DHL rejects Belgian demand for less noisy planes (Merged)
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Mark
You shouldn't assume ...
Gemini and Lufthansa Cargo operate MD-11 freighters on behalf of DHL. FatEx? Are you quite mad?
Anyway, if the public don't fancy the MD-11, I suppose we could always go back to Diesel 8s. That'll bloody teach them! Fancy that, having operated marginal stage 3 tree-holers for a decade, and having replaced them with compartively noiseless 757s, and having replaced DC-10s and DC-8s, suddenly the NIMBYs start bitching about MD-11s. Well you gimme a break!
One problem is that departures and arrivals into BRU at night are now dictated by political rather than operational requirements. So all sorts of weird and wonderful SIDs and STARs are in place off each and every possible, well almost, runway. Alas, instead of disturbing the same people who's always been disturbed, noise has now been distributed to effect a much larger number of people, including the likes of tgdxb who's suddenly been made to realise he's living next to an airport. Oh dear. Now instead of putting blame where it belongs, namely with politicians for meddling with operations and for failing to properly insulate affected houses (funded by increased take-off fees at night, i.e. DHL, but those funds seems to have disappeared or at least not put to use) the dear politicians with their army of spin controllers immediately get the public swung in every which direction, eventually pointing towards DHL. And people goddamn fall for the old Belgian politio trick of playing Flemmish against Wallons while they wash their hands. Mind numbing.
Yes, our aeroplanes fly at night and aeroplanes make noise. However, in order to pick up a packet in Rome late afternoon and delivering it in London next morning, requires that you do the transporting bit sort of inbetween. Between afternoon and morning is evening and night (I'm doing this slowly so that tgdxb doesn't get lost) and this is when DHL, FedEx, UPS, TNT etc does the transporting bit. Insofar as noone as yet inveted the transmogryffic teleporter, we're sadly being forced to do the transporting bit with existing means. Those means are aeroplanes. To what should have been the great pleasure of Belgium in general and the Brussels area in particular, DHL has enjoyed tremendous growth over the last decade and has developed the BRU Hub into being a major employer. This is supposedly good, as Belgium lost a lot of industry jobs in the same period.
Now we've got new ownership with even bigger plans to slay dragons far and wide, who have merged 2 major and 1 smaller brand into a 170.000 strong workforce and a very large number of billions of Euro's in turnover to make that happen. Part of the plan is an intercontinental superhub and a considerable expansion of the regional network.. That requires transportation and unless someone invents the transmogryffic teleporter, existing means will have to be used. The regional European fleet is planned to grow from 40-odd to 75-odd over the next 6ish years. The number of daily intercontinental flights out of Europe will go from 6ish to 20ish. All that is publicly expressed plans by DPWN. DHL needs to grow and would like to stay in BRU, but the infrastructure will need considerable updating. If, for whatever reason, BRU cannot provide the required platform for growth then DHL will be forced to take it's intercontinental superhub elsewhere, to what will be a rather substantial loss to the Belgian economy.
But tkdxb will be able to sleep a little better at night (unless they plant a TGV line or a motorway in his backyard - you never know) so that's alright. Those 15000 people loosing their jobs are mainly Flemmish speaking anyway, so he could care less.
As luck would have it, I also speak German, and Leipzig should be a charming place the optimists say.
Gemini and Lufthansa Cargo operate MD-11 freighters on behalf of DHL. FatEx? Are you quite mad?
Anyway, if the public don't fancy the MD-11, I suppose we could always go back to Diesel 8s. That'll bloody teach them! Fancy that, having operated marginal stage 3 tree-holers for a decade, and having replaced them with compartively noiseless 757s, and having replaced DC-10s and DC-8s, suddenly the NIMBYs start bitching about MD-11s. Well you gimme a break!
One problem is that departures and arrivals into BRU at night are now dictated by political rather than operational requirements. So all sorts of weird and wonderful SIDs and STARs are in place off each and every possible, well almost, runway. Alas, instead of disturbing the same people who's always been disturbed, noise has now been distributed to effect a much larger number of people, including the likes of tgdxb who's suddenly been made to realise he's living next to an airport. Oh dear. Now instead of putting blame where it belongs, namely with politicians for meddling with operations and for failing to properly insulate affected houses (funded by increased take-off fees at night, i.e. DHL, but those funds seems to have disappeared or at least not put to use) the dear politicians with their army of spin controllers immediately get the public swung in every which direction, eventually pointing towards DHL. And people goddamn fall for the old Belgian politio trick of playing Flemmish against Wallons while they wash their hands. Mind numbing.
