LEEDS
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Leeds Expansion 2
The PPruNe 'Airports and Airlines' seems to hoast rather a lot of threads about LBA. I have decided to start a new 'Leeds Expansion' thread, the old Leeds Expansion thread is out of date and there does appear to be enough happening at LBA to support another thread. Hopefully this can give the other PPRuNers a little more space!
Leeds Bradford International Airport (LBA) is on course to handling 2.3 million passengers this year. The airport has plans to build a new rail spur to the airport, a new link road from the Leeds Outer Ring Road. Also to extend the long stay carpark and to build a new business park.
Although the airport has not announced its 30 year strategic plan, other developments are thought to include:-
*A new 300m runway extention making the runway 2550m in length
*A new full length parallel taxiway
*A apron extension with capacity rising from 18 stands to around 26-30 aircraft .
*A new multistory carpark
*extended or new terminal facilities.
Yorkshire passengers are on the verge of having a major boost to air travel with the developments at Leeds Bradford International (and at Doncaster Shefield), the most under exploited area in the country. The opportunities for both airports are enormous.
To avoid the "them'n'us" banter please keep this thread based on LBA. DSA/NEMA/MAN all have their own threads.
Leeds Bradford International Airport (LBA) is on course to handling 2.3 million passengers this year. The airport has plans to build a new rail spur to the airport, a new link road from the Leeds Outer Ring Road. Also to extend the long stay carpark and to build a new business park.
Although the airport has not announced its 30 year strategic plan, other developments are thought to include:-
*A new 300m runway extention making the runway 2550m in length
*A new full length parallel taxiway
*A apron extension with capacity rising from 18 stands to around 26-30 aircraft .
*A new multistory carpark
*extended or new terminal facilities.
Yorkshire passengers are on the verge of having a major boost to air travel with the developments at Leeds Bradford International (and at Doncaster Shefield), the most under exploited area in the country. The opportunities for both airports are enormous.
To avoid the "them'n'us" banter please keep this thread based on LBA. DSA/NEMA/MAN all have their own threads.
Last edited by LBAir; 18th Aug 2004 at 17:27.
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Those all seem like reasonable and realistic targets to me!
LBA never seems to have a fast moving approach to its development and in the modern industry this is something it needs to sustain its position in the Yorkshire area.
LBA never seems to have a fast moving approach to its development and in the modern industry this is something it needs to sustain its position in the Yorkshire area.
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LBAir
I think it is a great idea to have a thread dedicated to any items in regard to any future expansion at Leeds.There are far to many people out that who's sole aim in life is to rubbish the airport.To many people with negative attitudes who don't want the airport to succeed.The runways to short,its to high up,its always foggy or it suffers from crosswinds.How we've managed
to attract nearly 2.3 million passengers a year beats me.
The biggest problem seems to me that we do not help our selves.
We do not market the airport strongly enough.That can be seen from the postings on another thread.Its time to shout louder that
we are Yorkshires No1 airport and stop holiday makers and business travellers having to go else where to fly to destinations
that should be flown from LBA.
The proposed developements will make a hell of a difference if some or all of them actually happen.The big problem is where the
money is coming from.Whether it is provided by the goverment,
the local councils or private finance the money needs to be found as soon as possible to get on with the expansion of the LBA.
The sooner it is done then as one PPruner called us we will no longer be a tinpot airport.
ILS32
I think it is a great idea to have a thread dedicated to any items in regard to any future expansion at Leeds.There are far to many people out that who's sole aim in life is to rubbish the airport.To many people with negative attitudes who don't want the airport to succeed.The runways to short,its to high up,its always foggy or it suffers from crosswinds.How we've managed
to attract nearly 2.3 million passengers a year beats me.
The biggest problem seems to me that we do not help our selves.
We do not market the airport strongly enough.That can be seen from the postings on another thread.Its time to shout louder that
we are Yorkshires No1 airport and stop holiday makers and business travellers having to go else where to fly to destinations
that should be flown from LBA.
