BA still "Too Expensive to Run"5000 jobs to go ???
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Left2primary
Well how about the common tactic of combining two service rounds (meals/bar then tea&coffee) into one to reduce service time in direct contravention of the service standard guidelines? The whole cabin can then be done in two sweeps instead of three, allowing extra time to disappear off to the bunks on shorter sectors which do not have bunk rest scheduled. Or even better, getting some kip in the closed off First cabin with over half the crew asleep instead of performing the required cabin patrols? Frankly on some BA flights I've done you'd have more chance of finding a crew member on the Marie Celeste. The CAA didn't give them a b******ing for the fun of it.
BA operated with 16 cabin crew on a 747 when there were almost 400 passengers. A 17th was added when the First service was changed to a more labour intensive task in the galley. When First was changed back the 17th person stayed on board. After 911 the number was dropped to 16, but the aircraft only have around 320 passengers now. Why should it be a struggle?
With all due respect you clearly do not know what you are talking about.
Cabin crew rushing the service to maximise their rest breaks?, please.
When have you ever had a plate/tray/drink removed before you have finished with it?
Cabin crew rushing the service to maximise their rest breaks?, please.
When have you ever had a plate/tray/drink removed before you have finished with it?
mainline carriers have reduced the number of cabin crew on board .
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Bellerophon,
Miss your Concorde do you?
Now that they have been parked (should have been turned into beer cans), does tending the garden and concentrating on spelling fill your daily schedule?
BA is DOOMED if it cannot, as an operating company, pull up its socks and fly right.
20% pay cut for all staff, and a total goodby to an unneeded 20% would be a good start.
Vultures are closing in now.
Oh yes, forgot to mention, on the B747, twelve CC should be enough. What are the rest for...one wonders
Miss your Concorde do you?
Now that they have been parked (should have been turned into beer cans), does tending the garden and concentrating on spelling fill your daily schedule?
BA is DOOMED if it cannot, as an operating company, pull up its socks and fly right.
20% pay cut for all staff, and a total goodby to an unneeded 20% would be a good start.
Vultures are closing in now.
Oh yes, forgot to mention, on the B747, twelve CC should be enough. What are the rest for...one wonders
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...after all these years of listening to the mean-spirited rantings of 411A, I thought it time to offer a counterweight. If for no other reason than to try and balance the opinion of us 'yanks' in the minds of the majority of PPRUNE members. I am astounded that a 'Fountain Hills' based 'Walter Mitty' such as 411 feels he is an 'authority' on.....well, just about EVERY subject to do with aviation....! On behalf of all of the other aviators in the US, I apologise to those hard-working airline employees who 411 feels have marginal value and who's families should all be on food-stamps.
411A, your heartless and vitriolic comments (...always couched in your 'realist' tones...) are nothing more than the result of a bitter and twisted individual who has failed in achieving his professional desires, and resents those that have achieved their goals after many years of struggle at great cost in money and effort. I admire the European airlines like BA that have innovated throughout their history, and am distressed that the economics of the industry have been undermined by the ruthless and short-sighted individuals who have now seemingly brought their own airlines to ruin in this country (AA/UA), solely to line their own management pockets. 411A, the individual airline pilot/FA/Dispatcher, etc are NOT the problem as you seem to insist. For a B744 Captain to earn $250K a year is not unreasonable considering the number of pax carried, the years training, the responsibility and the risk to career that is carried through annual medicals, sim checks etc. These individuals spend many nights away from their families, miss many important events in their childrens lives, and suffer health and stress implications that very few careers do.
You occasionally make a worthwhile comment that is thought-provoking, but then unfailingly go on to ruin your arguement by suggesting that 'pay-cuts' (...oh, lets' start at 20%....!) and fatiguing schedules will 'bring the pilots down to reality'....
If pay-cuts are good..then heck, let's start with 50%.... No, experience has a value, and just because we are suffering through an era of the 'beancounter', doesn't mean that the piloting profession is worth no more than a common bus-driver.
I think the main reason PPRUNE keeps you around is because of the entertainment value, rather like the senile uncle at family reunions ranting on about injustices past. I suggest you get on with 'starting' your airline, where I am sure you will be regarded as the employer of choice.....
