BA still "Too Expensive to Run"5000 jobs to go ???
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London
Age: 40
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the replies everyone. At least I don't have to worry about my cabin crew job now. 
Well, I left Australia for the UK cause all I wanna do is fly, and I should have started training with QF almost a year ago now, but have been on hold for a year with the downturn in the industry etc. Besides, a change is good, and I love London!! (Not looking forward to leaving my 30 degree weather for your 6 degree weather though!)
Well, I left Australia for the UK cause all I wanna do is fly, and I should have started training with QF almost a year ago now, but have been on hold for a year with the downturn in the industry etc. Besides, a change is good, and I love London!!
(Not looking forward to leaving my 30 degree weather for your 6 degree weather though!)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Desk-pilot,
Agree with much of your post but some of your comments about low cost carriers are way off the mark. Are you referring to Ryanair? Sounds like it to me. I work for Easy and I fly brand new aircraft to major airports. I don't think the public have the perception that they are herded on to filthy aircraft when they walk down the airbridge to a brand new 737 or Airbus. Is this the perception of the low cost carriers that the marketing people in BA have? Surely not......
The travelling public are not stupid and they tend these days to vote with their wallet (I'm talking about Europe only here). BA have fought back with lower fares but there is no point in low fares if the yield doesn't pay the bills. I travel on BA as a customer fairly regularly and it is good - nice aircraft & crew and good service. The problem is not the product - it's the cost to BA of providing it. The Chief Exec has got probably one of the most difficult jobs in the industry - restructuring a huge company while keeping the Heathrow unions happy. I am sure he knows exactly what needs to be done but will he get away with it and if so at what cost to the company? A great airline at the end of the day though.
Agree with much of your post but some of your comments about low cost carriers are way off the mark. Are you referring to Ryanair? Sounds like it to me. I work for Easy and I fly brand new aircraft to major airports. I don't think the public have the perception that they are herded on to filthy aircraft when they walk down the airbridge to a brand new 737 or Airbus. Is this the perception of the low cost carriers that the marketing people in BA have? Surely not......
The travelling public are not stupid and they tend these days to vote with their wallet (I'm talking about Europe only here). BA have fought back with lower fares but there is no point in low fares if the yield doesn't pay the bills. I travel on BA as a customer fairly regularly and it is good - nice aircraft & crew and good service. The problem is not the product - it's the cost to BA of providing it. The Chief Exec has got probably one of the most difficult jobs in the industry - restructuring a huge company while keeping the Heathrow unions happy. I am sure he knows exactly what needs to be done but will he get away with it and if so at what cost to the company? A great airline at the end of the day though.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well 411a, if BMI and Virgin can replace us the very best of luck to them. I think you'll find that there is a difference in scale that they would find hard to bridge. I also believe that as the shortage of route- experienced, type-rated pilots grows, (as widely predicted when the trend rate of growth of air travel is looked at), they will face cost pressures to pay something nearer to the European Airline average rate for the job.
I notice that you make no comment about the vast difference between salaries in your part of the world and over here in Europe, yet still see fit to lecture us Europeans about "pay cuts". Perhaps you volunteered 25% of your inflated American salary to your employer to prop your erstwhile company up in the good years?
Thought not.
Meanwhile, I am delighted to hear your positive report about the airline that you intend to create.
What real world evidence is there of this start-up carrier? Do you hold any route licenses, own any aeroplanes, have an operating base, own any slots, have a corporate identity, employ anyone, have an office, a web site, a phone number?
I think we should be told. BA will be there long after your dreams are dust.
I notice that you make no comment about the vast difference between salaries in your part of the world and over here in Europe, yet still see fit to lecture us Europeans about "pay cuts". Perhaps you volunteered 25% of your inflated American salary to your employer to prop your erstwhile company up in the good years?
Thought not.
Meanwhile, I am delighted to hear your positive report about the airline that you intend to create.
What real world evidence is there of this start-up carrier? Do you hold any route licenses, own any aeroplanes, have an operating base, own any slots, have a corporate identity, employ anyone, have an office, a web site, a phone number?
I think we should be told. BA will be there long after your dreams are dust.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: planet earth
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411a......andypandy
SPOT ON !!!!!
Having paid for a world traveller plus seat back to lhr from jfk, cabin attendants served a meal (breakfast) about an hour into flt, never saw them again until 1.5 hrs before landing all weary eyed fresh out of the bunks.
On the other hand Virgin Atlantic crew were there at all times should I have needed anything, and thats like for like (economy premuim)
Virgin will and deserve to rule the roost, if service is what matters.
SPOT ON !!!!!
Having paid for a world traveller plus seat back to lhr from jfk, cabin attendants served a meal (breakfast) about an hour into flt, never saw them again until 1.5 hrs before landing all weary eyed fresh out of the bunks.
On the other hand Virgin Atlantic crew were there at all times should I have needed anything, and thats like for like (economy premuim)
Virgin will and deserve to rule the roost, if service is what matters.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you do a search, loaded1, you will find the answer.