The proposed developements will make a hell of a difference if some or all of them actually happen.The big problem is where the
money is coming from.Whether it is provided by the goverment,
the local councils or private finance the money needs to be found as soon as possible to get on with the expansion of the LBA.
The sooner it is done then as one PPruner called us we will no longer be a tinpot airport.
ILS32
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ILS32 Where's the money coming from?
I believe the government changed the borrowing rules for authority owned airports some years ago. I understand the rules now stipulate that as long as the airports are operated as full Limited companies, council owned airports could borrow money like any other business.
LBA expansion has untill now largely been done through profits of the airport. Dividend payments to the council authorities have all gone back into the airport business to pay for better facilities and infrastructure.
I am convinced that the time is right now, for the LBA (Ltd) company to borrow to facilitate larger prodjects. Any large scale prodject would undoubtedly add to the value of the airport should the councils wish to sell the company.
LBA expansion has untill now largely been done through profits of the airport. Dividend payments to the council authorities have all gone back into the airport business to pay for better facilities and infrastructure.
I am convinced that the time is right now, for the LBA (Ltd) company to borrow to facilitate larger prodjects. Any large scale prodject would undoubtedly add to the value of the airport should the councils wish to sell the company.
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Saturday charters
Tomorrow will see the move of almost all Leeds' charter traffic to its recently opened check-in hall B. A total of 9 holiday flights will be checked in tomorrow through B hall.
It would appear that the airport authority is planning to move all charter traffic to the new B hall for the winter season. The new B hall has a large open area far better suited to handle larger flights and it is surtain to facilitate greater throughput of passengers.
The airport has also commenced the referbishment of the former BMI lounge. The area will have a much lighter, brighter atmostphere.
from YORKSHIRE the place to be is the city of Leeds.
It would appear that the airport authority is planning to move all charter traffic to the new B hall for the winter season. The new B hall has a large open area far better suited to handle larger flights and it is surtain to facilitate greater throughput of passengers.
The airport has also commenced the referbishment of the former BMI lounge. The area will have a much lighter, brighter atmostphere.
from YORKSHIRE
the place to be is the city of Leeds.
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LBA's new check-in
LBA's new check-in makes a hell of a difference. On Saterday when most of the holiday flights went through 'Check-in Hall B' everything looked so much smoother. No stampead through the revolving doors. No queing outside to get in the terminal.
Lets hope the airport move quickly now to get the other things sorted.
Flying without wings is not my Forte
Lets hope the airport move quickly now to get the other things sorted.
Flying without wings is not my Forte
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Announced earlier in the week that an extra 495 long stay car parking spaces are to be built in readiness for passenger growth in 05.
The press report suggestd the extension would be in the land between the apron embankment (stand 18) and the office building on Scotland Lane.
How this fits in with talk of 5 more aircraft parking stands at the East End, I'm not sure?
682
The press report suggestd the extension would be in the land between the apron embankment (stand 18) and the office building on Scotland Lane.
How this fits in with talk of 5 more aircraft parking stands at the East End, I'm not sure?
682
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I am alone in thinking this piecemeal (forgive me if I spelt this wrongly) to development is making what was once an attractive airport look like a lego kit.
When I first moved to LBA 14 years ago the sweep of the Terminal building was very attractive, but the additions make it just look odd. As a passenger unless you know it I can imagine the terminal is now quite confusing. In particular the security area seems always to be a bottle neck when I fly.
Living in Halifax I must admint I often find it easier and more convenient to use Manchester. Whilst the distance is greater the road network means there little difference time wise.
Whilst I am on a roll, I also have to admint whilst Jet2 offer some good prices, of late whenever I have wanted to book they have been expensive to both Paris and Prague.
When I first moved to LBA 14 years ago the sweep of the Terminal building was very attractive, but the additions make it just look odd. As a passenger unless you know it I can imagine the terminal is now quite confusing. In particular the security area seems always to be a bottle neck when I fly.
Living in Halifax I must admint I often find it easier and more convenient to use Manchester. Whilst the distance is greater the road network means there little difference time wise.
