lawyer..." ?
That's an interesting premise. Would you care to elaborate ? This comes as a bit of a surprise. My dictionary is rather clear on this.
Nothing personal...just curious. I've never heard this said.
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Leblanc the no saoul business man
Leblanc is a monster.
Talking of stranded people, I hear a lot of you guy talking about C3. Dont forget Inter-Canadien, Inter, Royal also.
This guy has no social remorses. He thinks of his employees as "profitable rotable material".
I said to myself once that I would never work for him. Well I did underectly... and I was not impressed at all to see him go. I was working for the company who did the c-checks on his MD-83's. Even if things were going good (2002-2003) he didnt want to commit for long term contract agreement with us. Not even mid term. Always leaving the doubt of pulling the plug on the mini contracts he had with us. Always sqweezing more out of the lemon that had no more juice in it anyways. I know that it is not prudent to put all your eggs in the same basket and for security reasons you might want to spead out your work (although all was well where I worked) but he could have at least signed an agreement for a certain number of checks giving our company the freedom to buy more equipment. We did the job right but sometime at a cost. Some poeple got injured on those check cause our company didnt want to invest to much incase Leblanc would pull the plug on us. His cheap way of running his show had effect on everybodys work. But did he invest on trucks.....Boy! He had tons of shinny new trucks that he never used anyways.
He knew from the start that Jets-go would last 3 years.
He was never there (for any of his companies) for the long term.
He might have had the intent to stay in business for long but his skills as a business man are doubtfull. Well in fact it might be that he's pretty brilliant and all of us are very much stupid. Cause in all of his ordeals, I dont think he lost any money, and in fact he did quite a large sum.... (I can still see Angus wounder why Leblanc was laughing when he took the check for the selling Royal....)
I just hope that a rulling of some kind will prevent him to start anyting again.
But if that should be the case (that he is permitted to carry out a sevent bankrupcy) I am shure that a bunch of yahoo's will follow him anyways.
And even if he is refused in his demand to start the sevent bankrupcy, dont forget that he might do it anyways.
Remember Robert Obadia? Dear uncle Bob was banned from starting an airline back in the 90's but that didnt stop him from starting up Fortunair. In those cases you just have to name a "puppet president" and you've got it made in the shade.....
My thought's go out to all Jets-Go employes and all workers that will suffer from this monster we call Mr. Leblanc.
Thanks for nothing Mr. (and here I am polite by still calling him Mister.....) Leblanc.
See you in 2006.
What is it going to be this time?
Jet-Blast?
Con-Air? No sorry that's been taken already.
Or better yet Air-I-dont-give-a-####-about-no-one-and-the-hell-with-you-all-take-your-peanuts-and-shut-up Airways
Talking of stranded people, I hear a lot of you guy talking about C3. Dont forget Inter-Canadien, Inter, Royal also.
This guy has no social remorses. He thinks of his employees as "profitable rotable material".
I said to myself once that I would never work for him. Well I did underectly... and I was not impressed at all to see him go. I was working for the company who did the c-checks on his MD-83's. Even if things were going good (2002-2003) he didnt want to commit for long term contract agreement with us. Not even mid term. Always leaving the doubt of pulling the plug on the mini contracts he had with us. Always sqweezing more out of the lemon that had no more juice in it anyways. I know that it is not prudent to put all your eggs in the same basket and for security reasons you might want to spead out your work (although all was well where I worked) but he could have at least signed an agreement for a certain number of checks giving our company the freedom to buy more equipment. We did the job right but sometime at a cost. Some poeple got injured on those check cause our company didnt want to invest to much incase Leblanc would pull the plug on us. His cheap way of running his show had effect on everybodys work. But did he invest on trucks.....Boy! He had tons of shinny new trucks that he never used anyways.
He knew from the start that Jets-go would last 3 years.
He was never there (for any of his companies) for the long term.
He might have had the intent to stay in business for long but his skills as a business man are doubtfull. Well in fact it might be that he's pretty brilliant and all of us are very much stupid. Cause in all of his ordeals, I dont think he lost any money, and in fact he did quite a large sum.... (I can still see Angus wounder why Leblanc was laughing when he took the check for the selling Royal....)
I just hope that a rulling of some kind will prevent him to start anyting again.
But if that should be the case (that he is permitted to carry out a sevent bankrupcy) I am shure that a bunch of yahoo's will follow him anyways.
And even if he is refused in his demand to start the sevent bankrupcy, dont forget that he might do it anyways.
Remember Robert Obadia? Dear uncle Bob was banned from starting an airline back in the 90's but that didnt stop him from starting up Fortunair. In those cases you just have to name a "puppet president" and you've got it made in the shade.....