Also....if for no other reason, would you lighten up so that the rest of the world doesn't think that Phoenix/Scottsdale is full of sad, pathetic individuals instead of the fantastic, friendly place that it really is.....
411A, your heartless and vitriolic comments (...always couched in your 'realist' tones...) are nothing more than the result of a bitter and twisted individual who has failed in achieving his professional desires, and resents those that have achieved their goals after many years of struggle at great cost in money and effort. I admire the European airlines like BA that have innovated throughout their history, and am distressed that the economics of the industry have been undermined by the ruthless and short-sighted individuals who have now seemingly brought their own airlines to ruin in this country (AA/UA), solely to line their own management pockets. 411A, the individual airline pilot/FA/Dispatcher, etc are NOT the problem as you seem to insist. For a B744 Captain to earn $250K a year is not unreasonable considering the number of pax carried, the years training, the responsibility and the risk to career that is carried through annual medicals, sim checks etc. These individuals spend many nights away from their families, miss many important events in their childrens lives, and suffer health and stress implications that very few careers do.
You occasionally make a worthwhile comment that is thought-provoking, but then unfailingly go on to ruin your arguement by suggesting that 'pay-cuts' (...oh, lets' start at 20%....!) and fatiguing schedules will 'bring the pilots down to reality'....
If pay-cuts are good..then heck, let's start with 50%.... No, experience has a value, and just because we are suffering through an era of the 'beancounter', doesn't mean that the piloting profession is worth no more than a common bus-driver.
I think the main reason PPRUNE keeps you around is because of the entertainment value, rather like the senile uncle at family reunions ranting on about injustices past. I suggest you get on with 'starting' your airline, where I am sure you will be regarded as the employer of choice.....
Also....if for no other reason, would you lighten up so that the rest of the world doesn't think that Phoenix/Scottsdale is full of sad, pathetic individuals instead of the fantastic, friendly place that it really is.....
Last edited by Hawk; 2nd Jan 2004 at 22:54.
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Gosh 412A, you sound really upset.
The fact is, aviation (ie: airline flying, operations, costs etc) are changing rapidly, and yes, those that expect rapid advancement to the top rung of the salary ladder will, now and in the years to come, find that the ladder is rather shorter than it has been in years past.
Fact...not fallacy.
Those airlines that cannot get a handle on costs, wherever based, will just have to adapt, or fade slowly away.
Lets see....
PanAmerican
Braniff
Eastern Air Lines
TWA
Sebena
SwissAir
All failed carriers. And to this list we could have added Continental, until rescued from the brink.
The employees lost their jobs. Vendors failed.
Did the management of these failed companies suffer?
Yes, i'm sure Harding Lawrence (CEO Braniff) had a really hard time keeping his $5million house in Alcapulco.
Those sitting at the top of the seniority list at aircarriers that have not come to terms with updated cost-effective management style, will find themselves out of a job, sooner or later.
If you think you are worth $250k a year commanding a B747, you are dreaming.
Dream on McDuff.
The fact is, aviation (ie: airline flying, operations, costs etc) are changing rapidly, and yes, those that expect rapid advancement to the top rung of the salary ladder will, now and in the years to come, find that the ladder is rather shorter than it has been in years past.
Fact...not fallacy.
Those airlines that cannot get a handle on costs, wherever based, will just have to adapt, or fade slowly away.
Lets see....
PanAmerican
Braniff
Eastern Air Lines
TWA
Sebena
SwissAir
All failed carriers. And to this list we could have added Continental, until rescued from the brink.
The employees lost their jobs. Vendors failed.
Did the management of these failed companies suffer?
Yes, i'm sure Harding Lawrence (CEO Braniff) had a really hard time keeping his $5million house in Alcapulco.
Those sitting at the top of the seniority list at aircarriers that have not come to terms with updated cost-effective management style, will find themselves out of a job, sooner or later.
If you think you are worth $250k a year commanding a B747, you are dreaming.
Dream on McDuff.
Last edited by 411A; 19th Dec 2003 at 11:39.