Whilst I am on a roll, I also have to admint whilst Jet2 offer some good prices, of late whenever I have wanted to book they have been expensive to both Paris and Prague.
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Privatisation?
One or two posts over various threads have touched on this point but this seems like the best place to set the ball rolling for this.
Is it time to “privatise” LBA?
I put privatise in inverted commas as several UK airports have been transferred to private management over the last few years through a variety of mechanisms. LTN is managed by a private consortium for 30 years but remains owned by the local borough, NCL was part sold off and EMA sold completely.
What do the 5 current owners, the councils of West Yorkshire, receive for their ownership? The latest figure I heard was an annual return of 200k pounds to be shared between them. For Bradford this would mean 80k. Contrast this to the annual budget for Bradford Council of than 1,000 million pounds, so the return from LBA is insignificant.
At the risk of broadening this thread beyond LBA, what has the experience of other airports been following privatisation? I would be interesting to hear first hand about both negative and positive aspects. We are all too familiar with the “drive costs down” aspect but have the new management actually improved the airport infrastructure, attracted new services, improved airport access etc. Which privatisation route is the best? If any? How much financial return might be expected?
PTH
Is it time to “privatise” LBA?
I put privatise in inverted commas as several UK airports have been transferred to private management over the last few years through a variety of mechanisms. LTN is managed by a private consortium for 30 years but remains owned by the local borough, NCL was part sold off and EMA sold completely.
What do the 5 current owners, the councils of West Yorkshire, receive for their ownership? The latest figure I heard was an annual return of 200k pounds to be shared between them. For Bradford this would mean 80k. Contrast this to the annual budget for Bradford Council of than 1,000 million pounds, so the return from LBA is insignificant.
At the risk of broadening this thread beyond LBA, what has the experience of other airports been following privatisation? I would be interesting to hear first hand about both negative and positive aspects. We are all too familiar with the “drive costs down” aspect but have the new management actually improved the airport infrastructure, attracted new services, improved airport access etc. Which privatisation route is the best? If any? How much financial return might be expected?
PTH
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wawkrk – Why would Councilors votes themselves out of being LBA non-executive directors?
Answer – to stop themselves being voted off the Council by the electorate!
With Councils under strong pressure to limit rises in Council tax, both by the national Government and because of its increasing public unpopularity, they have to be open to “alternate revenue streams” (as it's termed on the Leeds Council website). If Council Tax needs to rise more than whatever limit the government hints will be “too much” while having a large asset such as LBA then more Councilors will start to link the dots.
As I pointed out before Leeds and Bradford both have Con/Lib leadership so there is much less of an ideological block than with the previous Lab administrations.
I’d say it’s more likely now than last year, but I’m still not sure just how probable that is????
If the cheque is big enough they'll bite.
PTH
Has anyone tried selling an airport on Ebay before?
Answer – to stop themselves being voted off the Council by the electorate!
With Councils under strong pressure to limit rises in Council tax, both by the national Government and because of its increasing public unpopularity, they have to be open to “alternate revenue streams” (as it's termed on the Leeds Council website). If Council Tax needs to rise more than whatever limit the government hints will be “too much” while having a large asset such as LBA then more Councilors will start to link the dots.
As I pointed out before Leeds and Bradford both have Con/Lib leadership so there is much less of an ideological block than with the previous Lab administrations.
I’d say it’s more likely now than last year, but I’m still not sure just how probable that is????
If the cheque is big enough they'll bite.
PTH
Has anyone tried selling an airport on Ebay before?
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Leeds City Council had a very strange debate on this in the earlier part of the year. A motion was proposed by the leader of the (then) opposition to commission a report to investigate the pros and cons of selling some/all of the Council's stake in the airport. Note, it wasn't a yes/no vote on whether to sell the airport, it was just a vote on whether to prepare a feasibility study to then allow a more meaningful debate on the matter. The (then) ruling Labour group used their majority to defeat the proposal. I found it strange for 2 main reasons:
- the airport is jointly owned by the 5 local authorities in the area. Any debate such as this must surely be done at a regional level, not just from within Leeds.
