BA still "Too Expensive to Run"5000 jobs to go ???
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I agree with WWW
BA may have been innovative in the past, but not now. Even if they are innovative in areas of product, they simply will never have the balls to really confront some of the core issues.
Look at their ground handling costs and staffing levels. Look at some of the union agreements in place. How many hours "work" does a typical BA Despatcher in LGW work compared with those of a 3rd party handling agent? How many of those Despatchers are on out-dated contracts at ridiculously high salaries? These costs are astronomical for a short-haul operation.
Look at the overhead costs for basics such as yield control. How many staff does the European short-haul network take to yield manage due to the complexities of the fare structures and lack of automation. Compare that with the lo-cos. Look at the lack of attention to detail in the way some of the european routes are yield managed. It simply demonstrates that BA do not have the attention to detail, or intricate knowledge of the specific markets, that the franchises used to have, nor that the lo-cos have today.
5000 staff may go, with a reduction in services no doubt also involved. Entrenchment back to LHR with further withdrawal out of LGW? More slots available for the lo-cos to make further inroads?
BA need to confront the core issues if they want to save the company. Have they got the guts to do it?
BA may have been innovative in the past, but not now. Even if they are innovative in areas of product, they simply will never have the balls to really confront some of the core issues.
Look at their ground handling costs and staffing levels. Look at some of the union agreements in place. How many hours "work" does a typical BA Despatcher in LGW work compared with those of a 3rd party handling agent? How many of those Despatchers are on out-dated contracts at ridiculously high salaries? These costs are astronomical for a short-haul operation.
Look at the overhead costs for basics such as yield control. How many staff does the European short-haul network take to yield manage due to the complexities of the fare structures and lack of automation. Compare that with the lo-cos. Look at the lack of attention to detail in the way some of the european routes are yield managed. It simply demonstrates that BA do not have the attention to detail, or intricate knowledge of the specific markets, that the franchises used to have, nor that the lo-cos have today.
5000 staff may go, with a reduction in services no doubt also involved. Entrenchment back to LHR with further withdrawal out of LGW? More slots available for the lo-cos to make further inroads?
BA need to confront the core issues if they want to save the company. Have they got the guts to do it?
Controversial, moi?
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Agreed with M mouse who has a good handle on many BA problems as do many others. However, as you state many issues have gone on for the last 5, 10 and 20 years. A bit like the the government each business plan has done little to address the costly problems at Flight Crew or ramp worker level. Successive groups of management have ignored the problems and by default have encouraged 'custom and practise'.
One of the main issues now is how to cut costs and achieve them. I feel that there will be considerable problems reducing staffing costs at LHR / LGW. More likely the regions will be required to make large cuts with the likelyhood of MAN, GLA or EDI and others being all outsourced and treated as GHA stations.
Possibly BA World Cargo is also at risk as there are several players waiting to take this on.
Another issue is outsourcing of LHR / LGW ramp handling but I fail to see any company larger enough or foolish enough to tender for what amounts to the problems encountered at 'Railtrack' in operating such a large operation in cramped conditions.
Outsourcing has ocurred in Europe with little or no direct BA representation at many destinations already planned, but once again this has been how things have been done by others in Euroland for a long time.
411 Some of your sugestions are a bit strong in many ways you make relevant points but I fear in addition to casting out the baby and the water, you wish to break the bath as well. My conclusion is that there far less monies to be made in this business than people think present company accepted.
One of the main issues now is how to cut costs and achieve them. I feel that there will be considerable problems reducing staffing costs at LHR / LGW. More likely the regions will be required to make large cuts with the likelyhood of MAN, GLA or EDI and others being all outsourced and treated as GHA stations.
Possibly BA World Cargo is also at risk as there are several players waiting to take this on.
Another issue is outsourcing of LHR / LGW ramp handling but I fail to see any company larger enough or foolish enough to tender for what amounts to the problems encountered at 'Railtrack' in operating such a large operation in cramped conditions.
Outsourcing has ocurred in Europe with little or no direct BA representation at many destinations already planned, but once again this has been how things have been done by others in Euroland for a long time.
