LEEDS
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Runway 14 ILS and Jet2.com
INKJET....... some interesting things you mentioned in your last post. Do you know if the touchdown markers are going to be moved in the process of upgrading the ILS?
Jet2.com.....looks likely that the Budapest service will be coming to LBA along with the Valencia services? I understand Channex have purchased at least 2 Boeing 757-200 aircraft to be used by Jet2, can you confirm this?
I know myself that Jet2 wish to expand much more from LBA but can the authorities deliver?
Jet2.com.....looks likely that the Budapest service will be coming to LBA along with the Valencia services? I understand Channex have purchased at least 2 Boeing 757-200 aircraft to be used by Jet2, can you confirm this?
I know myself that Jet2 wish to expand much more from LBA but can the authorities deliver?
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Inkjet, if the glideslope has to be lowered on 14 for CAT 2 complience surely it will mean the threshold has to be moved further down the runway.This would reduce the LDA still further in order to give clearance over the chevin which has been known to set of GPWS in the past. This in my mind has to be a retrograde step unless it is coupled with adding the long talked about 300m at the start of 32 to restore the LDA on 14. Anyone out there know if this is a correct assumption?
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Dont forget we now have enhanced Gpws on most of our big birds so assuming the database in the unit is correct the Gpws knows about the chevin and no alert should be generated
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Hooded
Provide that the aircraft is configured for landing (gear down and a landing flap selected) then the GPWS input from the radalt invalid and you could land in a field without getting a terrain warning, with EGPWS you need to be landing on a runway that is in its data base, probably not Bagby!!
At present the RADALT reads about 520ft AGL at the lowest point on the approach to 14 (the highest ground at any given point) so i would guess that at say a 3.2 slope then it would give you about 450ft, no doubt someone can do the math. not a lot i agree but we often cross roads near airports at far less, it will just make it that bit easier for the folks up at the royalty to hit us with fireworks!!
I wouldn't recommend hand flying the approach in IMC but for a fully coupled approach it shouldn't be a problem.
Haven't heard about 757's for Jet2 would make sense for their cargo ops, not sure about pax's but with JET2 approach to low cost you never know? who knows it could be Cairo for £19.99 all in.
Cheers
Burt
time to take the dog for a pint
At present the RADALT reads about 520ft AGL at the lowest point on the approach to 14 (the highest ground at any given point) so i would guess that at say a 3.2 slope then it would give you about 450ft, no doubt someone can do the math. not a lot i agree but we often cross roads near airports at far less, it will just make it that bit easier for the folks up at the royalty to hit us with fireworks!!
I wouldn't recommend hand flying the approach in IMC but for a fully coupled approach it shouldn't be a problem.
Haven't heard about 757's for Jet2 would make sense for their cargo ops, not sure about pax's but with JET2 approach to low cost you never know? who knows it could be Cairo for £19.99 all in.
Cheers
Burt
time to take the dog for a pint
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This isn’t an area I know a lot about, but….
Approach plates for 14 show the altitude at 2nm out to be 1,463ft. At 2nm on 32, with the 3 degree slope, the 2nm altitude is 1,347ft - so, 116ft higher on 14. Crudely speaking, wouldn’t one expect the 2nm altitude on a 3.25 degree slope to 14 (assuming no change in the touchdown point) to be halfway between the two i.e. 1,405ft. This would effectively reduce clearance over the Chevin by 58ft (given it’s about 2nm out).
The same approach plate shows the Chevin at 926ft AMSL. So current clearance is 537ft on the 3.5 degree approach and would be 479ft on a 3.25 degree slope.
re Jet2, one scenario would be to use a larger a/c for the sun routes they currently operate 2 or 3 times daily. Currently, with 2/3 daily to AGP and 2 daily to ALC and PMI they have got about 3 aircraft tied into these. A single 757 running PMI-AGP-ALC each day might not quite match the capacity overall but would strike me as being more cost effective and potentially would tighten the yields. Get a second machine in to act as backup and to pop down to TFS and PFO every now and then and hey presto, an idea that might work. Come the winter, get the 737s back on the AGP etc and pump up the frequency on the longer-runs to warmer climes – perhaps with a LPA and ACE to compliment TFS and PFO.