- Why did the ruling Labour Group vote against a feasibility study? Voting against privatisation is fine if that vote has been taken with all of the facts in front of you, but effectively voting against something to give you those facts just seems a dereliction of duty. It's the local council equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and shouting 'la la la la' in order to try and avoid listening to something!
I don't know whether privatisation, either full or part, would be beneficial or not. It has certainly benefited a number of regional airports that are of a similar size to LBA and there remain very few UK airports under complete local authority control. The transfer of equity from public to private has also been done for considerable sums of money. Those two facts alone and the prospect of a 'win win' for the area would have me chomping at the bit to find out more. Clearly more than half of the city councillors back in March decided they didn't. As I say, strange.
As PTH says, the council changes in June means the balance of power has changed. Cllr. Carter who proposed the motion back in March is now leader of the council and barring any nonsense which means a motion cannot be re-proposed, I hope he'll try again.
682
- the airport is jointly owned by the 5 local authorities in the area. Any debate such as this must surely be done at a regional level, not just from within Leeds.
- Why did the ruling Labour Group vote against a feasibility study? Voting against privatisation is fine if that vote has been taken with all of the facts in front of you, but effectively voting against something to give you those facts just seems a dereliction of duty. It's the local council equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and shouting 'la la la la' in order to try and avoid listening to something!
I don't know whether privatisation, either full or part, would be beneficial or not. It has certainly benefited a number of regional airports that are of a similar size to LBA and there remain very few UK airports under complete local authority control. The transfer of equity from public to private has also been done for considerable sums of money. Those two facts alone and the prospect of a 'win win' for the area would have me chomping at the bit to find out more. Clearly more than half of the city councillors back in March decided they didn't. As I say, strange.
As PTH says, the council changes in June means the balance of power has changed. Cllr. Carter who proposed the motion back in March is now leader of the council and barring any nonsense which means a motion cannot be re-proposed, I hope he'll try again.
682
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I don't know whether privatisation, either full or part, would be beneficial or not. It has certainly benefited a number of regional airports that are of a similar size to LBA........
It was wholly owned by the Bristol City Council, a body then whose ruling members were opposed to the sale of what they regarded as public assets.
BRS had the good fortune to have as its operational head at that time a man called Les Wilson. He was a dynamic individual who lived and breathed his airport. I did not know him personally but I am sure he was frustrated at the attitude of his employers as he sought to drive BRS into becoming a significant regional facility. Tragically, he was killed in a car accident in the mid 90s and never lived to see the subsequent expansion.
The city council, probably reluctantly, came to realise that the airport would stagnate without major cash injections, something that was beyond their ability to provide. In December 1997 they sold a controlling interest (51%) to First Group plc and in January 2001 sold their remaining interest when the airport was acquired by the Australian Mcquarie Bank and Cintra, part of the Spanish Ferrovia Group, who are still the owners.
Without private money the new terminal (opened in 2000) could not have been built, neither would the diversion of the A 38 (to allow the installation of Cat III landing) nor the new control tower have occurred. Other improvements have been and are still being made to the airport.
Since 1997 (the year First Group took control) the airport's annual pax figures have gone from about 1.75 million to an expected 4.5 million this year
A word of warning though to those who think the sale of LBA would automatically reduce council taxes. BRS was sold for £198 million in 2001 and the city council received a large chunk of this. However, they were not allowed to use the money to defray everyday council expenses. Part of the money went to central government and the remainder went mainly to capital projects or into the council's reserves. Having said this, by dint of financial dexterity following receipt of the airport dosh, Bristol City Council did manage to limit council tax rises for a year or two.
I have never believed that local authorities should own and run airports. The directors of the companies usually formed by the councils to run airports often have no business experience whatever and they are the people who are supposed to take the strategic decisions. Furthermore, local authorities are restricted in the way they can raise the large amounts of money required to take airports forward.
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Just been looking at the outdated thread.