My thought's go out to all Jets-Go employes and all workers that will suffer from this monster we call Mr. Leblanc.
Thanks for nothing Mr. (and here I am polite by still calling him Mister.....) Leblanc.
See you in 2006.
What is it going to be this time?
Jet-Blast?
Con-Air? No sorry that's been taken already.
Or better yet Air-I-dont-give-a-####-about-no-one-and-the-hell-with-you-all-take-your-peanuts-and-shut-up Airways
Last edited by Squibs; 14th Mar 2005 at 01:58.
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What needs to be clarified here is that signing a bond is one thing. Writing a cheque while signing a bond is quite another.
If these pilots had all asked to put the bond money IN ESCROW, as I have been suggesting they do for the last year or so, then they wouldn't now be standing in line behind the banks for their money.
Leblanc clearly has friends in the right places, and in my opinion had bancruptcy as part of the plan all along.
Go back to posts on this forum over the last year. Nobody can say that they were not warned that this would happen. It has always been a question of "when", not "if".
If these pilots had all asked to put the bond money IN ESCROW, as I have been suggesting they do for the last year or so, then they wouldn't now be standing in line behind the banks for their money.
Leblanc clearly has friends in the right places, and in my opinion had bancruptcy as part of the plan all along.
Go back to posts on this forum over the last year. Nobody can say that they were not warned that this would happen. It has always been a question of "when", not "if".
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Globaliser:
We can’t really compare the Professions when it comes to the PPC (Pilot Proficiency Check) issue. I agree that as Professionals it is incumbent upon us as individuals to continually upgrade our skills and education throughout our careers.
The PPC differs in that a PPC can only be issued if you are working for an approved air carrier. In theory I could go to Boeing Flight Safety as a self sponsored candidate and complete a B737 Type Endorsement (Airbus, Boeing, Lear etc.). Upon completion of the course followed by successful grades on the written, oral and flight test exams, I would have B737 Type Endorsed on my license (approximately $40K USD).
I apply at XYZ Airline whom operate B737 aircraft and land the job. The Type Endorsement does nothing for my new Employer except indicate to them that I have passed the academics of flying a generic B737.
I would now undergo the entire B737 course again incorporating Standard Operating Procedures (SOP’s) and all operating criteria that are approved and enforced by the Federal Regulatory Body for XYZ Airline. All of the ancillary courses are incorporated during the initial training period (high altitude indoctrination, crew resource management, dangerous goods, emergency procedures training, anti/de-icing cold wx ops, RVSM, ETOPS etc.). All of the ancillary courses require annual re-currency training and the PPC requires bi-annual training with a flight test and on top of that, an annual route check.
All training programs have to be approved by the Federal Regulatory Body and are then continually monitored. The specifics of each program vary with each Airline therefore the PPC itself is non-transferable; the experience gained by the Pilot however, can be.
Back to Jetsgo…
There are several types of Pilots that apply at Jetsgo – experienced (Captains with multiple types flown and thousands of flight hours) mid-experienced (First Officers with previous second-in-command experience on jet aircraft and new hire (several thousand hours on lighter aircraft but no jet time).
Jetsgo required all of these Pilots’s to pay the $30,000 as a condition of employment and knew they would get away with it as the industry was in an extreme downturn post 911. Taking advantage of the many Airline bankruptcies to snap up personnel and equipment for pennies on the dollar only to use them and abuse them then throw them back on the street a few years later.
By the way, all of the training has a time life, 90, 180, 360 days and the final being two years. If you have not flown in this time your chances of job re-entry are very slim. Most contract agencies require time flown on type that you are applying for to have been within the previous six months.
Michel LeBlanc is the Frank Lorenzo of Canada. The next time he or the Entrepreneurs of his ilk approach the trough again – just say no.
A good company treats its employees with dignity and respect and the employees return in kind (and no, Unions are not the answer).
We can’t really compare the Professions when it comes to the PPC (Pilot Proficiency Check) issue. I agree that as Professionals it is incumbent upon us as individuals to continually upgrade our skills and education throughout our careers.
The PPC differs in that a PPC can only be issued if you are working for an approved air carrier. In theory I could go to Boeing Flight Safety as a self sponsored candidate and complete a B737 Type Endorsement (Airbus, Boeing, Lear etc.). Upon completion of the course followed by successful grades on the written, oral and flight test exams, I would have B737 Type Endorsed on my license (approximately $40K USD).
I apply at XYZ Airline whom operate B737 aircraft and land the job. The Type Endorsement does nothing for my new Employer except indicate to them that I have passed the academics of flying a generic B737.