411 Some of your sugestions are a bit strong in many ways you make relevant points but I fear in addition to casting out the baby and the water, you wish to break the bath as well. My conclusion is that there far less monies to be made in this business than people think present company accepted.
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RRAAMJET,
Several of the posts after my last above set out what is wrong with BA...from a few who indeed work there.
High cost of living near LHR does not just affect pilots, ground staff have exactly the same problem, and have to report for duty there far more than flight deck crew, especially the long haul guys.
In a way, BA is a victim of past glories (Imperial Airways, BOAC, BEA) and unfortunately have become very topheavy in the middle management department.
Somethings gotta give, and a good place to start would be salary reductions, shared equally in all departments...especially TOP management.
For them...it goes triple, at least.
The realities of business dictate cost reduction measures.
If BA disappears, imagine how happy the folks at BM would be...not to mention VS.
Several of the posts after my last above set out what is wrong with BA...from a few who indeed work there.
High cost of living near LHR does not just affect pilots, ground staff have exactly the same problem, and have to report for duty there far more than flight deck crew, especially the long haul guys.
In a way, BA is a victim of past glories (Imperial Airways, BOAC, BEA) and unfortunately have become very topheavy in the middle management department.
Somethings gotta give, and a good place to start would be salary reductions, shared equally in all departments...especially TOP management.
For them...it goes triple, at least.
The realities of business dictate cost reduction measures.
If BA disappears, imagine how happy the folks at BM would be...not to mention VS.
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Absolutely correct, 411A, but as I have never been a Ramp worker or Cabin Crew for BA, or an accountant for them, I don't pretend to lecture on the solution or espouse firing the lot of them.... 
It's called politeness.
It's called politeness.
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When is Ba going to sharpen up its management.
Cut it down and make them take a pay cut.
Ba is an inverted pyramid with far too many pen pushers.
Slice at the top would save a fortune!
Cut out the cocktail party broad room hangers on!
Cut it down and make them take a pay cut.
Ba is an inverted pyramid with far too many pen pushers.
Slice at the top would save a fortune!
Cut out the cocktail party broad room hangers on!
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M Mouse
No there is't. Administration does not offer the same provisions as chapter 11.
Ask any US company who have been attacked by 'competitors' using chapter 11 to reduce their overheads and they will tell you in language rather more forceful than I use here. In fact, some US commentators regard chapter 11 as verging on the anti competitive.
Er......yes there is!
Ask any US company who have been attacked by 'competitors' using chapter 11 to reduce their overheads and they will tell you in language rather more forceful than I use here. In fact, some US commentators regard chapter 11 as verging on the anti competitive.
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Working for the 2nd british longhaul carrier out LHR, I must say BA as a airline is envied by most but cannot see anyone wanting to get into the pickle that they have got themselves into due to poor management.
VS probably pay cabin crew 50% of what BA do, but come to recruitment time the hopefuls queue runs around the block, as I am sure it does for BA too.
Cabin crew serve for an average of 4 years with VS and infinity for bA, which in my opinion is just where VS wants it. You get fresh young faces all the time eager to please the passenger. With BA you get a cabin crew member who has been there since time began and have set in there ways unable to leave because where else would you get so much for so little "nowhere".
In the old days if you wanted to be cabin crew you got your salary no matter you destination. So how is it that BA pay suppliments for travelling to, for example Delhi, these are on top of your allowance. If you want to be crew you have to take the rough with the smooth.
Sorry for crew bashing but its just a example of how the company has got it so wrong, a fair rate of pay for a fair job.
Engineers/pilots who hold the passengers lives in there hands deserve far more money than what they get. Both these jobs are proffesional, so why do BA pay less to new recruits in this field.
Never mind when it all finally winds up which it will if not corrected, then someone will say "if only we had the balls to take on the CC unions" but then it will be too late.
VS probably pay cabin crew 50% of what BA do, but come to recruitment time the hopefuls queue runs around the block, as I am sure it does for BA too.
Cabin crew serve for an average of 4 years with VS and infinity for bA, which in my opinion is just where VS wants it. You get fresh young faces all the time eager to please the passenger. With BA you get a cabin crew member who has been there since time began and have set in there ways unable to leave because where else would you get so much for so little "nowhere".
