LEEDS
"I have posted this before but it is quite interesting"
It's also quite misleading........
I don't know how the boundaries were defined for measuring the populations of these cities - geographic?, political? - but I'm pretty sure it's inappropriate to consider the City of Manchester alone. Just look at the size of the urban conurbation of Greater Manchester. It's vast. A quick look at a road atlas suggests to me that you could fit Leeds & Bradford into Greater Manchester 2 if not 3 times. There are lies, damned lies and statistics - you've got to look at the bigger picture.
This is the resentment thing again, isn't it?
p.s. A quick check via the Office of National Statistics shows (for 2002):
Metropolitan County of Manchester: Population 2,513,000
Metropolitan County of West Yorkshire: Population 2,089,000
It's also quite misleading........
I don't know how the boundaries were defined for measuring the populations of these cities - geographic?, political? - but I'm pretty sure it's inappropriate to consider the City of Manchester alone. Just look at the size of the urban conurbation of Greater Manchester. It's vast. A quick look at a road atlas suggests to me that you could fit Leeds & Bradford into Greater Manchester 2 if not 3 times. There are lies, damned lies and statistics - you've got to look at the bigger picture.
This is the resentment thing again, isn't it?
p.s. A quick check via the Office of National Statistics shows (for 2002):
Metropolitan County of Manchester: Population 2,513,000
Metropolitan County of West Yorkshire: Population 2,089,000
Last edited by Andy_S; 17th Nov 2004 at 15:12.
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Leeds Population
Ferther more, on top of the 726,939 inhabitace of Leeds (3rd largest in the UK) over 2,000,000 live in West Yorkshire alone, with over 5,000,000 accross the whole of Yorkshire.
Over 11,000,000 people live within an 80 minute drive of Leeds Bradford International airport and that is before the poor road connection argument starts again! Leeds itself probably has the best motorway connections of any city within the UK because of its natural strategic location.
Forgot to mention, the Government has stated its plans are to make the whole of West Yorkshire part of a Greater Leeds.
The city of Leeds. The largest financial centre in the UK outside of London.
Over 11,000,000 people live within an 80 minute drive of Leeds Bradford International airport and that is before the poor road connection argument starts again! Leeds itself probably has the best motorway connections of any city within the UK because of its natural strategic location.
Forgot to mention, the Government has stated its plans are to make the whole of West Yorkshire part of a Greater Leeds.
The city of Leeds. The largest financial centre in the UK outside of London.
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Leodis are you not confirming Andy_s's point. The populations of Metropiltain Manchester i.e. the county Of Gretaer Manchester is 2.5 Million. The proposed Greater Leeds would be 2 million.
Anyway the population of the relative cities is irrelevant. Manchester draws from a catchment area from the Scottish Borders to the Midlands and Leeds doesn't.
I am sorry to say the fact that Leeds is the largest financial centre outside London is irrelevant.
The fact is that more people choose to use Manchster than other regional airports.
The other fact is this trite argument over population detracts from the real purpose of this forum to discuss avaiation.
Lets get over Yorkshire/Lancashire rivalry, accept the facts and get back to what we should be discussing.
Anyway the population of the relative cities is irrelevant. Manchester draws from a catchment area from the Scottish Borders to the Midlands and Leeds doesn't.
I am sorry to say the fact that Leeds is the largest financial centre outside London is irrelevant.
The fact is that more people choose to use Manchster than other regional airports.
The other fact is this trite argument over population detracts from the real purpose of this forum to discuss avaiation.
Lets get over Yorkshire/Lancashire rivalry, accept the facts and get back to what we should be discussing.
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"Forgot to mention, the Government has stated its plans are to make the whole of West Yorkshire part of a Greater Leeds"
Seriously? There'll be civil war, glad I'm out of it if they are. I'd not want to live in a greater L**ds.
Seriously? There'll be civil war, glad I'm out of it if they are. I'd not want to live in a greater L**ds.
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People choose Manchester?
More people CHOOSE to fly from Manchester rather than other regional airports
Given the choice, the majority of people from the greater part of West Yorkshire would choose LBA, just as the majority of people in Merseyside would choose LPL and Sheffield WILL choose DSA before traveling to Manchester.
I really think the regional airports should be given more credibility, Jet2 has gained its credibility at LBA just as Easyjet gained its credibility at LTN and LPL. The investment tails away by these airlines and transfers to the larger airports for the more prestigious image. This does nothing for the traveling public.
Anyway, if Jet2 had announced a new Leeds service at the same time as the new Manchester-Gatwick service, it would have gone almost unnoticed. There does seem to be other issues behind those boardroom doors!
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It was not my intention to stir things up.
I was indicating that there should be a big demand for flights to Gatwick when you look at the population figures.
When you consider how many Gatwick rotations per day from Manchester and zero from LBA. Not only that,Leeds has always supported a big disproportionate number of business travellers compared with charter flights. City Flyer did not realise the full potential on this route because initialy they used a shed. This was dire in the winter time. Figures picked up with the ATR and and then I think the plan was to introduce 1-11s. Then I believe BA wanted the slots for other flights if I am correct and the service was dropped.
