Doncaster/Finningley (Merged)
Runway useage
The runway use should come out at around 70% Rwy20 and 30% 02. Can't see how 02 would be used primarily for departures whilst 20 would be used for landing. In the busier periods departing traffic would be launching directly into opposing landing traffic!. Also this tail wind departure preference (02) would require longer take off run, simplistically more power required, with corresponding lower altitudes on climb, and hence more noise, which doesnt make a lot of sense.
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It makes perfect sense. To the north of the field there are a dozen houses if that for around 6-7 miles, allowing any aircraft to climb suffieciently to reduce the noise impact. To the south is the town of Bawtry ... hence the preference for 02 departures. It is quite common for an airport to use a runway even with a small tailwind, even LCY use approached over the city with a tailwind below around 5 knots!
Of course, if it is busy both go the same way ... i would have thought was to to be taken as read ....
The threshold displacement. This means, that rather than the threshold (the piano keys if you like) being at the end of the runway as you would expect, they will be moved further along the runway ... which is when you get the arrows at the start, then the piano keys etc. This does not effect take off as you start the take off roll at the start of the concrete, but if means that the landing zone is moved down the runway, so that as the aircraft come over the high ground they are higher and hence the ground is no longer considered to be an obstacle ... hope this makes sense.
Any more for any more?
Of course, if it is busy both go the same way ... i would have thought was to to be taken as read ....
The threshold displacement. This means, that rather than the threshold (the piano keys if you like) being at the end of the runway as you would expect, they will be moved further along the runway ... which is when you get the arrows at the start, then the piano keys etc. This does not effect take off as you start the take off roll at the start of the concrete, but if means that the landing zone is moved down the runway, so that as the aircraft come over the high ground they are higher and hence the ground is no longer considered to be an obstacle ... hope this makes sense.
Any more for any more?
G22 I'm quite familiar with the area, the outlaws are from there! Any way with the runway useage going to be 70/30 westerly/easterly to emphasise to the community so early on there will be a bias towards easterly departures is a poor move. They will take that as read, and will not understand the operational implications which will in due course alter that. Any likely change to undo this bias would be vehemently contested, make sure that bias isnt in any planning agreement or future development will come at a heavy price!. You are quite right regarding take off with tail wind component, however that is usually only a few knots, again something the public will not understand, and a few knots/wet runway may make all the difference for a departure even with the length of runway available.
A far better option will be an alter course off 20 at about 500ft by 20 degrees or so to take aircraft between Bawtry and Tickhill. It wont be perfect but operationally in the long term it will be preferable. By having this bias it also means south bound operators are potentially adding a significant track mileage to the departure route. That will be an interesting pitch to lo-cost airlines for example!
Any more for any more? Hope the above is of some use, and the above is correct, I can assure you I know!
A far better option will be an alter course off 20 at about 500ft by 20 degrees or so to take aircraft between Bawtry and Tickhill. It wont be perfect but operationally in the long term it will be preferable. By having this bias it also means south bound operators are potentially adding a significant track mileage to the departure route. That will be an interesting pitch to lo-cost airlines for example!
Any more for any more? Hope the above is of some use, and the above is correct, I can assure you I know!
but does it mean the runway will in fact be shortened? and will dsa have its own radar head?
The runway is in effect shorter for landings than takeoffs. landing you can not use the part before the piano keys, however for take off you can frequently start the take off roll on the section, (before the piano keys), not used for landing on. It does depend on the individual runway and its particular restrictions. Dunno about the radar feed though.
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Ha ha, it is a preferred operational requirmenet, but nothing is stipulated that that is how it will be (as far as I am aware). Ultimately it will be wind dependant but the published op procedures state what I said above.
Minor point but the runway is north / south not east / west (sorry, just like to be precise from time to time). The departure routes do turn either east west depending to avoid bawtry anyway ... this has already been thought of!
I'm not operationally minded, and it's not my forte, but i'm into all that ... and I do have an idead of the thought processes involved and seen all the bits and pieces!