In the old days if you wanted to be cabin crew you got your salary no matter you destination. So how is it that BA pay suppliments for travelling to, for example Delhi, these are on top of your allowance. If you want to be crew you have to take the rough with the smooth.
Sorry for crew bashing but its just a example of how the company has got it so wrong, a fair rate of pay for a fair job.
Engineers/pilots who hold the passengers lives in there hands deserve far more money than what they get. Both these jobs are proffesional, so why do BA pay less to new recruits in this field.
Never mind when it all finally winds up which it will if not corrected, then someone will say "if only we had the balls to take on the CC unions" but then it will be too late.
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Working for B.A I feel that a reduction in certain salarys,incl management,flight/cabin crew, is a must.They earn very good coin and they seem to be the only areas at present that havent been reduced as much as other departments.why cant htey take a packed lunch to work for starters,htat would save some pennies,the eat better in the flight deck on flight than the punters sitting in the cabin!!!!!!!!!!.,and as for the chap who posted previous about flying his 197 sectors in 20 years!!!,wake up mate your costing the airline thousands,and get a real job.
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PeePeerune,
You're obviously not a professional pilot, so what are you doing on this forum? It's for pilots to share opinions, and information. It's not for people like you to tell us we shouldn't be fed at work, and we earn too much. We'll ground the flight and take an hour for lunch in mid-atlantic shall we? Your sort of post is little short of pathetic.
:errr..incorrect, the site is for professional pilots as well as the dozens of other professional groupings associated with aviaition. Pax and those with a interest in aviation also welcome to post.
We're at the sharp end, actually earning revenue for the airline. Please enlighten me as to how you add to the bottom line?
We have responsibility for peoples lives, as do the engineers, and cabin crew, not piles of paper.
BA really does need to get it's ideas straight, and most pilots are wedded to BA, not like you're average IT/management type who does the same job whether at BA, BT, BP, BBC, BAT . . .
I'll do everything I can to turn this airline round, and I only wish all my colleagues felt the same way.
I hope the day will soon come when all staff adopt an attitude along the line of "ask not what BA can do for you, but what you can do to make this a successful airline again"
Right, I'm off to make my packed lunch for tomorrow . . .
:rolleyes
You're obviously not a professional pilot, so what are you doing on this forum? It's for pilots to share opinions, and information. It's not for people like you to tell us we shouldn't be fed at work, and we earn too much. We'll ground the flight and take an hour for lunch in mid-atlantic shall we? Your sort of post is little short of pathetic.
:errr..incorrect, the site is for professional pilots as well as the dozens of other professional groupings associated with aviaition. Pax and those with a interest in aviation also welcome to post.
We're at the sharp end, actually earning revenue for the airline. Please enlighten me as to how you add to the bottom line?
We have responsibility for peoples lives, as do the engineers, and cabin crew, not piles of paper.
BA really does need to get it's ideas straight, and most pilots are wedded to BA, not like you're average IT/management type who does the same job whether at BA, BT, BP, BBC, BAT . . .
I'll do everything I can to turn this airline round, and I only wish all my colleagues felt the same way.
I hope the day will soon come when all staff adopt an attitude along the line of "ask not what BA can do for you, but what you can do to make this a successful airline again"
Right, I'm off to make my packed lunch for tomorrow . . .
:rolleyes
Last edited by Hawk; 2nd Jan 2004 at 23:16.
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As usual when the subject of BA comes up there are always people with clever and instant answer to what must be a very complicated problem, but "mimi mums" yours must be the most pompous reply I have ever seen, and it is attitudes like that which get aircrew a bad name. People always think that the problem lies with some other group and never with them.
All this rubbish about responsibility for other people's lives. I would accept this, but I think you have forgotten that you are on the same aircraft and so if you protect yourself then you protect the passengers, it is that simply.
As for your comments on paper pushers, well how do you think the aircraft [your responsibility ] get to the gate in a safe and legal manner. It sure has nothing to do with pilots but with engineers and an awful lot of vital paper pushers in stores , production, and planning depts,aswell as many more
How do your passengers { for whom you are soley responsible} get to the aircraft. Again nothing to do with pilots,but again due to a lot of paper pushers in the various sales and pax handling departments.
