HUMBERSIDE
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Methinks the Lo-co hope is gone. Sorry chaps but that seems to be the fact. HUY missed out a few years ago by not bending the statistics. The catchment is about 500,000 with 1 hour but bursts to over 5,000,000 within 2 hours but HUY likes it's reputation as a 'local' airport so do not expect to see a lot apart from charter. Also they stuck to their guns and would not do 'suicide deals' with the likes of M O'L etc (free landings for life and a £1 for every pax the plane brings in ....no way Hosee!!!)
This may upset people who want lo-co but given all aspects lo-co could have killed HUY stone dead in a very short space of time.
HUY is now running at a profit, a small one but it is in the 'black' two years running (never before in its history!). Liverpool and DSA ain't and I do not think Tees-side is either, Exeter have got to spend about £15m on their terminal to satisfy lo-co, how long will it take to return the money spent and then make a profit. Cash Flow analysis spreadsheets at the ready, what's the NPV at 10%? About 20 years give or take!!! any advances?!!! (this is the bit the SLF do not understand)
Cheers
This may upset people who want lo-co but given all aspects lo-co could have killed HUY stone dead in a very short space of time.
HUY is now running at a profit, a small one but it is in the 'black' two years running (never before in its history!). Liverpool and DSA ain't and I do not think Tees-side is either, Exeter have got to spend about £15m on their terminal to satisfy lo-co, how long will it take to return the money spent and then make a profit. Cash Flow analysis spreadsheets at the ready, what's the NPV at 10%? About 20 years give or take!!! any advances?!!! (this is the bit the SLF do not understand)
Cheers
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Stolen routes from HUY to DSA.........call the cops?
It seems DSA and HUY will always vie for credidability, routes and the supporters of both airports seem to loose sight that both airports have a role to play in the development of the region.
I believe that HUY has miised the boat also when it comes to Lo Cost, I personally think HUY couldnt handle a 2x daily service to any european route and make a profit with 737 / A319 a/c.
Maybe a niche operator like EU jet with slightly smaller equipment could possibly make said routes pay, HUY is an enigma, it is a good regional airport but just in the wrong geographical location. Travel 2 hours from HUY and the figures are great but then this is also the catchment area for DSA and with a far more routes for the masses to choose I think DSA has to be the choice.
The FlyBe rumours of them operating from HUY are abound but in reality what routes would they open up, HUY-ABZ would probably the one and only.....time will tell if this rumour becomes reality.
DSA is and will attract the low costs, regional operators and charter's possibly even long haul carriers in the comming years and that is good for the region that both DSA and HUY are located.
It seems DSA and HUY will always vie for credidability, routes and the supporters of both airports seem to loose sight that both airports have a role to play in the development of the region.
I believe that HUY has miised the boat also when it comes to Lo Cost, I personally think HUY couldnt handle a 2x daily service to any european route and make a profit with 737 / A319 a/c.
Maybe a niche operator like EU jet with slightly smaller equipment could possibly make said routes pay, HUY is an enigma, it is a good regional airport but just in the wrong geographical location. Travel 2 hours from HUY and the figures are great but then this is also the catchment area for DSA and with a far more routes for the masses to choose I think DSA has to be the choice.
The FlyBe rumours of them operating from HUY are abound but in reality what routes would they open up, HUY-ABZ would probably the one and only.....time will tell if this rumour becomes reality.
DSA is and will attract the low costs, regional operators and charter's possibly even long haul carriers in the comming years and that is good for the region that both DSA and HUY are located.
Join Date: May 2005
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I suppose i agree when you say that HUY may have missed the boat as far as lo-co is concerned although i have to say that there is demand for some of the more popular destinations i.e. alicante, malaga, palma, CDG and AMS although probably not at a frequency similar to that of DSA or NEMA!
The catchment area for HUY is more nearer 1mill rather than 500,000, within an hours drive! The airport is more like exeter, serving a predominantly rural area although Hull and Grimsby are large enough to support some flight services!
It would appear to me that HUY are being careful in not putting all theit eggs in one basket and are looking for niches to make money!
It just astounds me that the likes of BOH, owned by the majority shareholder of HUY, can attract this traffic and HUY cant. Ive drawn my own conclusion that any potential operator is going to look at DSA's affect on HUY before they move in! Although it is not the best geographical location i dont feel as though they are serving the area the best they can.
There is a lot of work to do, we just need to get rid of this small town mentality!
The catchment area for HUY is more nearer 1mill rather than 500,000, within an hours drive! The airport is more like exeter, serving a predominantly rural area although Hull and Grimsby are large enough to support some flight services!
It would appear to me that HUY are being careful in not putting all theit eggs in one basket and are looking for niches to make money!