Yes, our aeroplanes fly at night and aeroplanes make noise. However, in order to pick up a packet in Rome late afternoon and delivering it in London next morning, requires that you do the transporting bit sort of inbetween. Between afternoon and morning is evening and night (I'm doing this slowly so that tgdxb doesn't get lost) and this is when DHL, FedEx, UPS, TNT etc does the transporting bit. Insofar as noone as yet inveted the transmogryffic teleporter, we're sadly being forced to do the transporting bit with existing means. Those means are aeroplanes. To what should have been the great pleasure of Belgium in general and the Brussels area in particular, DHL has enjoyed tremendous growth over the last decade and has developed the BRU Hub into being a major employer. This is supposedly good, as Belgium lost a lot of industry jobs in the same period.
Now we've got new ownership with even bigger plans to slay dragons far and wide, who have merged 2 major and 1 smaller brand into a 170.000 strong workforce and a very large number of billions of Euro's in turnover to make that happen. Part of the plan is an intercontinental superhub and a considerable expansion of the regional network.. That requires transportation and unless someone invents the transmogryffic teleporter, existing means will have to be used. The regional European fleet is planned to grow from 40-odd to 75-odd over the next 6ish years. The number of daily intercontinental flights out of Europe will go from 6ish to 20ish. All that is publicly expressed plans by DPWN. DHL needs to grow and would like to stay in BRU, but the infrastructure will need considerable updating. If, for whatever reason, BRU cannot provide the required platform for growth then DHL will be forced to take it's intercontinental superhub elsewhere, to what will be a rather substantial loss to the Belgian economy.
But tkdxb will be able to sleep a little better at night (unless they plant a TGV line or a motorway in his backyard - you never know) so that's alright. Those 15000 people loosing their jobs are mainly Flemmish speaking anyway, so he could care less.
As luck would have it, I also speak German, and Leipzig should be a charming place the optimists say.
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Does anybody know how many db's a train makes as it rumbles past one of these Flemish or Walloon homes at night?.....every night!! Do they have silent trucks or are the cars and scooters so muffled that they pass through the night unheard? Beats me how 3 or 4 planes a night on very tight SID's and STAR's, can be any diffrent?
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Having spent the coldest summer in my life in a top-floor apartment in NE Brussels, I can say with authority that the MD-11 is really loud. From the ground, 744s sound like clipper ships in comparison.
That said, I have little sympathy for the NIMBY crowd in two conditions:
A) Their domicile was constructed after the airport was.
B) The government was so stupid/corrupt/bureaucratically dysfunctional as to construct an airport immediately downwind of their capital and major population center.
B) applies in this case. It's now worse that the EU has moved all their bureaucratic machinery to northern Brussels.
Trains go slowly through Brussels., but there's only so much you can back off the throttle in climbout.
That said, I have little sympathy for the NIMBY crowd in two conditions:
A) Their domicile was constructed after the airport was.
B) The government was so stupid/corrupt/bureaucratically dysfunctional as to construct an airport immediately downwind of their capital and major population center.
B) applies in this case. It's now worse that the EU has moved all their bureaucratic machinery to northern Brussels.
Trains go slowly through Brussels., but there's only so much you can back off the throttle in climbout.
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I am not a firm believer in the increasing number of employees that DHL - ever changing numbers - are promising to Belgium. Furthermore the costs of employment in Europe is so high that the only key differentiator Belgiums needs to develop are value add skills.
Whatever you do around Brussels you will affect people, whether me or others. And it will disturb a fraction of the population. We can argue about how big it is, of course.
This said an operation like DHL should not be at an airport so close to a city like Brussels. Other airports are available - and have expressed interest - even in quieter locations. Now if DHL are so inflexible that they do only want BRU then I'd say I do not mind the move to Leipzig. Despite all the 'compliments' made about this country, it has a high faculty of adapting to circumstances despite its small size.
Coming back to my initial issue - it was not so much that I am again DHL in particular but about noise at night & the danger of using 20 for T.O. All this done in a unilaterla way. No need to restart an argument here unless something ew can be added to it.
And yes, politics is for a large part the cause of all these problems but not only.
Whatever you do around Brussels you will affect people, whether me or others. And it will disturb a fraction of the population. We can argue about how big it is, of course.
This said an operation like DHL should not be at an airport so close to a city like Brussels. Other airports are available - and have expressed interest - even in quieter locations. Now if DHL are so inflexible that they do only want BRU then I'd say I do not mind the move to Leipzig. Despite all the 'compliments' made about this country, it has a high faculty of adapting to circumstances despite its small size.
Coming back to my initial issue - it was not so much that I am again DHL in particular but about noise at night & the danger of using 20 for T.O. All this done in a unilaterla way. No need to restart an argument here unless something ew can be added to it.