Going back to the displacement issue, the runway is not shorter, and it is quite common for runways to have a displaced threshold, runway 09 at LPL is displaced by around 150' as is 24R and 24L at MAN.
GJK
Minor point but the runway is north / south not east / west (sorry, just like to be precise from time to time). The departure routes do turn either east west depending to avoid bawtry anyway ... this has already been thought of!
I'm not operationally minded, and it's not my forte, but i'm into all that ... and I do have an idead of the thought processes involved and seen all the bits and pieces!
Going back to the displacement issue, the runway is not shorter, and it is quite common for runways to have a displaced threshold, runway 09 at LPL is displaced by around 150' as is 24R and 24L at MAN.
GJK
'Minor point but the runway is north / south not east / west (sorry, just like to be precise from time to time)'. Ha ha, well, with respect 02/20 is not north-south to be precise either!, is it?. Any way would be interested to know where the 'published' procedures are, perhaps as they are 'published' you would be kind enough to advise where?, I'd be interested to see them.
From your good self, 'the runway is not shorter'. Also from yourself, 'This does not effect take off as you start the take off roll at the start of the concrete, but if means that the landing zone is moved down the runway'. (Note you may not land on the runway in front of the piano keys, in normal circumstances). Therefore with a displaced landing threshold as you describe above, the runway is shorter for landing than it is for take off, correct?. Example for lez and to illustrate the above, taking off and landing in the same direction, same piece of tarmac:
total runway length 2000m
displaced landing threshold by 500m
landing runway available 1500m
take off runway available 2000m
do you concur gareth?
From your good self, 'the runway is not shorter'. Also from yourself, 'This does not effect take off as you start the take off roll at the start of the concrete, but if means that the landing zone is moved down the runway'. (Note you may not land on the runway in front of the piano keys, in normal circumstances). Therefore with a displaced landing threshold as you describe above, the runway is shorter for landing than it is for take off, correct?. Example for lez and to illustrate the above, taking off and landing in the same direction, same piece of tarmac:
total runway length 2000m
displaced landing threshold by 500m
landing runway available 1500m
take off runway available 2000m
do you concur gareth?
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You get out of bed the wrong side?
No the runway is not north / south, but it is more north south than east west, but if you want to be funny about it, it's north north east / south south west. O, and for the sake of clarity, I was being flippant in my comment regarding being precise ... hence the from time to time comment (which by nature is not precise .... ) .........
I had taken the earlier comment of the runway being shorter to read that the section prior to the displacement was not to be used, which is not the case, but the LDA is of course less than the ASDA. Otherwise, why displace the threshold?
This is fun isn't it, not argued with any one on here before .... o joy, a little light in an otherwise boring day (although ABBA is on later ..... )
No the runway is not north / south, but it is more north south than east west, but if you want to be funny about it, it's north north east / south south west. O, and for the sake of clarity, I was being flippant in my comment regarding being precise ... hence the from time to time comment (which by nature is not precise .... ) .........
I had taken the earlier comment of the runway being shorter to read that the section prior to the displacement was not to be used, which is not the case, but the LDA is of course less than the ASDA. Otherwise, why displace the threshold?
This is fun isn't it, not argued with any one on here before .... o joy, a little light in an otherwise boring day (although ABBA is on later ..... )
No I didn't, perhaps both you and I should use a few 
's in our postings to assist!. I was hoping to clarify to lez in laymans (no ofence intended lez), terms what the implications of runway length/displacement might mean, in answer to his 'does it mean the runway will in fact be shortened?' question.
I would genuinely be interested in knowing where the published procedures you mention are, and of course, far more importantly, the blonde or the brunette one?
's in our postings to assist!. I was hoping to clarify to lez in laymans (no ofence intended lez), terms what the implications of runway length/displacement might mean, in answer to his 'does it mean the runway will in fact be shortened?' question.I would genuinely be interested in knowing where the published procedures you mention are, and of course, far more importantly, the blonde or the brunette one?
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The airfield is not licensed and will not be until next year, so until then the procedures remain un published, but they are published in the sense that that is what is going into the airport manual!
Always happy to use pictures (I can't read you see) not quite mastered the art of those yet though!