It just astounds me that the likes of BOH, owned by the majority shareholder of HUY, can attract this traffic and HUY cant. Ive drawn my own conclusion that any potential operator is going to look at DSA's affect on HUY before they move in! Although it is not the best geographical location i dont feel as though they are serving the area the best they can.
There is a lot of work to do, we just need to get rid of this small town mentality!
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www.phpbber.com/phpbb/?mforum=flyhuy
Just set up a forum dedicated to HUY and DSA feel free to enter your comments
Just set up a forum dedicated to HUY and DSA feel free to enter your comments
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Circseam,
May I suggest you check HUY schedules. OK they may not be 130 pax a flight but:
AMS thrice daily
ABZ four times daily
With 2 baggage belts, one of which is designed for 767, handling up to 400 pax at any one time is not a serious problem. HUY could manage it every hour. This happens quite regulary in the Summer. ATC have no problems, there are so many 'puddles' zipping in and out it keeps them well busy in the spaces between the big jets.
Cheers
May I suggest you check HUY schedules. OK they may not be 130 pax a flight but:
AMS thrice daily
ABZ four times daily
With 2 baggage belts, one of which is designed for 767, handling up to 400 pax at any one time is not a serious problem. HUY could manage it every hour. This happens quite regulary in the Summer. ATC have no problems, there are so many 'puddles' zipping in and out it keeps them well busy in the spaces between the big jets.
Cheers
Join Date: May 2005
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The HUY-AMS service is very popular and a similar route to CDG and Brussels would also work!
I have flown on a number of occasions to Copenhagen and you would be surprised at the number of people that origionated at HUY on the AMS also travelling to Copenhagen! Im sure the number could warrent a daily service!
Low-cost is not something the airport needs but it is something the local people want, wether or not we will get a lo-co is another story but i know the market is there we just need a STABLE airline to provide such a service!
As i have said before if youve ever been on the so called (Lap top LM) early morning service you would be surprised how busy it is!
I have flown on a number of occasions to Copenhagen and you would be surprised at the number of people that origionated at HUY on the AMS also travelling to Copenhagen! Im sure the number could warrent a daily service!
Low-cost is not something the airport needs but it is something the local people want, wether or not we will get a lo-co is another story but i know the market is there we just need a STABLE airline to provide such a service!
As i have said before if youve ever been on the so called (Lap top LM) early morning service you would be surprised how busy it is!
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Airhumberside,
I think the 767's are there for the usual period -up to the end of June/mid July.
Andy,
The CDG/Orly would be a great route but, now that AF is merged with KLM, they may not want to dilute the pax to AMS. Copenhagen sounds interesting never been there before. Brussels would be a reasonable lo-co 'business' route and possibly Dusseldorf,but no doubt the sort of lo-co HUY will go for will be some beach resort somewhere.
I think the 767's are there for the usual period -up to the end of June/mid July.
Andy,
The CDG/Orly would be a great route but, now that AF is merged with KLM, they may not want to dilute the pax to AMS. Copenhagen sounds interesting never been there before. Brussels would be a reasonable lo-co 'business' route and possibly Dusseldorf,but no doubt the sort of lo-co HUY will go for will be some beach resort somewhere.
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I think those destinations would work though not with a large aircraft! The bucket and spade type of destinations would be good but the airport needs the right mix of services and throw in a few business routes and i would say you have a succesful regional airport!
Dont know about AF i think they would compliment each other rather than compete with each other! It would just mean that they could offer more choice than they do at the moment, which is a good thing! I think regional air with an EMB-145 would be perfect!
Copenhagen would be best served by Eastern due to it being predominantly a business route and their low seat costs would mean that they wouldnt have to fill their aircraft in order to make a profit! I believe corus and the local shipping industry would be the biggest customer, as these tend to be the people who usualy go HUY to Copenhagen via AMS!
Im not sure about Dus but its worth a try! I understand an airline operated this before but pax numbers declined making the route unprofitable!
BRU has been operated before and was popular with the business end of the market, helped by the code share with Sabena allowing onward connections!
There has been a market for these before and the market for air travel has grown considerably in the last few years, so i can only suggest tht these routes will be just as popular, if not more than they were when they were last operated!
Dont know about AF i think they would compliment each other rather than compete with each other! It would just mean that they could offer more choice than they do at the moment, which is a good thing! I think regional air with an EMB-145 would be perfect!
Copenhagen would be best served by Eastern due to it being predominantly a business route and their low seat costs would mean that they wouldnt have to fill their aircraft in order to make a profit! I believe corus and the local shipping industry would be the biggest customer, as these tend to be the people who usualy go HUY to Copenhagen via AMS!
Im not sure about Dus but its worth a try! I understand an airline operated this before but pax numbers declined making the route unprofitable!
BRU has been operated before and was popular with the business end of the market, helped by the code share with Sabena allowing onward connections!