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your assessment of my value is of no consequence, neither is it in respect of those men and women who do Captain 747's. Funny you should mention Continental. It was only when Gordon Bethune took over and scrapped the deluded and destructive 'bottom line' policies of the Lorenzo era that Continental was resurected into the best airline in the US. Their pilots are now (other than Delta) the highest paid, most motivated and most satisfied pilots in the industry. Could it be that Gordon, being a pilot himself, understands that an employee has a worth greater than the absolute bottom line...? Continental is now considered the best airline in the US industry, and it did it completely counter to your lame and tired ideas. Your ideas 411 were discredited 15+ years ago when the Lorenzo experiment was shown to be an abject failure. Why is it that you can't see that your ideas represent recent history that has been consingned to the scrapheap.
...reading some of your 2500+ posts (good grief...!), it seems that you truly, and sadly have no life other than to type away thinking you are contributing anything constructive to the issues of aviation. I will not be answering to all your posts because, unlike you, I do have a life beyond inane rantings based on bitterness and failure. Over to you McFly.
...reading some of your 2500+ posts (good grief...!), it seems that you truly, and sadly have no life other than to type away thinking you are contributing anything constructive to the issues of aviation. I will not be answering to all your posts because, unlike you, I do have a life beyond inane rantings based on bitterness and failure. Over to you McFly.
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Hi 411A
I see that you are still posting with all the goodwill of the ghost of Christmas [future.]
By the way, remind us how long you were a Concorde pilot for?
Funny that all the Concordes will be prime attractions at museums and will captivate future generations of children, who will become the pilots of tomorrow, whilst the technologically advanced TriStar is the type now assisting in the distribution of Milwaukee's finest
I see that you are still posting with all the goodwill of the ghost of Christmas [future.]
By the way, remind us how long you were a Concorde pilot for?
Funny that all the Concordes will be prime attractions at museums and will captivate future generations of children, who will become the pilots of tomorrow, whilst the technologically advanced TriStar is the type now assisting in the distribution of Milwaukee's finest
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Well, Final 3 Greens, Concorde was parked simply because it could not cut the mustard, cost wise.
Too expensive, too old, obsolete.
Gosh, sounds like BA.
Oddly enough, ten TriStars are in the process of being re-activated, and expect more to follow.
Meanwhile, Concorde is a doorstop in several museums.
Too expensive, too old, obsolete.
Gosh, sounds like BA.
Oddly enough, ten TriStars are in the process of being re-activated, and expect more to follow.
Meanwhile, Concorde is a doorstop in several museums.
Last edited by 411A; 19th Dec 2003 at 12:38.
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Hi 411A
Nice to see that your mind is still working, despite my suspicions of Alzheimers
Ah yes, the failed Concorde feasibility study..... 27 years long - there's no dishonour in becoming obsolete dear old thing, we all do eventually, some sooner than others.
I hate to get bitchy, but the list of failed airlines you mention does seem to have rather a lot of American names on it and very few British ones.
The average lifespan of a Fortune 500 company is 40 years - BA is now 31 years old and working through the issues that face large corporations. However, it has one of the best global brands and this will be more significant in its survival than many realise.
Nice to see that your mind is still working, despite my suspicions of Alzheimers
Ah yes, the failed Concorde feasibility study..... 27 years long - there's no dishonour in becoming obsolete dear old thing, we all do eventually, some sooner than others.
I hate to get bitchy, but the list of failed airlines you mention does seem to have rather a lot of American names on it and very few British ones.
The average lifespan of a Fortune 500 company is 40 years - BA is now 31 years old and working through the issues that face large corporations. However, it has one of the best global brands and this will be more significant in its survival than many realise.
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Well F3G, sure hope so.
Some of the nicest folks I have met world-wide have been the early-out BA guys...at other companies.
They have all mentioned that...they were coddled in the extreme.
Wonder if it is still the same?
Some of the nicest folks I have met world-wide have been the early-out BA guys...at other companies.
They have all mentioned that...they were coddled in the extreme.
Wonder if it is still the same?
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411A
I think it was Mark Twain who said:
"It is far better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and remove all doubt"
I think it was Mark Twain who said:
"It is far better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and remove all doubt"
Last edited by Hawk; 2nd Jan 2004 at 22:57.
