Glasgow AFS Strike
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Glasgow AFS Strike
It has just been announced on SKY News that the Airport Fire Sevice at Glasgow Airport are to go on an indefinate strike from the 29th January. The reasons given were SAFETY ISSUES!!!!
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Thats not good news!
Glasgow will be a very quiet place if that happens.
Sky News Article
Nothing on the BBC site as yet
Glasgow will be a very quiet place if that happens.
Sky News Article
Nothing on the BBC site as yet
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As you say, not good news.
Whether Glasgow [Prestwick] International are thinking the same may be a different matter.
Can freight traffic still operate without fire cover?
No doubt the issues will be resolved prior to the 29th Jan.
Whether Glasgow [Prestwick] International are thinking the same may be a different matter.
Can freight traffic still operate without fire cover?
No doubt the issues will be resolved prior to the 29th Jan.
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the rules are definately different for pax vs cargo. I would think if there was no fire cover at all that most cargo carriers would think twice about operating. As for passenger carrying aircraft, definate no go.
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Does anyone know if Prestwick's fire crews are also T&GWU members,and are they likely to back their Glasgow colleagues by coming out as well if traffic is diverted to Prestwick?
I'm very interested,as I have friends who are due to fly from Glasgow at the end of the month.
I\'ve since gleaned this from Radio Scotland,which seems to shed a different view on the matter----------
"Airport operator BAA said there would be no disruption to services as a
result of the strike, which it said was the result of an overtime dispute.
It said fire safety teams, which are already in place at Aberdeen and
Edinburgh airports, were being introduced at Glasgow on the recommendation
of the Civil Aviation Authority.
Stephen Baxter, managing director of Glasgow Airport, said: "Clearly, we
regret the firefighters\' decision but have robust contingency plans in place
to safeguard the normal operation of the airport and ensure no disruption to
the travelling public"
I'm very interested,as I have friends who are due to fly from Glasgow at the end of the month.
I\'ve since gleaned this from Radio Scotland,which seems to shed a different view on the matter----------
"Airport operator BAA said there would be no disruption to services as a
result of the strike, which it said was the result of an overtime dispute.
It said fire safety teams, which are already in place at Aberdeen and
Edinburgh airports, were being introduced at Glasgow on the recommendation
of the Civil Aviation Authority.
Stephen Baxter, managing director of Glasgow Airport, said: "Clearly, we
regret the firefighters\' decision but have robust contingency plans in place
to safeguard the normal operation of the airport and ensure no disruption to
the travelling public"
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OJ
I like your post and if you are going to believe what you are being told then ok. If the AFS go on strike, regardless to what anybody tells you there will be MAJOR disruption. Which is why it will be sorted before then. How many spare firemen do you think they all have. As they are all run on minimum staffing I think it would be hard to supply enough staff to manage an airport like GLA. In truth they cannot, which is fact. It is OK for BAA to say this but it is another lie. If the AFS went on strike how long would it take for any spare firemen to get there from EDI, and how long from ABZ. What about the fire category at the airports they have left. I can only assume that BAA has offerred off duty firemen the chance to sh1t on their colleagues at other airports for the chance of overtime and expenses.
I cannot understand in our modern age why companies, i.e. the management, have to take their ineptness out on the employees. Meaning, it is up to them to make money without ruining the structure they already have. If they cannot then they should be removed.
If you look after the staff then they look after you.
Rgds
ILS 119.5
I like your post and if you are going to believe what you are being told then ok. If the AFS go on strike, regardless to what anybody tells you there will be MAJOR disruption. Which is why it will be sorted before then. How many spare firemen do you think they all have. As they are all run on minimum staffing I think it would be hard to supply enough staff to manage an airport like GLA. In truth they cannot, which is fact. It is OK for BAA to say this but it is another lie. If the AFS went on strike how long would it take for any spare firemen to get there from EDI, and how long from ABZ. What about the fire category at the airports they have left. I can only assume that BAA has offerred off duty firemen the chance to sh1t on their colleagues at other airports for the chance of overtime and expenses.
I cannot understand in our modern age why companies, i.e. the management, have to take their ineptness out on the employees. Meaning, it is up to them to make money without ruining the structure they already have. If they cannot then they should be removed.
If you look after the staff then they look after you.
Rgds
ILS 119.5
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I can have a little sympathy with the BAA on this one.