There has been a market for these before and the market for air travel has grown considerably in the last few years, so i can only suggest tht these routes will be just as popular, if not more than they were when they were last operated!
Thread Starter
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I believe any CPH service should be operated by Cimber Air in codeshare with SAS, like at NCL and ABZ. This would provide some connecting possibilities as well as local passengers. A stop in Esjberg would also allow the route to capture North Sea Oil related traffic
Bear Behind
Andy,
What are the demand figures HUY-CDG or ORY? I'm interested to know if the figures that you have really do justify the use of an Embraer 145 - 3 times a day, say - as well as maintaining a 3 or 4 daily KLM service (whether it be F50, F70 or a mix thereof). The demand analysis surely take account of that.
p-k-b
What are the demand figures HUY-CDG or ORY? I'm interested to know if the figures that you have really do justify the use of an Embraer 145 - 3 times a day, say - as well as maintaining a 3 or 4 daily KLM service (whether it be F50, F70 or a mix thereof). The demand analysis surely take account of that.
p-k-b
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The former CDG route opeerated by Gill used an ATR42 aircraft and then increased capacity by adding the ATR72 both two daily rotations! I believe the EMB145 would be the right aircraft for the job, but just my opinion thats all!
When the previous service was running the average load factors where increasing and the KLM was not affected as the pax had more choice of destinations with both AF and KLM and they just complimented each other!
The only problem people had with the service is that it was not a jet hence the reason i suggested the EMB-145!
The CDG services could have been just as popular as the AMS had it not closed down after Gills demise! Just unfortunate for the region, many of the businesses in the region used this service just as they do the AMS!
When the previous service was running the average load factors where increasing and the KLM was not affected as the pax had more choice of destinations with both AF and KLM and they just complimented each other!
The only problem people had with the service is that it was not a jet hence the reason i suggested the EMB-145!
The CDG services could have been just as popular as the AMS had it not closed down after Gills demise! Just unfortunate for the region, many of the businesses in the region used this service just as they do the AMS!
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7006 Fan - My original post may of mislead you into thinking that I was referring to the airport actually being unable to handle low cost operators, I wasnt, I was referring to the airport being able to attract enough pax to operate a 2x daily flight to european routes (other than Amsterdam).
I just cant see any of the major low cost operators being able to make a profit on a 2x daily flight BUT I also thought that Blackpool flights to the continent would'nt also work and look how they seem to be doing.
As a user of HUY and an ex-resident of the area I would like to see HUY thrive but lets be honest, high cost flights to ABZ and one european route to AMS does not seem to have the attraction that could pull in the punters. DSA from the start has been well publisised, the low cost operator has advertised the flights available and from what I have seen the services are attracting the punters with good load factors.
I just cant see any of the major low cost operators being able to make a profit on a 2x daily flight BUT I also thought that Blackpool flights to the continent would'nt also work and look how they seem to be doing.
As a user of HUY and an ex-resident of the area I would like to see HUY thrive but lets be honest, high cost flights to ABZ and one european route to AMS does not seem to have the attraction that could pull in the punters. DSA from the start has been well publisised, the low cost operator has advertised the flights available and from what I have seen the services are attracting the punters with good load factors.
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DSA has an enviable catchment area nd it will be great to see how it developes! HUY does not need high frequency LCC routes it just needs the right ones at the right frequency, maybe 3 times weekly for the more popular Alicante, Palma, Malaga etc. I dont understand why you think only AMS would be succesful, i think a daily AMS would pull the pax in but also a regular CDG service wouldnt go a miss! Maybe a single based a/c like BMIBaby at MME would be suficient nd would pull the pax in! I believe the airport could easy double the pax number per annum and sustain that! The region needs this, if it cant be kept running then i cant see a bright future for the region at all!!
Bear Behind
Andy,
With what traffic? Business or leisure? How are they going to stimulate the demand? It's all very well saying "I want more destinations" but if you can't get bums on seats, it isn't going to work. I'm a great supporter of HUY - it's a fab little uncomplicated airport - but even I have only used it a max of 4 times per YEAR! There lies the other issue - you need to stimulate both outbound and inbound traffic - it can't all be one way. This is where HUY has big problems as well. I want HUY to survive, I believe it deserves a service to at least one other major European destination but I don't believe the traffic or yields are there to make that happen - yet. Here's hoping one day it will work out.
p-k-b
With what traffic? Business or leisure? How are they going to stimulate the demand? It's all very well saying "I want more destinations" but if you can't get bums on seats, it isn't going to work. I'm a great supporter of HUY - it's a fab little uncomplicated airport - but even I have only used it a max of 4 times per YEAR! There lies the other issue - you need to stimulate both outbound and inbound traffic - it can't all be one way. This is where HUY has big problems as well. I want HUY to survive, I believe it deserves a service to at least one other major European destination but I don't believe the traffic or yields are there to make that happen - yet. Here's hoping one day it will work out.