I was indicating that there should be a big demand for flights to Gatwick when you look at the population figures.
When you consider how many Gatwick rotations per day from Manchester and zero from LBA. Not only that,Leeds has always supported a big disproportionate number of business travellers compared with charter flights. City Flyer did not realise the full potential on this route because initialy they used a shed. This was dire in the winter time. Figures picked up with the ATR and and then I think the plan was to introduce 1-11s. Then I believe BA wanted the slots for other flights if I am correct and the service was dropped.
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wawkrk
Yes, I understand your comments on the previous Gatwick service to be true. Towards the latter end, passenger figures had been very good. It would be interesting to know how many passengers actually used the Leeds-Gatwick flight, bearing in mind this was a business flight.
When the service was operated by British Regional Airlines, the main problem that I could remember is that the service was so popular, transiting passengers often had their bags left behind because the aircraft was so full!
When the service was operated by British Regional Airlines, the main problem that I could remember is that the service was so popular, transiting passengers often had their bags left behind because the aircraft was so full!
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This is a real kick in the teeth for LBA! Jet2 have been fantastic over the past 20 months with their flights from LBA. Look at next summer with our 3 daily flights to AGP and double daily to many other destinations, Jet2 are the best thing to happen up there in a long long time. Now everyone knows my very strong views on the management muppets up there ( don't worry pprune police i'm not going to name names...they know who they are!!!) but this time it's not their fault! ( like they had any idea what was going on anyway!)
POL1W told us all what Jet2 were planning on the 25th October and to be honest i didn't believe it at first untill i looked into it. Yes, Jet2 have really done the dirty on LBIA. I hope the muppets knew about this aswell? I wonder if they still read pprune? They have been licking Jet2's arse for nearly 2 years now while all the other airlines don't get a look in. Well i hope this is their wake up call. Flybe, Easy even baby at a push could all operate from LBA to upto a dozen different destinations from LBA to what Jet2 offer. I do think Jet2 will expand at Leeds...Newquay, Jersey, Almeria,Tenerife etc could all do very well but the dirty tricks they have just played has annoyed many people on here.
BTW...Talking about another airline for a minute bmi had 90 pax in business class yesterday morning on their EDI flight. Now if that's not worth a A319 on this route then my names not BMIFOX!
POL1W told us all what Jet2 were planning on the 25th October and to be honest i didn't believe it at first untill i looked into it. Yes, Jet2 have really done the dirty on LBIA. I hope the muppets knew about this aswell? I wonder if they still read pprune? They have been licking Jet2's arse for nearly 2 years now while all the other airlines don't get a look in. Well i hope this is their wake up call. Flybe, Easy even baby at a push could all operate from LBA to upto a dozen different destinations from LBA to what Jet2 offer. I do think Jet2 will expand at Leeds...Newquay, Jersey, Almeria,Tenerife etc could all do very well but the dirty tricks they have just played has annoyed many people on here.
BTW...Talking about another airline for a minute bmi had 90 pax in business class yesterday morning on their EDI flight. Now if that's not worth a A319 on this route then my names not BMIFOX!
Last edited by bmifox; 18th Nov 2004 at 09:07.
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With respect to all at LBA, you should be grateful you still have a link with LHR, let alone trying to get LGW. The Liverpool Daily Post has just started a drive to find a carrier to operate LPL-LHR again, along similar lines to achieving the VLM service to LCY which commenced in Feb this year. Good luck to them!
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Amazing what you can achieve when two banks merge and suddenly have a need to ferry clerks between headquarters eg from Leeds to Edinburgh.
Would be interesting to see what homework was done prior to launching the London City service. I just cant see how it's going to compete with GNER. OK they're giving seats away now but must be a cashflow nightmare. If they put fares up to a more viable level there will be even less reason to use the service.
Most users' overall journey times will be the same, the train is more comfortable, you can use laptops etc, and if you miss one there will be another in 30 minutes or less. Now , Gatwick or a Bristol/Cardiff round the houses service might actually offer real advantages in travel times
Would be interesting to see what homework was done prior to launching the London City service. I just cant see how it's going to compete with GNER. OK they're giving seats away now but must be a cashflow nightmare. If they put fares up to a more viable level there will be even less reason to use the service.
Most users' overall journey times will be the same, the train is more comfortable, you can use laptops etc, and if you miss one there will be another in 30 minutes or less. Now , Gatwick or a Bristol/Cardiff round the houses service might actually offer real advantages in travel times
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dbromle - for the southbound market, it depends where you're going to in London and where you're starting your journey from in the North. A disproportionate amount of the business types on GNER are from the Harrogate / Ilkley / North Leeds region which means you've got 30 minutes to get into central Leeds to catch the southbound train. If your destination is Docklands / Canary Wharf you can add another 30 minutes onto that to get across from Kings Cross. Add to that 15 minutes grace to make the various connections along the way and your looking at a total door to door journey time of 3:15 southbound and 3:45 on the return (due to more stops on the northbound trains). 7 hours travelling time for a day return.