682
PS – another healthy load inbound on Air S/W this morning. I must say, I’ve been very impressed with their approach to marketing and promoting the route and given they are complete unknowns in this part of the world, they really do seem to be on the ball. The contrast between them and bmi’s efforts on the LCY route is really quite noticeable.
Approach plates for 14 show the altitude at 2nm out to be 1,463ft. At 2nm on 32, with the 3 degree slope, the 2nm altitude is 1,347ft - so, 116ft higher on 14. Crudely speaking, wouldn’t one expect the 2nm altitude on a 3.25 degree slope to 14 (assuming no change in the touchdown point) to be halfway between the two i.e. 1,405ft. This would effectively reduce clearance over the Chevin by 58ft (given it’s about 2nm out).
The same approach plate shows the Chevin at 926ft AMSL. So current clearance is 537ft on the 3.5 degree approach and would be 479ft on a 3.25 degree slope.
re Jet2, one scenario would be to use a larger a/c for the sun routes they currently operate 2 or 3 times daily. Currently, with 2/3 daily to AGP and 2 daily to ALC and PMI they have got about 3 aircraft tied into these. A single 757 running PMI-AGP-ALC each day might not quite match the capacity overall but would strike me as being more cost effective and potentially would tighten the yields. Get a second machine in to act as backup and to pop down to TFS and PFO every now and then and hey presto, an idea that might work. Come the winter, get the 737s back on the AGP etc and pump up the frequency on the longer-runs to warmer climes – perhaps with a LPA and ACE to compliment TFS and PFO.
682
PS – another healthy load inbound on Air S/W this morning. I must say, I’ve been very impressed with their approach to marketing and promoting the route and given they are complete unknowns in this part of the world, they really do seem to be on the ball. The contrast between them and bmi’s efforts on the LCY route is really quite noticeable.
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Would seem to be a good stratedgy for Jet2, I think they are going to announce a few new routes for this winter and next summer, anyone know when winter 05/06 goes on sale?
Also have to agree on WOW, they seem to be making a really good go of it and are reaping the rewards at the moment, BRS-NQY must be a real money spinner, for Business pax for BRS and leisure in the summer for NQY, as well as onward connections to PLH, also good frequency at 2 a day. Lets hope the BE Exeter and Southampton flights fo as well
Also have to agree on WOW, they seem to be making a really good go of it and are reaping the rewards at the moment, BRS-NQY must be a real money spinner, for Business pax for BRS and leisure in the summer for NQY, as well as onward connections to PLH, also good frequency at 2 a day. Lets hope the BE Exeter and Southampton flights fo as well
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JET2 winter program
LBA.... The Jet2 winter program will be released over several weeks from May. This is to ensure the website is kept online throughout the busiest periods.
A new holding area for Irish passengers is to be constructed above the White Rose Food Village. This is due to start in 10-12 weeks time. This will free up space to extend the WHS store and increase the seating area of the main departure area.
A300BOY..... So a 3.2 degree glide would be no problem then which will make CAT2 quite possible?
Interesting point here refering to BMI's marketing..... Radio 2 'Sally Traffic' mentioned today on air that she is to come to Leeds Bradford tomorrow. She said BMI quoted her 400.00 return! Another mist opportunity BMI
............Interesting times ahead
PS must add excellent postings INKJET/682 AMSL.
A new holding area for Irish passengers is to be constructed above the White Rose Food Village. This is due to start in 10-12 weeks time. This will free up space to extend the WHS store and increase the seating area of the main departure area.
A300BOY..... So a 3.2 degree glide would be no problem then which will make CAT2 quite possible?
Interesting point here refering to BMI's marketing..... Radio 2 'Sally Traffic' mentioned today on air that she is to come to Leeds Bradford tomorrow. She said BMI quoted her 400.00 return! Another mist opportunity BMI
............Interesting times ahead
PS must add excellent postings INKJET/682 AMSL.
Last edited by Leodis; 12th Apr 2005 at 19:02.
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Yes I agree that Cat 2 is possible on runway 14 with recent technical advances. It was not so long ago that we were told that a glide slope on this runway was unlikely. My understanding is that the glide slope angle would have to be reduced down towards 3% as other posters have pointed out and various criteria will have to be checked and complied with probably lots of calibration flights too !