p-k-b
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There is without a doubt, some kind of market for low fares flights from Humberside. Amsterdam, Paris, Dublin, Belfast, Jersey, Malaga, Palma, Faro, Alicante and Prague could all sustain a low fares operator. The size of the aircraft is the main problem at the moment. No-one in the UK with the possible exception of Euromanx has something in the 60-90 seat category that is suitable to operate these routes. Business opportunities exist also for flights to Brussels, Copenhagen and Esbjerg. This debate will go on and on, but unfortunately until anything is concrete, we will just have to keep our fingers crossed.
Regards
Mike
Regards
Mike
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Yes i agree the area is not of any great interest of inbound passengers except business! Generaly the flights to the tourist destinations dont attract inbound either people who use them are actualy from the area on a return ticket, as far as i know anyway! The ones i could see potential in are LGW/LHR (which is unlikely at the latter for obvious reasons! CPH via Esbjerg (to support the shipping industry in the area (I presume thats why its popular with people from HUY to go there via AMS)! CDG for an alternative to AMS, DUB possibly but at a daily frequency at the most, with a LCC! And a few Lo-co favorites like Alicante, malaga, faro palma!
I know that some of these will probably never happen but im optimistic that a Lo-co of some sort will come in and at least serve the core routes listed above! As long as HUY keeps the AMS then im quite happy!
I know that some of these will probably never happen but im optimistic that a Lo-co of some sort will come in and at least serve the core routes listed above! As long as HUY keeps the AMS then im quite happy!
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It's very unlikely that HUY will ever attract low cost operators, simply because, given the competition from LBA/DSA/EMA, they don't have the catchment area or demand to warrent any of the said operators even considering it.
If any other operator was interested in any other scheduled route from HUY other than ABZ or AMS, it would have happened by now.
The Gill Paris flight was merely an extension of a night freight operation and nothing more, it barely broke even, and after 9/11, it was one of the first routes to be pulled by Gill's administrators. Gill went bust because of increased post 9/11 insurance costs, no other reason.
As for the other scheduled flights that have tried, and failed, from HUY, it's all down to lack of demand, regardless of what anyone "thinks" or "would like".
ABZ is an expensive airport to fly in to.
To operate a low cost flight anywhere, you need a big aircraft (minimum of 50 seats) to offer the cross section of low to medium cost fares, this couldnt be justified on the HUY - ABZ route, which is only patronised by a relatively small number of passengers on each sector (20 or so), and that's where Eastern have the edge, and always will.
Until and alternative operator gets (ie pays for) interline handling facilities at AMS, KLM will always have that route as their own (as they will at many other regional airports), and it will never be low cost.
HUY is good at the "bucket and spade" flights, and will never succeed at much else, thats not their fault - it's just the hard facts given the location and demand of the area.
I don't wish HUY any ill will, but frankly, any other thoughts of expansion are simply bollocks, they are danger of being reduced to nothing within 3 years by the far more efficient operation at DSA and LBA, yet they don't seem to be doing anything about it.
By the way, Bournmouth, although also being owned by MAN PLC, has twice the catchment area, and, it would appear, an infinently better marketing strategy.
If any other operator was interested in any other scheduled route from HUY other than ABZ or AMS, it would have happened by now.
The Gill Paris flight was merely an extension of a night freight operation and nothing more, it barely broke even, and after 9/11, it was one of the first routes to be pulled by Gill's administrators. Gill went bust because of increased post 9/11 insurance costs, no other reason.
As for the other scheduled flights that have tried, and failed, from HUY, it's all down to lack of demand, regardless of what anyone "thinks" or "would like".
ABZ is an expensive airport to fly in to.
To operate a low cost flight anywhere, you need a big aircraft (minimum of 50 seats) to offer the cross section of low to medium cost fares, this couldnt be justified on the HUY - ABZ route, which is only patronised by a relatively small number of passengers on each sector (20 or so), and that's where Eastern have the edge, and always will.
Until and alternative operator gets (ie pays for) interline handling facilities at AMS, KLM will always have that route as their own (as they will at many other regional airports), and it will never be low cost.
HUY is good at the "bucket and spade" flights, and will never succeed at much else, thats not their fault - it's just the hard facts given the location and demand of the area.
I don't wish HUY any ill will, but frankly, any other thoughts of expansion are simply bollocks, they are danger of being reduced to nothing within 3 years by the far more efficient operation at DSA and LBA, yet they don't seem to be doing anything about it.
By the way, Bournmouth, although also being owned by MAN PLC, has twice the catchment area, and, it would appear, an infinently better marketing strategy.