"There has never been any proven evidence of a " dirty tricks " campaign in ba......."
What utter nonsense. Just ask Marshall. Or King. or the Gatwick Helpliners. Or the passenger poachers. Ask about Operation Covent Gaden....
What utter nonsense. Just ask Marshall. Or King. or the Gatwick Helpliners. Or the passenger poachers. Ask about Operation Covent Gaden....
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Nice to hear from you BEagle ... you're still on earth.
I was working in Prague this week and one of my local contacts told me 'tomorrow zey vil fire BEagle to Mars." Bloody hell I thought - whose going to give us the gen on the Belgrano from now on
I was working in Prague this week and one of my local contacts told me 'tomorrow zey vil fire BEagle to Mars." Bloody hell I thought - whose going to give us the gen on the Belgrano from now on
Paxing All Over The World
maxy101
Uumm, I did not say that it would be! No, it would not be good but it is on the cards. Did you actually read what I wrote??
That is not what I want to see, I continue to say that BA is a fine airline on which to be a passenger (as my PPRuNe name states) but providing a good passenger experience is not enough and what I have described could easily happen.
As F3G said:
Big companies have a natural lifespan. Some live longer than others but there is always a limit. Boeing, for example, are moving into the next chapter of their existence and, as has been said, the Russians and Chinese are moving up to compete with Airbus.
I doubt that BA will survive in anything like it's present form in 10 years. Changes and (probably) mergers are needed, with individuals and governments needing to decide if having some people employed is better than none.
So PAXBOY Would that be a good or a bad thing for currently serving BA pilots?
That is not what I want to see, I continue to say that BA is a fine airline on which to be a passenger (as my PPRuNe name states) but providing a good passenger experience is not enough and what I have described could easily happen.
As F3G said:
The average lifespan of a Fortune 500 company is 40 years - BA is now 31 years old and working through the issues that face large corporations.
I doubt that BA will survive in anything like it's present form in 10 years. Changes and (probably) mergers are needed, with individuals and governments needing to decide if having some people employed is better than none.
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Renfrew
BOAC/BEA were govermental bodies, so BA has only been around as an entity since 1972 (full integration 1974) if we are talking about corporate lifecylces.
The bloodline, however, is a different matter and I would welcome another 84 years or more
BOAC/BEA were govermental bodies, so BA has only been around as an entity since 1972 (full integration 1974) if we are talking about corporate lifecylces.
The bloodline, however, is a different matter and I would welcome another 84 years or more
What BA needs (in managerial terms) is for some (more) of its non-core functions to be out-sourced.
Out-sourcing moves people out of the expensive pension scheme, away from lifetime perks, in to smaller, more focussed businesses who rely on service provision for survival. Head Office wallahs rely on politics for survival.
So what about outsourcing (for example) check-in, recruitment, PR, aircraft maintenance, website development, and literally hundreds of other functions.
Done carefully, it can revolutionise a company, but the company can retain and improve its innovative edge and customer care.
I have personal experience of turning round an ex-nationalised business, and restrictive practices and 'comfort management' issues have to be tackled head-on.
BA's a great airline with a great future, but nearly 20 years on, it still has vestiges of state ownership about it. That's got to change for it to unlock it's future potential
Out-sourcing moves people out of the expensive pension scheme, away from lifetime perks, in to smaller, more focussed businesses who rely on service provision for survival. Head Office wallahs rely on politics for survival.
So what about outsourcing (for example) check-in, recruitment, PR, aircraft maintenance, website development, and literally hundreds of other functions.
Done carefully, it can revolutionise a company, but the company can retain and improve its innovative edge and customer care.
I have personal experience of turning round an ex-nationalised business, and restrictive practices and 'comfort management' issues have to be tackled head-on.
BA's a great airline with a great future, but nearly 20 years on, it still has vestiges of state ownership about it. That's got to change for it to unlock it's future potential
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bat.man,
Mostly for Jordanian/middle east operators...Air Rum, Star, Air Universal, and a few more.
Problem is, many have no prior operating experience, not to mention maintenance know how, (never mind spares), so don't how long they will be operating.
TwoTun,
So, have you accepted the senior CC position yet?