Are the TGWU advocating that it is OK for aircraft to be forced to divert because the highly trained Airfield Fire Service are depleted due to them putting out a toaster fire in a bar within the terminal landside ??? Or for an aircraft to land without much warning in an emergency situation and find that the fire crews are still organising themselves after dealing with something in Sock Shop ??
The primary role of these guys is surely to provide a service to the aircraft using the airport and nothing should divert them away from this task.
Whilst I am sure that in life or death circumstances or a major incident then things can be dealt with tactically, at the end of the day the terminal is no different from a shopping mall, department store, or any other commercial operation. Does it really need a dedicated fire service on site when every where else makes do with publicly provided services ?
Just a pebble in the pond
Are the TGWU advocating that it is OK for aircraft to be forced to divert because the highly trained Airfield Fire Service are depleted due to them putting out a toaster fire in a bar within the terminal landside ??? Or for an aircraft to land without much warning in an emergency situation and find that the fire crews are still organising themselves after dealing with something in Sock Shop ??
The primary role of these guys is surely to provide a service to the aircraft using the airport and nothing should divert them away from this task.
Whilst I am sure that in life or death circumstances or a major incident then things can be dealt with tactically, at the end of the day the terminal is no different from a shopping mall, department store, or any other commercial operation. Does it really need a dedicated fire service on site when every where else makes do with publicly provided services ?
Just a pebble in the pond
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I can understand the BAA with this one. Strathclyde Fire Brigade attend calls to the terminal building with the pre-determined attendance from Re nfrew and Paisley. They will be there in around 5 or 6 minutes so where the union gets 14 minutes from I don't know. Having a respone from the AFS takes resources away from the response available for an airside incident.
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Just like their civil colleagues , a bunch of prima donnas.
Please dont bore me with how they put their lives at risk. Lets look at the numbers. Most calls are mundane, or routine. these people are been given the accolade that they are heroes and shoulld be feted as such before the fact. The individuals who have been injured or killed deserve it but not the masses who sit in their fire stations, Civil and aviation, doing a few drills and playing pool , in between answering calls from their plumbing/painting/spark business, or having a kip.They knew what the job entailed when they signed up. The actual hours on/salary ratio is more than adequate rnumeration, and their time at work should be better utilised. They are fireman , they should do ALL aspects of their job which if done properly saves lifes, fine. But i'm a pilot , if i dont do my job properly the results are just as catastrophic. Same sh1t different depth.
As an ex fireman i know what i'm talking about.Mountains out of molehills to remain exclusive and irreplacable.
As a comparison lets give every soldier sitting in barracks today a medal, a payrise and public adulation in case they get hurt in a year or so, during their duties as squaddie, which they signed up for without duress.
Please dont bore me with how they put their lives at risk. Lets look at the numbers. Most calls are mundane, or routine. these people are been given the accolade that they are heroes and shoulld be feted as such before the fact. The individuals who have been injured or killed deserve it but not the masses who sit in their fire stations, Civil and aviation, doing a few drills and playing pool , in between answering calls from their plumbing/painting/spark business, or having a kip.They knew what the job entailed when they signed up. The actual hours on/salary ratio is more than adequate rnumeration, and their time at work should be better utilised. They are fireman , they should do ALL aspects of their job which if done properly saves lifes, fine. But i'm a pilot , if i dont do my job properly the results are just as catastrophic. Same sh1t different depth.
As an ex fireman i know what i'm talking about.Mountains out of molehills to remain exclusive and irreplacable.
As a comparison lets give every soldier sitting in barracks today a medal, a payrise and public adulation in case they get hurt in a year or so, during their duties as squaddie, which they signed up for without duress.
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Can freight traffic still operate without fire cover?
The individuals who have been injured or killed deserve it but not the masses who sit in their fire stations, Civil and aviation, doing a few drills and playing pool
As an ex fireman i know what i'm talking about.Mountains out of molehills to remain exclusive and irreplacable.
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Just to clarify a couple of points:
The AFS have one vehicle (Fire 7) which initially attends incidents at the terminal prior to the arrival of Strathclyde tenders, at no time whilst Fire 7 is at the terminal is fire category reduced.
BAA have a contingency plan which involves off duty staff from other BAA airports manning the station at Glasgow and providing cover, this will probably result in a reduced fire category as I have no doubt that not all the tenders will be manned. This may result in problems for the likes of Emirates, however, it is possible that they can have an additional tender available for the arrival an departure of Cat 8 a/c and resuming cat7 thereafter.