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Just to put another angle on some other things that have been said already on here, I have been talking with various business contacts I have who really arent aviation people at all, they are just customers who I know and share flights with. But there are strong rumours going around (that seem to be common knowledge) that Jet2 are going to really take off big style in the next year on a scale of like nothing we have seen yet.
Now, I usually like to campaign for more charter business at the airport but I am starting to wonder if LBA are wanting to actually distract charter business (as in todays climate this may collapse in the next few years). Perhaps they are more shrewd than we gave them credit for ? And I for one, have given some greif out about the way the airport is run, but with MAN not being the success Jet2 would have liked and knowing the potential from lba in terms of passengers (who really DO want to fly from there) then this really could become more than a rumour.
Like I said only a rumour, amongst nothing but my associates, but maybe there is something going on ?? I know for one PM is no mug !
Now, I usually like to campaign for more charter business at the airport but I am starting to wonder if LBA are wanting to actually distract charter business (as in todays climate this may collapse in the next few years). Perhaps they are more shrewd than we gave them credit for ? And I for one, have given some greif out about the way the airport is run, but with MAN not being the success Jet2 would have liked and knowing the potential from lba in terms of passengers (who really DO want to fly from there) then this really could become more than a rumour.
Like I said only a rumour, amongst nothing but my associates, but maybe there is something going on ?? I know for one PM is no mug !
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LCY Service
I am troubled by the rumour that BMI might pull the excellent (though pricy leisure-wise) LCY service.
I would advise they hang on in there as the DLR extension that will link the airport directly to Canary Wharf and the City is scheduled to open in December. In fact, it is ahead of schedule (one doesn't often say that) and may well open earlier.
I would advise they hang on in there as the DLR extension that will link the airport directly to Canary Wharf and the City is scheduled to open in December. In fact, it is ahead of schedule (one doesn't often say that) and may well open earlier.
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I am interested are the suggestions on here that Jet2 in Manchester is not a success true or is merely wishful thinking.
I have heard that Gatwick and Edinburgh are not doing well. But if you peruse the Low Fare Finder the costs for destinations the two share seem to on a par.
Surely it is in everyones interest for Jet2 to be succesful at both airports.
I have heard that Gatwick and Edinburgh are not doing well. But if you peruse the Low Fare Finder the costs for destinations the two share seem to on a par.
Surely it is in everyones interest for Jet2 to be succesful at both airports.
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I too really hope the LCY service stays, the current times are better than they used to be, but I still reckon the early morning flight could be slightly earlier, the BMI LBA service arrives about half an hour after the MAN and LPL services, I think thats where the LBA service could be, but of course, there is the issue of slots and parking at LCY.
I think we can expect good news when the Jet2 winter schedule is announced next month? Is the TFS service definite?
I think we can expect good news when the Jet2 winter schedule is announced next month? Is the TFS service definite?
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re bmi on LCY, they seem to have abandoned all hope of getting volume on the route and seem focussed on yield. Lead in prices seem to move in a fairly rigid pattern as departure date approaches, regardless of booked load and they look to be relying on the late booking market and the few biz class passengers to support it. The two sectors this Sunday evening for example are priced at £121 each way + tax, yet based on every other Sunday, they'll be lucky to have a booked load in double figures. When I priced up a day return to LCY next Tuesday for a trip down there, it came back at £263 return, and the ticket was economy, non-refundable and any changes would be £30 per change sector. I would, however, get a free newspaper!
It's not an approach that's too dissimilar to how Eastern run the SOU and passenger volumes per sector are fairly similar between LBA-SOU and LBA-LCY. It's therefore interesting to here talk of collaboration between the two as I would have thought Eastern might be better suited (I understand LBA-SOU is fairly profitable for them). Also, with Eastern likely to face a bun-fight with FlyBE on the SOU route, LCY might be a good alternative if things turn nasty. A 50 seater though would seem to only make sense if both bmi and eastern are jointly selling on the route. The J41 would make more sense for Eastern in isolation.
re pwalhx's point, it's an interesting one. Whether the MAN base is a success or not, I don't know. My gut feel is that it's not gone as well as expected - but in truth only an inner circle within Channex know the full story. Whether Leeds folk want the MAN operation to be successful depends on your point of view. A successful MAN operation could boost profits to fund purchases of new aircraft, develop more routes and lend more robustness to the financial position overall. On the otherhand, the relative success of MAN to LBA is probably the greatest determinant of where Channex will choose to grow the business in the short-term. Basically, the more successful one airport is, the greater its chance of attracting new investment and route development. In this context, the next set of route announcements will make for interesting reading, I'm sure.
