Any new routes for Cork anytime soon?
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LCY landing charges
Eoinok:
I looked at this a couple of months ago for a different project. LTN and LCY have (very roughly) comparable off-peak charges, but at peak times... well, let's say that the approach isn't the only aspect of LCY that's steep.
See LCY charges (PDF file) for details. Off-peak landing fee: GBP145. Peak: GBP685 
And since "Peak" relates to any aircraft on the ground at LCY between 0715-0930 or 1700-2000, it's pretty hard to avoid for a good business schedule.
Add to that a PLS of GBP14.25 per departing pax and an ATR42 with say 40 pax each way will cost you about GBP16 per (arriving or departing) pax just in LCY charges. LTN meanwhile was about GBP6 per departing pax, plus GBP2/tonne landing fee and GBP100 navigation services, so the same ATR42 (17 tonnes MTOW) would come out at about GBP4.60/pax if my maths is right. (I take the ATR42 for comparison as the ATR72 isn't approved for LCY).
Now we could make a reasonable case that an extra GBP11 of one-way yield is achievable into LCY compared to LTN... but I'm not sure about the volume. I'd guess that a fair proportion of RE's LTN pax are either leisure passengers looking for the lowest fare, or else are doing a DIY connection on to an EZY flight out of LTN, and LCY wouldn't suit either of those groups. I suspect a switch to LCY would lose more revenue than it would gain.
Add to that the peak-time slot shortage at LCY, and the need for crew training for the steep approach, and this might go some way to explaining why it's less attractive to RE.
C.
I looked at this a couple of months ago for a different project. LTN and LCY have (very roughly) comparable off-peak charges, but at peak times... well, let's say that the approach isn't the only aspect of LCY that's steep.
See LCY charges (PDF file) for details. Off-peak landing fee: GBP145. Peak: GBP685 And since "Peak" relates to any aircraft on the ground at LCY between 0715-0930 or 1700-2000, it's pretty hard to avoid for a good business schedule.Add to that a PLS of GBP14.25 per departing pax and an ATR42 with say 40 pax each way will cost you about GBP16 per (arriving or departing) pax just in LCY charges. LTN meanwhile was about GBP6 per departing pax, plus GBP2/tonne landing fee and GBP100 navigation services, so the same ATR42 (17 tonnes MTOW) would come out at about GBP4.60/pax if my maths is right. (I take the ATR42 for comparison as the ATR72 isn't approved for LCY).
Now we could make a reasonable case that an extra GBP11 of one-way yield is achievable into LCY compared to LTN... but I'm not sure about the volume. I'd guess that a fair proportion of RE's LTN pax are either leisure passengers looking for the lowest fare, or else are doing a DIY connection on to an EZY flight out of LTN, and LCY wouldn't suit either of those groups. I suspect a switch to LCY would lose more revenue than it would gain.
Add to that the peak-time slot shortage at LCY, and the need for crew training for the steep approach, and this might go some way to explaining why it's less attractive to RE.
C.
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Cheers Cyrano!!
When you add up all the costs that way that you have just done, it does make sense!!.
I agree alright that most of the passengers to LTN might be leisure pasengers as you suggest and flying onwards with FR, EZY or wizz etc.
So any LCY out of Cork wont be seen for a long time.....
What we need is some TA traffic
When you add up all the costs that way that you have just done, it does make sense!!.
I agree alright that most of the passengers to LTN might be leisure pasengers as you suggest and flying onwards with FR, EZY or wizz etc.
So any LCY out of Cork wont be seen for a long time.....
What we need is some TA traffic
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Lets not forget that Luton has the UK’s second biggest catchment area after Heathrow. City Airport might be fine if you are going to the City but anywhere else it isn't so good.
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'As we know from Dublin when Ryanair began a NCL service, Durham Tees Valley felt the impact. I can only see the new bmibaby service lasting until someone starts NCL.'
I don't believe passengers to Dublin from Durham Tees Valley have gone down at all since Ryanair started flying from Newcastle. For instance in June 2004 there was an 12% increase in passengers from DTV to Dublin over June 2003, 8% increase in July 2004, over 2003 and -1% in August, but NCL had 7% less passengers in Aug over Aug 2003 (Although I do admit that I think in Summer 2002, there was an extra flight to Dublin on a Friday and Sunday that has not operated since)
And if people wish to travel from Cork to Newcastle they can use the new bmibaby services to Durham Tees Valley and then travel onto Newcastle.
I don't believe passengers to Dublin from Durham Tees Valley have gone down at all since Ryanair started flying from Newcastle. For instance in June 2004 there was an 12% increase in passengers from DTV to Dublin over June 2003, 8% increase in July 2004, over 2003 and -1% in August, but NCL had 7% less passengers in Aug over Aug 2003 (Although I do admit that I think in Summer 2002, there was an extra flight to Dublin on a Friday and Sunday that has not operated since)
And if people wish to travel from Cork to Newcastle they can use the new bmibaby services to Durham Tees Valley and then travel onto Newcastle.
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eoinok said "Always couldn't figure out why RE had this thing for Luton airport?"
Obviously no idea of the huge Irish catchment in north London and Luton!