The AFS have one vehicle (Fire 7) which initially attends incidents at the terminal prior to the arrival of Strathclyde tenders, at no time whilst Fire 7 is at the terminal is fire category reduced.
BAA have a contingency plan which involves off duty staff from other BAA airports manning the station at Glasgow and providing cover, this will probably result in a reduced fire category as I have no doubt that not all the tenders will be manned. This may result in problems for the likes of Emirates, however, it is possible that they can have an additional tender available for the arrival an departure of Cat 8 a/c and resuming cat7 thereafter.
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Some back ground information for you
Fire category is based on the overall lenght and maximum fuselage width of an aircraft. It is not based on load (cargo/pax) with the exception of dangerous goods flights. If a 737 lands at any ICAO airport weather freight or passenger the same fire category must be provided.
There are so set minimum staffing levels set in CAP168 for fire personnel for category 4 to 10. It is based on licensee assessment and approved by the CAA. This means that two different airports can have different personnel numbers for the same aircraft type due to different considerations (appliance type, station location, media quantity, location of location authority etc)
"Tempory Depletion of Services" is allowed by the CAA in certain circumstances by the CAA where aircraft can still operate with a reduced level of cover.
Appliance requirements - Cat 1-4 1 appliance, Cat 5-7 2 appliance, Cat 8-9 3 appliance. There is also specific water and foam requirements for each fire category.
From the above information
Most airbus or boeing aircraft are cat 8 or 9. Any new appliance (Cobera, Sides) or even older can be operated by 2 personnel.
so all required appliance (3) can be manned with only 6 personnel although I would think that the CAA would want between 9 and 12.
Any airport will employ extra staff above requirement due to holidays and sickness. These extra staff and off duty personnel could easily make up the numbers required.
Chapter 8 of CAP168 is a great read
Regards
5Q
Fire category is based on the overall lenght and maximum fuselage width of an aircraft. It is not based on load (cargo/pax) with the exception of dangerous goods flights. If a 737 lands at any ICAO airport weather freight or passenger the same fire category must be provided.
There are so set minimum staffing levels set in CAP168 for fire personnel for category 4 to 10. It is based on licensee assessment and approved by the CAA. This means that two different airports can have different personnel numbers for the same aircraft type due to different considerations (appliance type, station location, media quantity, location of location authority etc)
"Tempory Depletion of Services" is allowed by the CAA in certain circumstances by the CAA where aircraft can still operate with a reduced level of cover.
Appliance requirements - Cat 1-4 1 appliance, Cat 5-7 2 appliance, Cat 8-9 3 appliance. There is also specific water and foam requirements for each fire category.
From the above information
Most airbus or boeing aircraft are cat 8 or 9. Any new appliance (Cobera, Sides) or even older can be operated by 2 personnel.
so all required appliance (3) can be manned with only 6 personnel although I would think that the CAA would want between 9 and 12.
Any airport will employ extra staff above requirement due to holidays and sickness. These extra staff and off duty personnel could easily make up the numbers required.
Chapter 8 of CAP168 is a great read
Regards
5Q
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B O L
As an ex fireman I thought you would understand how the AFS works, obviousely not.
The AFS has to maintain a certain category and can only be depleted by one category. If the category is depleted to attend an incident in the terminal then certain a/c cannot land. It is the same scenario as a fire outside the airfield boundary. The AFS are only allowed to attend if Air Traffic Control deem it necessary, or there is a danger to human life and only until the local fire brigade is in attendance. Unfortunately if there was an aircraft emergency at the same time then the AFS would stay put.
I'm sure all the airlines (not) will accept go arounds and unecessary holding because the fire category was depleted due to attending a small incident within the terminal. Do not get me wrong I am not undermining the danger of fire (remembering the terminal incident in Germany), but I think it is up to the local councils to increase response times to cope with such incidents and not up to BAA to reduce the safety cover.
The next thing the controllers will be doing delegeted paperwork whilst in tower or radar. Why not ask the tower controller to take a hand held VHF transmitter and do a runway inspection.
I'm going to ask my boss if I can use my laptop whilst in the cruise to do my monthly bidding, even to do any company paperwork which he hasn't managed to complete.
I'm sure the flying public will love all these safety reductions in the aviaton business.