RobT - the charter business is a funny one at the moment. Nationally, I think the market for packaged tours is stagnant at best, but there's obviously a shift from the Spanish routes onto longer-haul services and other areas where the low-cost seat only brigade can't easily penetrate. Whether LBA gets in on this act I think will depend on whether the tour operators feel that as part of their defence against the low-cost carriers, they have to start serving more convenient local airports as opposed to centralising everything in MAN. In a recent TV programme, the TUI people were saying how they needed to freshen up their offering and make it "relevant" to what people were looking for. They didn't elaborate on whether flying almost every one in the North out MAN at all hours of the day or night and charging them an ambiguous "flight supplement" for the privilege would still be relevant or not. Time will tell I suppose.
682
It's not an approach that's too dissimilar to how Eastern run the SOU and passenger volumes per sector are fairly similar between LBA-SOU and LBA-LCY. It's therefore interesting to here talk of collaboration between the two as I would have thought Eastern might be better suited (I understand LBA-SOU is fairly profitable for them). Also, with Eastern likely to face a bun-fight with FlyBE on the SOU route, LCY might be a good alternative if things turn nasty. A 50 seater though would seem to only make sense if both bmi and eastern are jointly selling on the route. The J41 would make more sense for Eastern in isolation.
re pwalhx's point, it's an interesting one. Whether the MAN base is a success or not, I don't know. My gut feel is that it's not gone as well as expected - but in truth only an inner circle within Channex know the full story. Whether Leeds folk want the MAN operation to be successful depends on your point of view. A successful MAN operation could boost profits to fund purchases of new aircraft, develop more routes and lend more robustness to the financial position overall. On the otherhand, the relative success of MAN to LBA is probably the greatest determinant of where Channex will choose to grow the business in the short-term. Basically, the more successful one airport is, the greater its chance of attracting new investment and route development. In this context, the next set of route announcements will make for interesting reading, I'm sure.
RobT - the charter business is a funny one at the moment. Nationally, I think the market for packaged tours is stagnant at best, but there's obviously a shift from the Spanish routes onto longer-haul services and other areas where the low-cost seat only brigade can't easily penetrate. Whether LBA gets in on this act I think will depend on whether the tour operators feel that as part of their defence against the low-cost carriers, they have to start serving more convenient local airports as opposed to centralising everything in MAN. In a recent TV programme, the TUI people were saying how they needed to freshen up their offering and make it "relevant" to what people were looking for. They didn't elaborate on whether flying almost every one in the North out MAN at all hours of the day or night and charging them an ambiguous "flight supplement" for the privilege would still be relevant or not. Time will tell I suppose.
682
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Inkjet
What has bmi and Eastern 'kissing and making up' got to do with Aviance ? Are they doing 'airline guidance counselling' also ?
The LCY is planned to be operated by a J41 and not the Saab 2000.
What has bmi and Eastern 'kissing and making up' got to do with Aviance ? Are they doing 'airline guidance counselling' also ?
The LCY is planned to be operated by a J41 and not the Saab 2000.
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Eastern could make it work as they target business travellers as opposed to leisure on most of their routes. The routes they serve which I have been on are generally 1/2 full but they rarely pull them which indicates they must be making a profit!!!!!
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pwalhx – Anyone who wishes the Jet2 MAN operation to fail is clearly not thinking straight as it might bring down the whole company or reduce the Dart Groups stock price to a level where competitors reach for their calculators to see if a takeover is possible. The troubles of the LGW route have been well raked over and other routes are being cut back e.g. BUD. Comparing the current traffic levels of Jet2 at LBA and MAN is not a fair one, rather LBA in 2003 vs MAN in 2005 should be the benchmark. LBA-BFS in particular started off at a very low level but has picked up gradually since. LGW has done this too but maybe not enough. Those of us who favour LBA would like to see the next tranche of expansion to come our way. This summer has only seen IBZ as a new route though most others have received increases in flight numbers so this summer was a slight anticlimax compared to previous years.