Sorry, keep an eye on the UK AIP and they will appear then at the appropriate time!
GJK22
Always happy to use pictures (I can't read you see) not quite mastered the art of those yet though!
Sorry, keep an eye on the UK AIP and they will appear then at the appropriate time!
GJK22
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For an airport in class G airspace, like DSA will be, there can be no 'published procedures' for departures surely? All the low level military activity (lots of it) and civvies from the nearby GA fields (Gamston, Netherthorpe, Sandtoft, Sherburn etc.) skirting the edge of the ATZ will require every departure to be considered seperately.
As I understand it, DSA will not have a radar head on the airfield. I believe they are using Waddingtons, which is 20 miles away. Whether this is a recipe for future joy and happiness remains to be seen.
As I understand it, DSA will not have a radar head on the airfield. I believe they are using Waddingtons, which is 20 miles away. Whether this is a recipe for future joy and happiness remains to be seen.
Last edited by Nice Jam; 22nd Sep 2004 at 01:24.
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Why should they have their own radar head?
Lots of airports use feeds from existing installations. Why throw money around for no reason? I seem to remember EMA not having their own until recently, in fact they may not have their own now?? Radar will be staffed via LPL, with a feed from the radar ... in exactly the same way as Swanick work before you start!
It is important to note that Aviation is a business, and business in here to make money, unless of course you are state supported!
GJK22
Lots of airports use feeds from existing installations. Why throw money around for no reason? I seem to remember EMA not having their own until recently, in fact they may not have their own now?? Radar will be staffed via LPL, with a feed from the radar ... in exactly the same way as Swanick work before you start!
It is important to note that Aviation is a business, and business in here to make money, unless of course you are state supported!
GJK22
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NEMA has its own primary head-secondary is piped from claxby, I would have thought that using the primary from 20 miles away, with all the attendant loses in cover is going to be very fraught-especially in uncontrolled airspace in area of intense mil activity-something that SRG will be reluctant to approve I should think
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Fully laden Vulcans operated there no problem so I doubt PCN will be an issue. I've also seen a C5A Galaxy there mind you they spread the weight on many wheels so they can operate from unprepared strips. I believe ther was however, a problem with mining subsidence. A freind tells me they were having problems with opening the hangar doors due to this when the RAF were there.
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Why should they have their own radar head?
(*this is sarcasm)
in exactly the same way as Swanick work before you start!
Anyone know where the DSA secondary feed is from, out of interest? The Scampton head?
Hmm.... if they have to co-ordinate each departure that'll make a runway bias promise difficult to keep, with the potential of unnecessary delays too. Just a thought but the topography around there might assist with a remote head for primary at Waddo, its all relatively level, so terrain masking may be limited, but I'm thinking along the same lines as NJ.
niknak
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This has been said before, so sorry if I step on anyones toes.
Althought the primary radar signal is being derived from Waddington, it is utilising a new gismo, (devleoped by Flight refuelling I think), that is CAA approved, and allows primary and SSR radar coverage down to 150ft.
This will give nearly as good as coverage as you would get from having your own radar head on the airfield for a lot less expense.
It's just a question of deciding if the blip not equipped with SSR crossing the centreline 2miles and 1 ft, , from the airport may, or may not, be a real aeroplane - a judgement call that we all have to do on a day to day basis.
Althought the primary radar signal is being derived from Waddington, it is utilising a new gismo, (devleoped by Flight refuelling I think), that is CAA approved, and allows primary and SSR radar coverage down to 150ft.
This will give nearly as good as coverage as you would get from having your own radar head on the airfield for a lot less expense.
It's just a question of deciding if the blip not equipped with SSR crossing the centreline 2miles and 1 ft, , from the airport may, or may not, be a real aeroplane - a judgement call that we all have to do on a day to day basis.
Last edited by niknak; 24th Sep 2004 at 12:03.
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Threshold at 02 end will be displaced due to rising ground to the west of the field (as I understand?!)
Or is it perhaps to keep the aircraft higher over Bawtry on the approach?
- Michael