Remember an airline relies on all departments delivering their product on time and within budget, and aircrew should remember that they are just the visible tip of a very big pyramid, and that they earn no revenue on their own
Regards Brit 312 { 38 years with BOAC /British Airways }
All this rubbish about responsibility for other people's lives. I would accept this, but I think you have forgotten that you are on the same aircraft and so if you protect yourself then you protect the passengers, it is that simply.
As for your comments on paper pushers, well how do you think the aircraft [your responsibility ] get to the gate in a safe and legal manner. It sure has nothing to do with pilots but with engineers and an awful lot of vital paper pushers in stores , production, and planning depts,aswell as many more
How do your passengers { for whom you are soley responsible} get to the aircraft. Again nothing to do with pilots,but again due to a lot of paper pushers in the various sales and pax handling departments.
Remember an airline relies on all departments delivering their product on time and within budget, and aircrew should remember that they are just the visible tip of a very big pyramid, and that they earn no revenue on their own
Regards Brit 312 { 38 years with BOAC /British Airways }
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the eat better in the flight deck on flight than the punters sitting in the cabin
as for the chap who posted previous about flying his 197 sectors in 20 years
Controversial, moi?
why cant htey take a packed lunch to work for starters,htat would save some pennies,the eat better in the flight deck on flight than the punters sitting in the cabin!!!!!!!!!!.,
I will leave the rest of your risible posting to others to argue with but if you really believe the quotation above you do not have a clue what you are talking about.
It may seem small in the scheme of things but 90% of crew food is comparable with pig swill.
Frankly I would prefer the pilots flying ME safely from A to B to be the best fed people on the aircraft but that would cost money.
I avoid crew food wherever possible but unfortunately, sometimes being airborne for 12+ hours, that is not always possible.
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Cabin crew at BA have been pruned down as far as they can be, without going self service. That also goes for our flight crew colleagues, I can only speak for LGW EF, but our flight crew are doing many many 4 sector days, more than they ever have in the past.
The problem really does lie, with the office based staff...many of whom do a sterling job, but there is also many we could do without. For example we have a product department at LGW, which is responsible for implementing new service procedures, trailling new products etc etc...and a much needed and required department. But we also have a similar department around the M25 at LHR....WHY....we are the same company, offering the same service from both LGW and LHR....but we have TWO product departments.
That is just one of many examples that i could give...BA I feel is now waking up to the fact that our colleagues with the LCC's do a great job, with much less people!
The problem really does lie, with the office based staff...many of whom do a sterling job, but there is also many we could do without. For example we have a product department at LGW, which is responsible for implementing new service procedures, trailling new products etc etc...and a much needed and required department. But we also have a similar department around the M25 at LHR....WHY....we are the same company, offering the same service from both LGW and LHR....but we have TWO product departments.
That is just one of many examples that i could give...BA I feel is now waking up to the fact that our colleagues with the LCC's do a great job, with much less people!
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FACT from a management briefing last week there's still 400 ground managers on gardening leave on full pay from last time.
We've got big problems and the sooner the TGWU and BASSA realise this the better.The company aren't bluffing this time.
NN
We've got big problems and the sooner the TGWU and BASSA realise this the better.The company aren't bluffing this time.
NN
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411a I never cease to marvel at your posts. You just dont know what you are talking about.
If you implement a 20% pilot pay cut at BA, guess what will happen?
The airline will stop. It will stop because the new blood in the pilot workforce will go to the low cost airlines who pay.......more, or it will leave to other EU carriers who do pay the going rate. Not, of course, that salaries on our side of the pond have ever got anywhere near the levels of the majors in the USA, where I presume you earn your corn. Must be fun lecturing us about high pay though: bit like talking with your mouth full, however.
Further to that, we here in the UK (where I take it that you dont live) are enjoying something approaching full employment and a property boom, particularly in West London where, you may recall, our airport is.
If you were to see your dream come true, I also predict that many older pilots will retire early or do something else. (Where are the legions of experienced and trained replacements who will be acceptable to BA's insurers?). There are, quite simply, other things to do to make a living that dont involve being endlessly blamed for the failings of others.