Re bmi LCY. I hear there are a shed load of adverts about for the new WOW service to BRS and beyond and the loads during the first week were very healthy. For bmi a few adverts appeared a couple of months after the start of the service and loads have been too low. A connection perhaps?????? Skeptical me! For a business oriented route there seems to be a serious lack of targeting of the major companies with bases in West Yorkshire who also have offices/HQs in London – basic error!
Re Eastern vs Flybe. I cannot think offhand of any route where Flybe and Eastern compete and Flybe operates a morning and evening service. I can’t see Eastern staying on the LBA-SOU if Flybe go to double daily and it has consistently been the route with the highest loads from LBA. In addition now that WOW have taken the BRS route Eastern have lost one of the best alternate routes that they could have switched to. Perhaps the Eastern and LCY rumours start to make sense as Flybe have moved out of LCY so are less likely to come back in the near future.
Any sign of the LBA Future Development Masterplan yet?
PTH
Re bmi LCY. I hear there are a shed load of adverts about for the new WOW service to BRS and beyond and the loads during the first week were very healthy. For bmi a few adverts appeared a couple of months after the start of the service and loads have been too low. A connection perhaps?????? Skeptical me! For a business oriented route there seems to be a serious lack of targeting of the major companies with bases in West Yorkshire who also have offices/HQs in London – basic error!
Re Eastern vs Flybe. I cannot think offhand of any route where Flybe and Eastern compete and Flybe operates a morning and evening service. I can’t see Eastern staying on the LBA-SOU if Flybe go to double daily and it has consistently been the route with the highest loads from LBA. In addition now that WOW have taken the BRS route Eastern have lost one of the best alternate routes that they could have switched to. Perhaps the Eastern and LCY rumours start to make sense as Flybe have moved out of LCY so are less likely to come back in the near future.
Any sign of the LBA Future Development Masterplan yet?
PTH
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Northern Hero
Aviance handle bmi at most of bmi's airports, if the rumour about LCY & Eastern is true (on behalf of bmi) then the switch from circusair to Aviance makes sense. Eastern are also to provide their own push back crews (or should that be power back crews)
The biggest cause of non slot delays at Leeds is ground support (lack of) there are simply not enough staff, buses,tugs, GPU's and increasingly stands.
For a public sector employer LBIA is a joke, its enviromental policy on noise and polution is a disgrace.
The GPU's they do have belch somke
There are no FGPS
They allow unristricted use of APU's day or night, i have walked past 4 screaming Embraers APU's parked tail in on a 12c (not cold) morning, with not one of them taxying for well over an hour.
They allow powering back of aircraft whilst passengers are boarding an adjacent aircraft less than 8m away
De icing well! i think LBIA (international joke) are banking on global warming.
Many of the problems at Leeds are down to subcontractor, but the bottom line is that passengers just think Leeds means delays and will increasingly vote with their feet when Donny open, meanwhile Leeds airport managers just carry on back slapping about the % growth they acheived,but fail to see it was from a very low base for a major UK city.
Bristol /Newcastle do far better
Cheers
Burt
The biggest cause of non slot delays at Leeds is ground support (lack of) there are simply not enough staff, buses,tugs, GPU's and increasingly stands.
For a public sector employer LBIA is a joke, its enviromental policy on noise and polution is a disgrace.
The GPU's they do have belch somke
There are no FGPS
They allow unristricted use of APU's day or night, i have walked past 4 screaming Embraers APU's parked tail in on a 12c (not cold) morning, with not one of them taxying for well over an hour.
They allow powering back of aircraft whilst passengers are boarding an adjacent aircraft less than 8m away
De icing well! i think LBIA (international joke) are banking on global warming.
Many of the problems at Leeds are down to subcontractor, but the bottom line is that passengers just think Leeds means delays and will increasingly vote with their feet when Donny open, meanwhile Leeds airport managers just carry on back slapping about the % growth they acheived,but fail to see it was from a very low base for a major UK city.
Bristol /Newcastle do far better
Cheers
Burt