I would now undergo the entire B737 course again incorporating Standard Operating Procedures (SOP’s) and all operating criteria that are approved and enforced by the Federal Regulatory Body for XYZ Airline. All of the ancillary courses are incorporated during the initial training period (high altitude indoctrination, crew resource management, dangerous goods, emergency procedures training, anti/de-icing cold wx ops, RVSM, ETOPS etc.). All of the ancillary courses require annual re-currency training and the PPC requires bi-annual training with a flight test and on top of that, an annual route check.
All training programs have to be approved by the Federal Regulatory Body and are then continually monitored. The specifics of each program vary with each Airline therefore the PPC itself is non-transferable; the experience gained by the Pilot however, can be.
Back to Jetsgo…
There are several types of Pilots that apply at Jetsgo – experienced (Captains with multiple types flown and thousands of flight hours) mid-experienced (First Officers with previous second-in-command experience on jet aircraft and new hire (several thousand hours on lighter aircraft but no jet time).
Jetsgo required all of these Pilots’s to pay the $30,000 as a condition of employment and knew they would get away with it as the industry was in an extreme downturn post 911. Taking advantage of the many Airline bankruptcies to snap up personnel and equipment for pennies on the dollar only to use them and abuse them then throw them back on the street a few years later.
By the way, all of the training has a time life, 90, 180, 360 days and the final being two years. If you have not flown in this time your chances of job re-entry are very slim. Most contract agencies require time flown on type that you are applying for to have been within the previous six months.
Michel LeBlanc is the Frank Lorenzo of Canada. The next time he or the Entrepreneurs of his ilk approach the trough again – just say no.
A good company treats its employees with dignity and respect and the employees return in kind (and no, Unions are not the answer).
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Looking at this from a European perspective, how much of this failure is due to internal mis-management, and how much due to market conditions?
MOL has long gone on about the "blood-bath" expected with too many airlines chasing too few seats, and the situation just south of the border with so many airlines being propped up by Chapter 11 is equally dire.
Obviously, any airline going out of business is an unfortunate loss for all concerned, and it seems that a lot of people on both sides of the check in desk have been left in the dark on this one.
But how much is Canada really open to no frills airlines? Being one of the largest countries in the world, with a population around half that of the UK, aren't operating costs always going to be much higher? FR might get away with selling a few seats on short hops for £1, but I can't see how that could ever work on YTO to YVR, which is an inter-continental flight in all but name.
How many "Ryanairports" are there in Canada - especially when even YMX has now closed. How much does the climate add to operating costs?
MOL has long gone on about the "blood-bath" expected with too many airlines chasing too few seats, and the situation just south of the border with so many airlines being propped up by Chapter 11 is equally dire.
Obviously, any airline going out of business is an unfortunate loss for all concerned, and it seems that a lot of people on both sides of the check in desk have been left in the dark on this one.
But how much is Canada really open to no frills airlines? Being one of the largest countries in the world, with a population around half that of the UK, aren't operating costs always going to be much higher? FR might get away with selling a few seats on short hops for £1, but I can't see how that could ever work on YTO to YVR, which is an inter-continental flight in all but name.
How many "Ryanairports" are there in Canada - especially when even YMX has now closed. How much does the climate add to operating costs?
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But how much is Canada really open to no frills airlines? Being one of the largest countries in the world, with a population around half that of the UK, aren't operating costs always going to be much higher? FR might get away with selling a few seats on short hops for £1, but I can't see how that could ever work on YTO to YVR, which is an inter-continental flight in all but name.
Westjet has managed to use smaller airports like Abbotsford and Hamilton to avoid having to fly into Toronto and Vancouver for all flights, but there aren't many places you can do that. For an airline to survive here you probably need to fly into Toronto anyways as that is where the bulk of our population is and where many international flights leave from in the east. Vancouver is the same in the west.
Maybe Canjet and Westjet will merge. Or one will make a fatal mistake and be snapped up by the survivor.
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Read the CTV article on MSN Sympatico...he was doing it at ROYAL, and did it at Jetsgo..using unearned revenue to pay bills and salary, it's called a PONZI scheme and it's the only way he knows how to play. It means that all the $$$ the company claims to have hasn't been earned yet, only projected. How the industry in Canada puts up with time after time is a mystery. Those who "trusted" Leblanc with their cash won't get it back and too bad for those who thought it was OK. It drove the industry back into the dark ages to when guys like Millard got away with the same sort of money for hire nonsense. Wake up Canadian pilots, your jobs are in danger from these kind of men...