Airlines like to fly to airports that fill thier planes and give good yields. Until RYR virtually abandoned Luton for Stansted in the early 1990's, Luton was the focal point for all low cost travel between Ireland and London. Virgin employed 2xB727's in addition to RYR's muliple BAC 1-11 rotations to Dublin, Cork, Knock, Shannon and thier ATR's flying into what were then rather rural regional airports. Britannia had 2 return flight per day to Belfast.
Planes were full of Irish travellers then, just like today!
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...to_nr=2&size=L
Obviously no idea of the huge Irish catchment in north London and Luton!
Airlines like to fly to airports that fill thier planes and give good yields. Until RYR virtually abandoned Luton for Stansted in the early 1990's, Luton was the focal point for all low cost travel between Ireland and London. Virgin employed 2xB727's in addition to RYR's muliple BAC 1-11 rotations to Dublin, Cork, Knock, Shannon and thier ATR's flying into what were then rather rural regional airports. Britannia had 2 return flight per day to Belfast.
Planes were full of Irish travellers then, just like today!
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...to_nr=2&size=L
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Some ppruner's have the amazing ability of twisting threads to have a side swipe. This time I refer to eoinok who it seems from previous posts has incredible inside information which he generously brings to this forum. However, it always appears on occassion to be at the expense of RE. In this instance how could you possibly question REs business model on their LTN operations. My understanding is that they are the best performing routes for them both in terms of volumn and yield. Comparing an LCY model to a LTN model is the proverbial chalk and cheese. I can't imagine either that the route is low-cost. I would suspect it is appealing to the pax who prefers direct access and is prepared to pay for it. Currently both routes are also protected because of infrasturce deficits at both WAT and GWY. I also understand that both routes are capacity constrained requiring additional frequency. Why knock it? Well done RE.......lets now get back to the thread you started....ok eoin!
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Got to admire RE for having a go at using ATR kit to compete UK-IRL but hey how does it stack up GWY-LTN with ATR when Ryanair come barging in with their 737-800 on SNN-LTN at EURO 1 each way. Tough as hell out there for RE.
Waterford - Luton is a winner with the help of all that EURO 22 million in subsidies on the Irish PSO routes. But stand alone IRL-UK services with ATR's and it must be tough as hell. Got to admire RE for having a go though. Must be one of the last small true regional prop operators now in Europe.
Must be frightening for them looking down the barrel of a 737 fuselage at Ryanair, BMIBaby and JET2 coming to get them!
Neidin.
Waterford - Luton is a winner with the help of all that EURO 22 million in subsidies on the Irish PSO routes. But stand alone IRL-UK services with ATR's and it must be tough as hell. Got to admire RE for having a go though. Must be one of the last small true regional prop operators now in Europe.
Must be frightening for them looking down the barrel of a 737 fuselage at Ryanair, BMIBaby and JET2 coming to get them!
Neidin.
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Would agree with some of your points niedin. However, my main point on both WAT and GWY is that the product is direct access. No need to drive to and from CRK for WAT pax which is about an hour and no need to drive to SNN or EIKN for GWY pax, which in both instances is a two hour drive. Low cost competition has always been a factor for RE on LTN ops, just because a loco war is about to start in my view will only marginally impact on both. And as it has been capacity constrained this will equal out. My point again.....there is a sufficient volumn of pax who wish to purchase direct access and are preapred to pay over and above to sustain and grow these two routes. Finally, how long will the locos continue to over supply seats....not too long I feel!
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runwayedge, I think we may have clashed before on an RE issue before when I suggested in Cork they should be moved off to the side to make room for TA traffic and more rotation etc? 
My comment on that I could not get why RE did LTN instead of LCY was posed as a question, this is a discussion forum after all, and not as a swipe at RE.
It has since been answered by Cyrano by way of an excellent break down of landing fee's and crew retraining feee's etc and by nedin who plumped in with the PSO subsidies. I didn't realise this route, WAT - LTN, fell in under this scheme?? I remember seeing before a break down that was published in the national papers here of the subsidies that RE get. One year it worked out at something like €463 (or was in punts?, cant remember) per passenger they carried on the DUB - GWY or was in Donegal (CFN) route. Similar sort of figure but a bit less on all the other routes.
Back to the point of the thread anyway..............
My comment on that I could not get why RE did LTN instead of LCY was posed as a question, this is a discussion forum after all, and not as a swipe at RE.
It has since been answered by Cyrano by way of an excellent break down of landing fee's and crew retraining feee's etc and by nedin who plumped in with the PSO subsidies. I didn't realise this route, WAT - LTN, fell in under this scheme?? I remember seeing before a break down that was published in the national papers here of the subsidies that RE get. One year it worked out at something like €463 (or was in punts?, cant remember) per passenger they carried on the DUB - GWY or was in Donegal (CFN) route. Similar sort of figure but a bit less on all the other routes.
Back to the point of the thread anyway..............
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Sorry for confusing issues. The Waterford -Luton run does not get direct PSO money but does get marketing moeny from Irish Govt. The route does benefit on the overall cross subsidy of the PSO money across all ops.
