BA still "Too Expensive to Run"5000 jobs to go ???

[ojs]

LGS6753, I agree with you that some functions could be outsourced and I'm surprised we haven't already witnessed the development of a "British Airways Ground Services" company - a wholly owned subsidiary of BA. Especially given the problems at LHR this summer. Perhaps because of militant union fear?..

There are two problems though:

(a) What do you do with the staff left behind at BA? There are a lot of "lifers" and redundancy is expensive for a cash-poor company.

(b) BA has a poor track-record in managing its outsource companies. OK, A1 (Amadeus) have actually done a good job in the RTZ/RTB migration - unplanned outages are at their lowest level ever - but my God it's hard work working with them! Look too at relationships with IBM, EDS and Omnetica over the years... Perhaps not as great as the Business Plan said they would be.

Incidentallly, talking of check-in, I've always thought it odd that bearing in mind it's perfectly possible to teach automated (computer) check-in course in 5 days and then feel happy to place those trained agents on a desk, why does it take BA so much longer to train its staff? The service is no better!

It's all a question of attitude.

If BA recognised that they could take 5 days then they could take on a load of temporary staff (read "students") over the Summer without any difficulty!

[HOVIS]

LGS6753.. Why not outsource the pilots too?

[TwoTun]

411A Free !!!

A confession;

after all this time, I never bothered with the "Ignore" list.

Now I've done I've taken the time to sort it out, and I'm 411A Free!!

Isn't technology wonderful?

TwoTun
thankfully out of aviation now the inmates are running the assylum.

[woodpecker]

A short survey... Are you "411A free"?

A simple post to the effect... I've used Pprune's "Ignore" function and I'm 411A free...it's great!

It really is!

Having got that off my chest, (and now outside looking in), It did concern me that an AML cabin crew (disguised as BA) were rostered two night sectors out of the Caribbean with no proper rest facilities. Mind you they needed all that time "on duty" to look after the 400 punters.

My next trip was an evening mailine departure to Tel Aviv (with about sixty passengers less and one crew member more). The first thing arranged by the CSD was the bunk rest timings. I think the figure ended up at over two hours!

How you sort it all out I don't know.

I don't obviously need to care (part 6, retired) but I still do!!

[sevenforeseven]

LGS6753
WHILE I AGREE SOME JOBS CAN BE OUTSOURCED IE BAGGAGE HANDLING/CHECK IN OTHERS CANNOT IE MAINTENANCE. IMAGINE FINDING SOMETHING LIKE A LOOSE BOLT, A BA ENGINEER WOULD JUST TIGHTEN IT WHILE A SUBCONTRACTOR WOULD SAY THATS XX.XX PLEASE.
IF YOU THINK OUTSOURCING IS A GOOD THING THERE ARE NO SUCH JOBS AS CORE FUNCTIONS EVERYTHING CAN BE OUTSOURCED INCLUDING CABIN ATTENDANTS/FLIGHT CREW/ENGINEERS, AND GUESS WHAT, BA MANAGERS WILL STILL BE IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE ALL IS BEING DONE CORRECTLY, SO WAKE UP STOP DREAMING, MANAGERS ARE WINNING AND WILL ALWAYS WIN. SORRY BUT THATS THE WAY IT IS.
ps I am not in a management position.

[JONSV]

I think BA outsourcing pilots would be a great idea!

That way we'd all be freelance and they'd have to pay us much more!

Imagine how much money all we pilots could make if we ALL banded together as one huge pilot agency with a complete monopoly!

Today the airlines, tommorrow the WORLD! HA HA HA!!

[HZ123]

I cannot see that at present there is a company larger enough to take on the ground handling operation. In addition you get what you pay for and it is unlikely that you will get a better service.

BA did much of these things before outsourcing MT , Vehicle service, IT, Security. Facilities and more. Many of these disciplines are now costing more and are porrly performed. We also tried service delivery level agreements for quality standards and that does not work either.