And yes, politics is for a large part the cause of all these problems but not only.
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tgdxb
What of the following do you not understand ..... there is no additional danger in using 20 vs 25L/R for departure.
As to the noise, I sympathise and suggest that you elect different politicians, but I think you'll find that the politicians will not want to lose the DHL business to LEJ or elsewhere and that all flavours of politics will take the same view.
What of the following do you not understand ..... there is no additional danger in using 20 vs 25L/R for departure.
As to the noise, I sympathise and suggest that you elect different politicians, but I think you'll find that the politicians will not want to lose the DHL business to LEJ or elsewhere and that all flavours of politics will take the same view.
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I'm just coming back from Leipzig, where I heard that Leipzig was choosen 2 weeks ago by DHL!!! Rumors only??? May be not!
So what's happening in Belgium? Maybe the government is just dragging his feet before releasing the news to have time to decide which political group will be charged with the responsability of the DHL departure to Leipzig!
So what's happening in Belgium? Maybe the government is just dragging his feet before releasing the news to have time to decide which political group will be charged with the responsability of the DHL departure to Leipzig!
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tgdxb
I have noticed on quite a number of threads that you claim involvement with and have a love of the aviation industry. However in all your postings it comes with a but, or as others in previous threads have referred to as a chip. I think you would be better off lobbying for Brussels' closure and free up all those aircraft to those of us who enjoy reaping the economic benefits that an airport brings to a region. You then will have plenty of idle time through forced retirement to pay us a visit and admire the many aircraft merrily operating at other airports, and when you choose return to your quiet solitude. To think so many European issues are decided in Brussels. It makes one wonder! Finally, which was there first? You or the airport!
I have noticed on quite a number of threads that you claim involvement with and have a love of the aviation industry. However in all your postings it comes with a but, or as others in previous threads have referred to as a chip. I think you would be better off lobbying for Brussels' closure and free up all those aircraft to those of us who enjoy reaping the economic benefits that an airport brings to a region. You then will have plenty of idle time through forced retirement to pay us a visit and admire the many aircraft merrily operating at other airports, and when you choose return to your quiet solitude. To think so many European issues are decided in Brussels. It makes one wonder! Finally, which was there first? You or the airport!
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Yeah, and I'll add that I was under 25, as was the entire capital of Belgium. There's no way 20 can involve flying over more people, but I think most will agree that the best solution is not to use Zaventem: either build a new airfield to the SW of Brussels, or move the flights elsewhere. With EU being headquartered in Brussels, the only way I'd consider operating into there would be if I had a guarantee from the government not to have flight ops interfered with nor to be liable for any lawsuits. Yes, the EU will bring added revenue, but those seats are being taken by lawyers.
Anyway, DHL will probably be playing BRU off Leipzig for a while, but ultimately, it'd make more sense (and money) to move to Leipzig.
Anyway, DHL will probably be playing BRU off Leipzig for a while, but ultimately, it'd make more sense (and money) to move to Leipzig.
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runawayedge,
well, based on your statement LHR must be stupid, as well. It 'only' took them 5 years to clear the path for T5... and CDG had to pay so much compensation to neighbouring citizens for noise disturbance (although they came in late)... and FRA refused an additional rwy for ecological reasons.
This makes us quite a few thousands stupid people around Europe, especially compared with your bright mind.
I would just say, if ALL parties affected would have sit down together and think together 'out of the box' to find a solution but no, some clever people like you felt like it is sufficient to consider the critically needed airport ops to impose uncontrolled growth on to 'innocent' people like me.
Any well organised & managed business includes change mgt as part of the mission critical functions. Change mgt includes among other identifying the potential issues & risks and put in place plans to address them. Another area is resistance to change and what needs to be done to address it. Was this done in the case of BRU? Hmmmm.....
I am sorry I was even born.
well, based on your statement LHR must be stupid, as well. It 'only' took them 5 years to clear the path for T5... and CDG had to pay so much compensation to neighbouring citizens for noise disturbance (although they came in late)... and FRA refused an additional rwy for ecological reasons.
This makes us quite a few thousands stupid people around Europe, especially compared with your bright mind.
I would just say, if ALL parties affected would have sit down together and think together 'out of the box' to find a solution but no, some clever people like you felt like it is sufficient to consider the critically needed airport ops to impose uncontrolled growth on to 'innocent' people like me.
Any well organised & managed business includes change mgt as part of the mission critical functions. Change mgt includes among other identifying the potential issues & risks and put in place plans to address them. Another area is resistance to change and what needs to be done to address it. Was this done in the case of BRU? Hmmmm.....
I am sorry I was even born.