The only reason it is safe is due to the system the way it is now. It should not deterioate in any way.
On my last trip I hope my final announcement is on the lines of the following:-
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen this is the Captain. I'm sorry but we cannot depart in time as the Airport Fire Service is attending a minor incident in the airport terminal.
30 minutes later.
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen this is the Captain again, the good news is that Fire Service is now back on the airfield. But I'm sorry to say we have missed our slot and waiting for a new one. I'll keep you updated as soon as I know anything.
20 Minutes later.
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen this is the Captain. I'm sorry to say that due to a new flow restriction over Belgium we have now incurred a delay of 2 hours. If we get an improvement I'll let you know.
20 Minutes later.
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen this is the Captain. Again another apology. There is no improvement of the slot time and because of this myself and the first officer will have to be replaced by another crew due to our hourly restrictions.
Rather than:-
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen this is the Captain. I'm sorry we have to Gatwick due to etc etc etc.
Anything can happen in aviation and will do but come on BAA lets do our best not to let it. (don't always listen to the accountants)
Rgds
ILS 119.5
should be divert to gatwick
Taken from another thread
A spokesman for BAA said: "Today\'s incident underlines the importance of having an effective firefighting presence at the airport on the airfield among the aircraft."
Shoot yourself in the foot or what!!
As an ex fireman I thought you would understand how the AFS works, obviousely not.
The AFS has to maintain a certain category and can only be depleted by one category. If the category is depleted to attend an incident in the terminal then certain a/c cannot land. It is the same scenario as a fire outside the airfield boundary. The AFS are only allowed to attend if Air Traffic Control deem it necessary, or there is a danger to human life and only until the local fire brigade is in attendance. Unfortunately if there was an aircraft emergency at the same time then the AFS would stay put.
I'm sure all the airlines (not) will accept go arounds and unecessary holding because the fire category was depleted due to attending a small incident within the terminal. Do not get me wrong I am not undermining the danger of fire (remembering the terminal incident in Germany), but I think it is up to the local councils to increase response times to cope with such incidents and not up to BAA to reduce the safety cover.
The next thing the controllers will be doing delegeted paperwork whilst in tower or radar. Why not ask the tower controller to take a hand held VHF transmitter and do a runway inspection.
I'm going to ask my boss if I can use my laptop whilst in the cruise to do my monthly bidding, even to do any company paperwork which he hasn't managed to complete.
I'm sure the flying public will love all these safety reductions in the aviaton business.
The only reason it is safe is due to the system the way it is now. It should not deterioate in any way.
On my last trip I hope my final announcement is on the lines of the following:-
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen this is the Captain. I'm sorry but we cannot depart in time as the Airport Fire Service is attending a minor incident in the airport terminal.
30 minutes later.
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen this is the Captain again, the good news is that Fire Service is now back on the airfield. But I'm sorry to say we have missed our slot and waiting for a new one. I'll keep you updated as soon as I know anything.
20 Minutes later.
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen this is the Captain. I'm sorry to say that due to a new flow restriction over Belgium we have now incurred a delay of 2 hours. If we get an improvement I'll let you know.
20 Minutes later.
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen this is the Captain. Again another apology. There is no improvement of the slot time and because of this myself and the first officer will have to be replaced by another crew due to our hourly restrictions.
Rather than:-
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen this is the Captain. I'm sorry we have to Gatwick due to etc etc etc.
Anything can happen in aviation and will do but come on BAA lets do our best not to let it. (don't always listen to the accountants)
Rgds
ILS 119.5
should be divert to gatwick
Taken from another thread
A spokesman for BAA said: "Today\'s incident underlines the importance of having an effective firefighting presence at the airport on the airfield among the aircraft."
Shoot yourself in the foot or what!!
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This is the TGWU viewpoint------------------
http://www.tgwu.org.uk/Templates/New...Action=Display
Explains a few points.
http://www.tgwu.org.uk/Templates/New...Action=Display
Explains a few points.
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I wonder why they did not raise these concerns when the same thing happened a couple of years ago at Aberdeen and Edinburgh. It is a different union involved?.
I also don't know where they get the increase in attendance time of 14 minutes, Paisley and Renfrew both do it routinely in around 5 minutes.
I also don't know where they get the increase in attendance time of 14 minutes, Paisley and Renfrew both do it routinely in around 5 minutes.