Frontline staff throughout BA have got to the stage where we are all tired of seeing a magnificent airline employing thousands of dedicated people in EVERY area of the business dragged down by the debts run up by Bob Ay@ling, who, with his management team, (many of whom are still in place), bought the wrong aircraft at the wrong time configured for the wrong market and painted them in a woeful, customer-alienating tail job.
£4.8 BILLION of debt is BA's primary problem, not the endless staff issues you cite. We will cure them, but in doing so one has to realise that there are alternative avenues of employment for many of BA's staff than endlessly listening to a management make ever more excuses for its own errors of strategy and timing whist being unable to resolve basic issues surrounding the delivery of a workable full-service product.
If you charge in like a bull in a china shop as you suggest, BA wont exist any more Great, I here you say, but the lo costers dont want to run an integrated international network. That is not their business model, so they wont replace us. And if we fail London's commercial life, NATS, the CAA and BAA are finished too.
Somehow, I just dont think that this will happen. AS others in this thread have observed, we are fighting back with market leading innovation and a sense of what we can be. Ploys like yours guarantee failure. Perhaps thats your real motive. How is your start-up airline coming along?
If you implement a 20% pilot pay cut at BA, guess what will happen?
The airline will stop. It will stop because the new blood in the pilot workforce will go to the low cost airlines who pay.......more, or it will leave to other EU carriers who do pay the going rate. Not, of course, that salaries on our side of the pond have ever got anywhere near the levels of the majors in the USA, where I presume you earn your corn. Must be fun lecturing us about high pay though: bit like talking with your mouth full, however.
Further to that, we here in the UK (where I take it that you dont live) are enjoying something approaching full employment and a property boom, particularly in West London where, you may recall, our airport is.
If you were to see your dream come true, I also predict that many older pilots will retire early or do something else. (Where are the legions of experienced and trained replacements who will be acceptable to BA's insurers?). There are, quite simply, other things to do to make a living that dont involve being endlessly blamed for the failings of others.
Frontline staff throughout BA have got to the stage where we are all tired of seeing a magnificent airline employing thousands of dedicated people in EVERY area of the business dragged down by the debts run up by Bob Ay@ling, who, with his management team, (many of whom are still in place), bought the wrong aircraft at the wrong time configured for the wrong market and painted them in a woeful, customer-alienating tail job.
£4.8 BILLION of debt is BA's primary problem, not the endless staff issues you cite. We will cure them, but in doing so one has to realise that there are alternative avenues of employment for many of BA's staff than endlessly listening to a management make ever more excuses for its own errors of strategy and timing whist being unable to resolve basic issues surrounding the delivery of a workable full-service product.
If you charge in like a bull in a china shop as you suggest, BA wont exist any more Great, I here you say, but the lo costers dont want to run an integrated international network. That is not their business model, so they wont replace us. And if we fail London's commercial life, NATS, the CAA and BAA are finished too.
Somehow, I just dont think that this will happen. AS others in this thread have observed, we are fighting back with market leading innovation and a sense of what we can be. Ploys like yours guarantee failure. Perhaps thats your real motive. How is your start-up airline coming along?
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Very well, thanks loaded1, for your concern.
Replacement for BA...already in the wings, BM and VS will take up the slack, make no mistake.
Sir Richard must be laughing up his sleeve, Sir Michael as well
Replacement for BA...already in the wings, BM and VS will take up the slack, make no mistake.
Sir Richard must be laughing up his sleeve, Sir Michael as well
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Cabin crew at BA have been pruned down as far as they can be, without going self service
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Andy Pandy,
that might be two and a half hours after take off on a fourteen hour tour of duty with an evening departure.
Given the cummulative effects of jet lag and sleep deprivation Long haul cabin crew get rest when they can. Not necessarily when they want, or need it.
Had it ever occured to you that they might "just" be human beings?
I thought not.
that might be two and a half hours after take off on a fourteen hour tour of duty with an evening departure.
Given the cummulative effects of jet lag and sleep deprivation Long haul cabin crew get rest when they can. Not necessarily when they want, or need it.
Had it ever occured to you that they might "just" be human beings?
I thought not.