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I am suspicious of what you're motivations are and why you are posting on this forum. I think if the thread you started on RWY 20 and this were merged it would help. Your response to my previous post intrigues me as you have not referred to points made and ultimatey the question who was there first you or the airport? By the way who mentioned 'stupid' I certainly did not!
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runawayedge,
I do not understand what makes you suspicious but would be more than willing to clarify misunderstandings.
You are right, both postings should have been merged. The fact is, I started the other one before seeing this one.
The point is not about who was here first. The point is conditions changed dramatically in a way that could not be forecasted - not even suspected - without any consideration for the impact & consequences. And I can guarantee you, I am not an isolated case. Not even internationally.
I do not understand what makes you suspicious but would be more than willing to clarify misunderstandings.
You are right, both postings should have been merged. The fact is, I started the other one before seeing this one.
The point is not about who was here first. The point is conditions changed dramatically in a way that could not be forecasted - not even suspected - without any consideration for the impact & consequences. And I can guarantee you, I am not an isolated case. Not even internationally.
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looks like those who disagreed with the noise have won-BBC reporting DHL has announced it is intending to put its new hub elsewhere, Leipsig/Vatry mentioned
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Sorry - too late all: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3762378.stm
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The human ear would not notice the accumulative noise differential between the MD11 and the B777. I could understand BRU’s position if DHL operated classic B747’s, however this is not the case. The capital acquisition costs of 5 B777’s would be approx US$1 billion. Should DHL be expected to pay this money to satisfy the airports requests, or are the locals willing to have their taxes increased in order to allow the government to buy the aircraft for DHL.
I remember that BRU invested a lot of money into the airport infrastructure to attract DHL as they wanted the jobs. Now if looks as if they will be extremely happy to lose them.
Mutt.
I remember that BRU invested a lot of money into the airport infrastructure to attract DHL as they wanted the jobs. Now if looks as if they will be extremely happy to lose them.
Mutt.
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you are right, this sort of collective failure happens when
1) incompetent politicians mess up things
2) international corporations dictate their will to states
3) 'stupid, unreasonable, anti-aviation etc. etc...' - according to some postings - people like me resist uncontrolled growth.
If people would ever learn the lessons...
1) incompetent politicians mess up things
2) international corporations dictate their will to states
3) 'stupid, unreasonable, anti-aviation etc. etc...' - according to some postings - people like me resist uncontrolled growth.
If people would ever learn the lessons...
Moon Walker
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tgdxb,
Now it's waiting till some people start protesting against your "aviation related job" then we can close BRU completely and everybody can sleep well and collect unemployment benefits.
Neil
Now it's waiting till some people start protesting against your "aviation related job" then we can close BRU completely and everybody can sleep well and collect unemployment benefits.
Neil
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Neil Armstrong,
I understand your disappointment but pls read my previous posting. It has been all extremely poorly and unprofessionally managed by... all... parties. This is a collective failure, although I personally welcome it.
So why are you surprised?
I understand your disappointment but pls read my previous posting. It has been all extremely poorly and unprofessionally managed by... all... parties. This is a collective failure, although I personally welcome it.
So why are you surprised?
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"international corporations dictating their will to states"
mmmmm thought govt's were there to serve the people who elect them....appears a corporation is expressing it's will to grow and expand..and preferably in BRU but will go elsewhere if necessary...should DHL suffer and not expand because of environmental concerns at EBBR?...maybe expand elsewhere....why not....they could bury the whole airport then you folks could take a train to CDG or Schipol when u want to travel....need more trains of course...and more nuke plants to power them...something else for you to whine about huh?
mmmmm thought govt's were there to serve the people who elect them....appears a corporation is expressing it's will to grow and expand..and preferably in BRU but will go elsewhere if necessary...should DHL suffer and not expand because of environmental concerns at EBBR?...maybe expand elsewhere....why not....they could bury the whole airport then you folks could take a train to CDG or Schipol when u want to travel....need more trains of course...and more nuke plants to power them...something else for you to whine about huh?
Still Trampin' the Ramp
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2) international corporations dictate their will to states
'International Corporation' says to Government "We'll create more jobs but we need certain guarantees"
Govenment says "We can't give you those guarantees, we can only offer something a lot less"
'Intl. Corp.' then says "In that case we'll take our jobs elsewhere"
That is the same as you buying something from a shop to do a specific task, asking the salesman for a guarantee that it will do the job & being told it will only do half the job. Would you buy it????
It's actually call ed commercial sense, NOT dictating your will!
I'll shut up now before I really loose it
RT
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I look at this whole scenario and wonder why would you risk all those jobs in a Europe that is struggling to pay all of its social bills. Airports feed an enormous amount of people and yet nobody realises that.
The Germans must be smiling now......
The Germans must be smiling now......