What I cannot understand is, why have the airport company stopped the staff reading pprune? surely they must realise that the staff can read it at home. Is it because all the postings showed a flaw in the management and they did not want the staff to read about their incompetence. Is it because the management are hiding their incompetence from the councils.
Surely pprune is beneficial to all the airport employees and employers as has been shown regarding the website update.
I believe it is both. When the MD is only part time and the Director of Operations is on long term sick, who is running the airport? Obviously no one qualified to do so.
Why is the Airport Board not reacting to this and trying to find out a cure to keep the public happy. The airport should be a public service company as a priority and non profit making. At the moment all profits made, I believe, are put back into the company. However money is being made by not updating the present needs. Such as ongoing repairs, staff shortages and budgeting sufficeintly for future expansion.
Surely, common business sense says that if you are not making enough money then go out and get more business, easy.
I hope the efforts of BMIFOX are rewarded and LBA expands further.
Without this forum then public interests would not be heard, the airport management would not have realised how badly they are running a business which should be run by aviation professionals, rather than unprofessional managers. If the efforts by BMIFOX are looked at then maybe privatisation may be considered by the councils. What the airport need is dynamic professional directors and managers to push the place 20 years ahead of what it is now.
To go back to a previous comment regarding something on the lines that LBA is still being run as a parochial airport. What will LHR do when terminal 5 opens, (compared to b check-in), face painting-no, punch and judy-no, balloons-no. Yes LBA is still being run like a new car dealership opening.
Anyway no more ranting and have said my piece for now, will check further whilst away in hotter places.
ILS 119.5
What I cannot understand is, why have the airport company stopped the staff reading pprune? surely they must realise that the staff can read it at home. Is it because all the postings showed a flaw in the management and they did not want the staff to read about their incompetence. Is it because the management are hiding their incompetence from the councils.
Surely pprune is beneficial to all the airport employees and employers as has been shown regarding the website update.
I believe it is both. When the MD is only part time and the Director of Operations is on long term sick, who is running the airport? Obviously no one qualified to do so.
Why is the Airport Board not reacting to this and trying to find out a cure to keep the public happy. The airport should be a public service company as a priority and non profit making. At the moment all profits made, I believe, are put back into the company. However money is being made by not updating the present needs. Such as ongoing repairs, staff shortages and budgeting sufficeintly for future expansion.
Surely, common business sense says that if you are not making enough money then go out and get more business, easy.
I hope the efforts of BMIFOX are rewarded and LBA expands further.
Without this forum then public interests would not be heard, the airport management would not have realised how badly they are running a business which should be run by aviation professionals, rather than unprofessional managers. If the efforts by BMIFOX are looked at then maybe privatisation may be considered by the councils. What the airport need is dynamic professional directors and managers to push the place 20 years ahead of what it is now.
To go back to a previous comment regarding something on the lines that LBA is still being run as a parochial airport. What will LHR do when terminal 5 opens, (compared to b check-in), face painting-no, punch and judy-no, balloons-no. Yes LBA is still being run like a new car dealership opening.
Anyway no more ranting and have said my piece for now, will check further whilst away in hotter places.
ILS 119.5
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I dont know if anybody noticed (BMIFOX ?), but someone from LBA made a comment to the news teletext service which I noticed today about it being LBA's busiest day of the year.
So busy in fact, that they had put extra flights to spain on - this absolute clap-trap, there have been no extra flights that I have noticed.
Perhaps this is a new ploy by that fantastic marketing departments to bull-up the airport.
All opinions on here are what I have been thinking for ages, which is why I have decided to join this forum to add my support. LBA needs to be a proper airport and professionally run !
Regards
So busy in fact, that they had put extra flights to spain on - this absolute clap-trap, there have been no extra flights that I have noticed.
Perhaps this is a new ploy by that fantastic marketing departments to bull-up the airport.
All opinions on here are what I have been thinking for ages, which is why I have decided to join this forum to add my support. LBA needs to be a proper airport and professionally run !
Regards