[TopBunk]

HZ123

BA did much of these things before outsourcing MT

..err, excuse me, when did BA outsource MT? Certainly not at LHR where they are one of the bigger groups of layabouts around. Restrictive practises right from the '60s abound, drivers doing limited numbers of round trips per day, hiding in poor radio reception areas when job done, not calling in when job is done, to change crew on one aircraft rotation at LHR often required 3, yes 3, buses. One for the inbound crew, 2 for the outbound (one collecting crew from Compass Centre and one collecting crew in the Central area). Frequently I find myself waiting for transport outside the CAT lounge only to see the cabin crew bus pass by - they will not stop - against their interests. They were also primarily responsible for the delayed implementation of the single crew bus for longhaul arrivals - cost them jobs/overtime. Rumoured that most of them are on £45K pa.

Did you know that BA have the second largest fleet of buses in the UK after Stagecoach?

The sooner that they sub contract MT or T5 is built the better.

Now as for baggage handling, by all accounts the managers aren't allowed into the department without union agreement. Heavens knows what practises go on in there - one shudders at the possibilities.

[colossus]

Judge and Jury

The truth is that the Judge of BA ultimately is the City, and the Jury it’s passengers

At the end of the day BA’s salvation can only come from within, across all business functions when the culture becomes focused again on delivering customer service and satisfaction, as more and more disaffected customers choose to travel with other carriers, as the market offers more and more choice.

It appears to be (as a mere humble PAX) an organisation with two very differing sub-cultures, a position that it can no longer afford (in truth it’s been a problem for many years), and the City will only tolerate for so long.

One culture is stuck in a time warp, believing that BA will provide (job for life, great pension position, outmoded working practices etc.), and that they have the most important job function in the company, be that in the air, on the ground, in an office, or boardroom.

The other has those individuals with a passionate belief in the organisation, the vision to realise that the solution lies by the whole company moving forward, and not apportioning blame else ware every time, and the realisation that it’s customers have and increasing choice of options, and that things need to change quickly.

This tread appears to have contributions from those in both cultures.

The hard task is to slay the old culture, either by converting those who current espouse to it, or remove these individuals from the organisation as quickly as possible, this task needs everyone to play their part.

I wish those contributing every success on what is going to be a long and painful 12-18 months, those who don’t want to contribute I suggest you stand aside because time is against you, and ultimately the City win, and their remedy will be ruthless in the extreme.

[PAXboy]

ccrew21: You list a truly wonderful range of milestones (although I would want to check details on one or two of them that would be nit-picking). The problem is not that BA have been so innovative and that they continue to win awards - it is that they can no longer do so at a reliable profit. As others have said, the City will withdraw support and take their money elsewhere. Then the share price falls, then they get bought up.

I think that outsourcing can reduce costs but I think it does reduce service. Over the past 23 years that I have been in a service industry (telecommunications) I have seen outsourcing at close range and from both sides of the line. I have seen it in America and the UK and Germany and I don't believe in it because service levels cannot be maintained.

All the words about the service company being focussed on delivery to the client slowly fades. The staff move their focus towards their own company and the their survival which, often works against the client. I have seen it at first hand. Service Level Agreements? Hah!

topbunk:

Now as for baggage handling, by all accounts the managers aren't allowed into the department without union agreement.

If this is true then they are in even deeper troubles that I thought! I may not be a fan of UK managers but if they cannot get direct access to what they are managing then someone has blundered.

colossus:

The hard task is to slay the old culture, either by converting those who current espouse to it, or remove these individuals from the organisation as quickly as possible, this task needs everyone to play their part.

Certainly it does but removing the old culture is nigh on impossible. I could describe this problem with regards to BAA but I am always bashing them so let me choose one from my own field.

BT have changed a colossal amount (sorry could not resist!) in the 19 years since the start of their privatisation. BUT to anyone who works with them regularly, you will hear and see that some of their 'core values' have not changed. There are still people in BT who think that they should be given certain contracts as they are - simply - BT. You will hear many BT people say, "Some parts of this company still act like they are the GPO and don't have to listen to anyone."