Compare that to 20 minute drive to LBA, 25 minute check-in, 1 hour flight, 15 mins to Docklands, that's 2 hours. So 4 hours in total for a day return and a 3 hour saving vs the train. Obviously, the further / closer you live to central Leeds and the further east / west of central London your destination is, the higher / lower this time saving is.
The fare you'll pay to bmi is dependant on how flexible you want to be and how far in advance you book. How much your prepared to pay is very much a subjective decision based on wealth and time pressures.
No one pretends this is an all out assault on the GNER southbound market, but rather an attempt to capture the time conscious business types that live much closer to LBA than Leeds rail station. Whether they are accurately targeting this market with their advertising is another matter! The introduction of the Embraer135 onto the route and the opening of the DLR extension into City should help shave a few more minutes off the journey and help things along a bit.
682
Compare that to 20 minute drive to LBA, 25 minute check-in, 1 hour flight, 15 mins to Docklands, that's 2 hours. So 4 hours in total for a day return and a 3 hour saving vs the train. Obviously, the further / closer you live to central Leeds and the further east / west of central London your destination is, the higher / lower this time saving is.
The fare you'll pay to bmi is dependant on how flexible you want to be and how far in advance you book. How much your prepared to pay is very much a subjective decision based on wealth and time pressures.
No one pretends this is an all out assault on the GNER southbound market, but rather an attempt to capture the time conscious business types that live much closer to LBA than Leeds rail station. Whether they are accurately targeting this market with their advertising is another matter! The introduction of the Embraer135 onto the route and the opening of the DLR extension into City should help shave a few more minutes off the journey and help things along a bit.
682
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D,bromle
I gather that the LCY route is already close to or at breakeven after just a couple of weeks, the costs of the wet lease ATR are half that of using a 135 and block time is just 5 minutes more. I do agree about the railways, but i guess it all depends on where you live and work. Certainly the staff from First Direct seem to like the service. The important thing is the split between Y&C class and thats where they are quids in!!
Either way the ATR is going to be here until the end of next Summer at least. I also hear that the Eastern 145 is heading for a bmi paint job and going to either Leeds or NEMA with the new 135 going into EDI ? What chance EDI-Munich
Burt
Either way the ATR is going to be here until the end of next Summer at least. I also hear that the Eastern 145 is heading for a bmi paint job and going to either Leeds or NEMA with the new 135 going into EDI ? What chance EDI-Munich
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What about an EDI - LCY, with the ERJ135 up against the 328 of Scot Airways.
Why though would EZE give-up their 145 to bmi regional?
Thought they were sworn enemies out of NWI!
Good to hear that LBA - LCY appears to be getting some good (C) loads. Lots of financial institutions around Granary Loaf these days - a bit like Leeds!
Why though would EZE give-up their 145 to bmi regional?
Thought they were sworn enemies out of NWI!
Good to hear that LBA - LCY appears to be getting some good (C) loads. Lots of financial institutions around Granary Loaf these days - a bit like Leeds!
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682
I do understand that they can get firms to pay £300 for staff to day trip Edinburgh-I have done it myself several times, and have to hand it to BM for turning round the shambles left by UK and then Gill
But there is a clearer journey time benefit, especially if the destination is to the Gyle area.
Having used the City service, I feel the suggested times by air are a little optimistic. By the time the 0720 has been on a tour of North Kent and Essex awaiting its turn to land, then been pushed back on stand before passengers can join the bus to the terminal, you are only walking out at around 0850. To catch the 0720 allowing for parking, check in etc probably means leaving a home in Ilkley around 0615. Alternatively catching the 0610 train and changing into the 0700 at Leeds gets you into Kings Cross around 0900. I realise Canary Wharf is nearer to City Airport than Kings Cross, but the overall time difference isn't all that great especially when the other aspects are factored in. The inevitable diversion to Teeside or Manchester probably balances problems with the overhead wiring.
However if there is a sufficiently large niche there prepared to pay the full price, good luck to them. But I only paid a fare approx half the GNER second class fare this week and both flights were very lightly loaded. If they're breaking even at that then I am very surprised
Time will tell. Either way credit to them for giving it a go
I do understand that they can get firms to pay £300 for staff to day trip Edinburgh-I have done it myself several times, and have to hand it to BM for turning round the shambles left by UK and then Gill
But there is a clearer journey time benefit, especially if the destination is to the Gyle area.
Having used the City service, I feel the suggested times by air are a little optimistic. By the time the 0720 has been on a tour of North Kent and Essex awaiting its turn to land, then been pushed back on stand before passengers can join the bus to the terminal, you are only walking out at around 0850. To catch the 0720 allowing for parking, check in etc probably means leaving a home in Ilkley around 0615. Alternatively catching the 0610 train and changing into the 0700 at Leeds gets you into Kings Cross around 0900. I realise Canary Wharf is nearer to City Airport than Kings Cross, but the overall time difference isn't all that great especially when the other aspects are factored in. The inevitable diversion to Teeside or Manchester probably balances problems with the overhead wiring.
However if there is a sufficiently large niche there prepared to pay the full price, good luck to them. But I only paid a fare approx half the GNER second class fare this week and both flights were very lightly loaded. If they're breaking even at that then I am very surprised
Time will tell. Either way credit to them for giving it a go