Mostly for Jordanian/middle east operators...Air Rum, Star, Air Universal, and a few more.
Problem is, many have no prior operating experience, not to mention maintenance know how, (never mind spares), so don't how long they will be operating.
TwoTun,
So, have you accepted the senior CC position yet?
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QUOTE
Your post certainly made me smile ;-) but look at the evidence:
World first transatlantic jet service
Worlds first supersonic passenger service
Worlds first fully flat bed in First Class
Worlds first fully flat bed in business class
One of the first airlines to offer e-ticket, the first to offer it on international routes
First airline to put 100% of its staff through a putting people first programme and revolutionise its service delivery
First airline to employ a specialist wine buyer and leading international chefs to gain competitive advantage with superior food and wines bought at lower prices
First airline to offer four class service on international longhaul routes so offering an enhanced economy option
Worlds first personal video library on board in First Class
World's first well being in the air programme
World's first on board internet and email service
World leading flight and cabin crew training facilities used to train over 100 other airlines worldwide
First airline in the world to automate back office processes using e-forms and other e-working initiatives
BA's Waterside HQ was one of the first buildings in the world to provide a wireless infrastructure, so enabling workplace mobility
State of the art world cargo facility opened at LHR
BA has also recently won the best airline travel award for the 16th year in succession along with 6 other awards including best First Class and Best Business Class.
For all its faults, BA has demonstrated time and again its ability to surprise the industry. Personally I hated most of the ethnic tailfins, but look out of your window at the liveries of many of the world's airlines and you'll see the influence BA has had and how many have followed their lead. BA is a company which continually reinvents itself because at the heart of it all it has a tremendously gifted, loyal, talented and passionate workforce who believe in it and wouldn't want to work for anyone else no matter how much money was on the table.
Desk-pilot
was just reading through this forum ad saw this post from desk-pilot- im BA cabin crew & reading this made me extremely proud. i am happy 2 work for BA & no im not one of the pre-97 employees on massive salary basic- im 21-moved 2 london 2 work for a company i have always looked up 2 & now i feel extremely proud & work my arse off- with a positive attitude, high moral, good sense of humour- to help keep BA succesfull- its people like myself & desk-pilot who keep spirits high when every1 else just has total sh** to say! thanks.
Your post certainly made me smile ;-) but look at the evidence:
World first transatlantic jet service
Worlds first supersonic passenger service
Worlds first fully flat bed in First Class
Worlds first fully flat bed in business class
One of the first airlines to offer e-ticket, the first to offer it on international routes
First airline to put 100% of its staff through a putting people first programme and revolutionise its service delivery
First airline to employ a specialist wine buyer and leading international chefs to gain competitive advantage with superior food and wines bought at lower prices
First airline to offer four class service on international longhaul routes so offering an enhanced economy option
Worlds first personal video library on board in First Class
World's first well being in the air programme
World's first on board internet and email service
World leading flight and cabin crew training facilities used to train over 100 other airlines worldwide
First airline in the world to automate back office processes using e-forms and other e-working initiatives
BA's Waterside HQ was one of the first buildings in the world to provide a wireless infrastructure, so enabling workplace mobility
State of the art world cargo facility opened at LHR
BA has also recently won the best airline travel award for the 16th year in succession along with 6 other awards including best First Class and Best Business Class.
For all its faults, BA has demonstrated time and again its ability to surprise the industry. Personally I hated most of the ethnic tailfins, but look out of your window at the liveries of many of the world's airlines and you'll see the influence BA has had and how many have followed their lead. BA is a company which continually reinvents itself because at the heart of it all it has a tremendously gifted, loyal, talented and passionate workforce who believe in it and wouldn't want to work for anyone else no matter how much money was on the table.
Desk-pilot
was just reading through this forum ad saw this post from desk-pilot- im BA cabin crew & reading this made me extremely proud. i am happy 2 work for BA & no im not one of the pre-97 employees on massive salary basic- im 21-moved 2 london 2 work for a company i have always looked up 2 & now i feel extremely proud & work my arse off- with a positive attitude, high moral, good sense of humour- to help keep BA succesfull- its people like myself & desk-pilot who keep spirits high when every1 else just has total sh** to say! thanks.