Does this sound familiar? Just like BA think that some passengers are naturally theirs and some departments think that they really are the world's favourite airline?

Once again, sorry to say these things but it is what I see.

[loaded1]

A huge 'thank you' to 412 for his eminently sensible ripostes to 411a that place him firmly in the context he deserves.

411a's habit is to ignore the facts and move to his own line of "spin" in nearly every reply he makes. Some are gratuitously offensive, (see threads related to former Concorde Fllight Engineers), and most seem motivated by a strain of bitterness that has nothing to do with airline economics and everything to do with a pathological resentment of the salaries that flightcrew earn.

People in this business have been savaged by factors far beyond any one entity's ability to control, and it is 411a's apparent glee at our collective misfortunes that I dislike most of all.

I reiterate my own position: if my carrier folds after all the years I've done in the seniority system and pension scheme I will leave the industry and never look back. I am not alone. My future was not compromised by my 'greed', but the arrogance of a chief executive who sacked any of his 'team' that dared contradict him and went on to beggar a fine airline by mortgaging it to the hilt, £4.8 billion to be precise.

Among my peers who are not in aviation I am the worst paid and have taken the longest to reach the peak of my profession. This may be 'the market' at work, yet even when we were at our peak as an airline I earnt an average salary for the European industry, so it appears a one way bet.

Doubtless this is as 411a would have it be, but in the end if you have any self respect one has to start wondering if the job's worth it, especially if you chuck-in working for delusional tyrants like Bob A@ling and his under-performing Lieutenants, or indeed the likes of 411a, who appears to aspire to such greatness. There are other things to do.

If BA goes under I hereby promise 411a that I'll cheerfully post a reply to let him know how I get on "out in the cold". Another of 411a's backround assumptions seems to be that everyone in aviation is incapable of doing anything else to keep body and soul together, such that they'll be queuing-up to be 'dissed' by the likes of him and his new airline.

It seems to escape 411a that the role model for the low cost airline sector, Southwest, is run by a charismatic entrepreneur who places the morale of his people at the top of the criteria that has made that company the most consistently profitable airline in history. 411a's potential bankers may like to take note of his very public views on the place an employee holds in the food chain.


If 411a can create employment in one of the worst downturns an already highly cyclical industry has ever seen, then I salute him. Perhaps with the aircraft in place and the reality of man management upon him, his views will change. I hope so, but I doubt it.

Meanwhile two factors give BA hope: the Government here has recognised the central role of aviation in creating prosperity through facilitating the interchange of commerce and the provision of leisure through tourism by providing the planning environment for vital airport growth to meet the ever rising trend demand for air travel. Reflecting this long term trend growth, BA's share price has risen such that BA is back in the FTSE 100. The Fat Lady has yet to sing, 411a: there is much hope for us yet and I know that everyone in BA will work to make that hope a reality.

As Christmas approaches, I send 411a every best wish for the success of his airline. I hope that it provides employment for many and him with the material rewards of entrepreneurship, as well as the necessary insights into human motivation and character that are essential to financial success.

[RRAAMJET]

One of the best posts in a long time, Loaded1; very thoughtful and well written. 411A could do worse than to read how to post without outraging the aviation community. Even when his posts contain accurate content matter, he has to cover them in an exo-skeleton of dung mixed with phasers-on-stun that many find unpalatable or unfathomable. I would have thought employee respect and credibility were important for management....

It's the presentation, not necessarily the content, 411a, that's riled the observers.

Kind of like watching the Washington Redskins....

[colossus]

PAXboy, as you are in agreement with the observation of the need for those within BA to adopt a culture more in tune with today’s economic realities as part of the pre-requisites to it’s long term survival, yet are extremely sceptical of it becoming a reality. Do you think that BA should perhaps start another airline along the lines of GO as a means of moving forward, say as a European carrier?

GO I guess had one advantage by being located at Stansted, in terms of cultural “contamination” from the less desirable practices of mainstream BA.

[Jet II]

Hmm???

BA's in the **** and £5 Billion in debt so who's to blame? - seems some think its 411A judging by the amount of posts attacking him

[411A]

Well, Jet II, seems some want to stick their collective heads where the sun doesn't shine...and lay blame elsewhere.
BA, and especially its management have only themselves to blame...it would appear that the 'Imperial Airways syndrome' is alive and well within the company.

The clock is ticking...for sure.

[HZ123]

Surely, despite all the critism of BA much of which is acknowledged there are very few airlines (full service - long / short haul) that are in any better fiscal condition. The prospects of improvement in the industry look pretty flat for next year too. BA will still be around after many others have failed.

[PAXboy]

colossus: I continue to hope that BA will be around for many years to come. As HZ123 has just said, everyone is in difficulties. The reason that I am sceptical is that I have not seen many other large, mature, organisations turn themselves around, I hope that BA prove me wrong.

As to solutions? I think that GO was a very good idea and might have been the way to move back to a lower cost domestic/regional/short haul and separate the long haul full service. My reason for supporting that split is that the BEA/BOAC merger was politically driven not operationally so. The arrival of the LoCo operators has changed European services in a way that could not have been anticipated. As an aside, Eurostar finds itself with the same problem as it did not know that LGW/STN/LTN would be offerring return fares to CDG/ORY/BRU at less than 50% of their standard fares and their fares were going to undercut mainline fares. Since GO has been sold and the market already consolidating, there is no chance of launching another in this category. I suggest that the management were far sighted in starting it and short sighted in selling it.

What to do? Long haul will also have some LoCo operators trying for the Laker SKyTrain model and so the competition is going to be tough. If you reduce routes and frequency - you reduce income. Assets have already been slimmed and trimmed and leased-back and what have you. This leaves salaries. I am not aware of any company in recent years that has been able to reduce salaries and benefits by up to 20% without hideous amounts of strike action. Humans just don't work that way. They only reduce this component when they are in administration or when relaunching after being merged.

The European market of full service airlines is over capacity. In my own field, telecommunications, I have seen consolidation that has taken my breath away. In this country and others, I have seen proud names vanish. Some that used to be considered the 'national flag carrying company' for telecomms.

Again, for those who don't read all my (admittedly long) post, I hope that BA prove me wrong.

[RRAAMJET]

"I am not aware....by up to 20%..."

Pax: how about AA? 23% pay cuts and further work-rule concessions - no strike, not in administration. Meanwhile the CEO was attempting to line his own pocket - still no strike when it was discovered. There's restraint for you. (CH11 would have surely followed, however...)

Now Don Carty sits in his new $13 mil house in Canada writing sniping articles to the newspapers about it wasn't his fault, it's all the employees fault, blah, blah. Leadership, eh?

He even got asked to be guest speaker at SMU Business school recently - ha, ha, ha. This from a man who apparently thought skipping the Business Ethics classes at Harvard would be cool...

[PAXboy]

RRAMJET: Thanks for the info, I am sure that AA will benefit. If BA can only start cutting the mngt jobs then they will be heading in the right direction. My guess is that it's easier to lay people off than it is to get people to reduce their salary - even if that might be better for all in the long term and save on redundancy fees.

Not surprised to hear about Carty, modern management thinks that when things are not going well, all that is needed is Just a bit more management. In this regard, they are like dictators who keep shooting people until there is an uprising and he is overthrown. Works the same in companies. Except that, rather than spilling blood directly, it is indirect.

[411A]

RRAAMJET is right, the AA guys took the big hit, and suspect it will pay off big time in the years to come.
Meanwhile, 'tis a shame that Carty and company are not on the inside looking out...of a jail cell.
Just like Harding Lawrence at Braniff years ago, running the company into the ground with very big expensive executive perks does not inspire confidence in 'management'.