But, it will take effort on your part
Meanwhile, suspect that the employment line will go 'round the block for pilots/CC at VS if long haul routes are abandoned by BA.
Likewise for BMI.
Shorthaul not a factor, others will clean BA's plate...promptly.
Don't make the mistake to think that the 'void' will not be filled.
The guys at EAL thought the same...and many are very bitter as a result.
The future of airlines will be for those that can adapt and innovate...not BA's strong points.
Still, they might survive, IF they can cast off sufficient excess baggage.
But, it will take effort on your part
Meanwhile, suspect that the employment line will go 'round the block for pilots/CC at VS if long haul routes are abandoned by BA.
Likewise for BMI.
Shorthaul not a factor, others will clean BA's plate...promptly.
Don't make the mistake to think that the 'void' will not be filled.
The guys at EAL thought the same...and many are very bitter as a result.
The future of airlines will be for those that can adapt and innovate...not BA's strong points.
Still, they might survive, IF they can cast off sufficient excess baggage.
411a,
I very much doubt that VS would look at expanding that quick. Historically VS have cherry-picked their routes i.e they only start up high yield routes. They still are not running at pre 9/11 levels.
I very much doubt that VS would look at expanding that quick. Historically VS have cherry-picked their routes i.e they only start up high yield routes. They still are not running at pre 9/11 levels.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: London
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sevenforeseven, while I partly agree with your posting, just as one swallow doesn't make a summer, one "poor" trip with BA compared to one excellent trip with VS doesn't indicate that VS will succeed where BA have failed. I'm sure I could find posters on here who've had poor VS experiences and excellent BA ones!
Pax do sometimes have strange perceptions that are sometimes far from reality. I would propose that for most people (esp those outside of this website / industry)...
They think Ryainair and Easyjet will probably have older aircraft than (say) BA, but where are the 737-800's in the BA fleet?
They think the passenger experience at LGW for VS is excellent, but the same handling agents will also do charter flight check-in - which doesn't receive the same praise. It's the same staff!..
They blame the airlines for having no replacement aircraft when one goes tech but never make the association with their 99p ticket!
(I'm sure there are more...)
ANY of the staff from the unionised groups - representing Cabin-Crew / Flight-Crew / IT staff / Engineering / Check-in - could stop the airline from functioning, and they are ALL, in their own way, vital to the airline. It seems to me that no matter what area staff work in, the problems within the airline are always someone else's fault: usually under the generic name "management". Has anyone at BA ever said, "Yes. I think we made a mistake there"? Not (as far as I can remember) in the last 8 years!
To my mind, a bit of appreciation - when it's deserved - for the work other areas do would go a long way to mend bridges in the airline.
Pax do sometimes have strange perceptions that are sometimes far from reality. I would propose that for most people (esp those outside of this website / industry)...
They think Ryainair and Easyjet will probably have older aircraft than (say) BA, but where are the 737-800's in the BA fleet?
They think the passenger experience at LGW for VS is excellent, but the same handling agents will also do charter flight check-in - which doesn't receive the same praise. It's the same staff!..
They blame the airlines for having no replacement aircraft when one goes tech but never make the association with their 99p ticket!
(I'm sure there are more...)
ANY of the staff from the unionised groups - representing Cabin-Crew / Flight-Crew / IT staff / Engineering / Check-in - could stop the airline from functioning, and they are ALL, in their own way, vital to the airline. It seems to me that no matter what area staff work in, the problems within the airline are always someone else's fault: usually under the generic name "management". Has anyone at BA ever said, "Yes. I think we made a mistake there"? Not (as far as I can remember) in the last 8 years!
To my mind, a bit of appreciation - when it's deserved - for the work other areas do would go a long way to mend bridges in the airline.
Guest
Posts: n/a
52049er
Yes I am a customer
In fact, I am a satisfied customer.
Many people knock BA, but as a FQTV, I experience the most consistent level of service from you and still believe that you set the standards for other, especially across the North Atlantic.
Having done a couple of consulting assignments within BA, I'm well aware of some of the issues, but wish you all a successful future.
It amazes me that more Brits don't realise just what good ambassadors you are for UK plc.
Yes I am a customer
In fact, I am a satisfied customer.
Many people knock BA, but as a FQTV, I experience the most consistent level of service from you and still believe that you set the standards for other, especially across the North Atlantic.
Having done a couple of consulting assignments within BA, I'm well aware of some of the issues, but wish you all a successful future.
It amazes me that more Brits don't realise just what good ambassadors you are for UK plc.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pandy Andy,
Oh well, that is different then.
You seem to have some serious issues with cabin crew rotating through rest breaks after the first meal service has been completed and brother, "Im feelin your pain".
May I suggest that next time you fly you ask for the onboard manager and explain to him/her your issues.
Given that you are a valued airline customer with much in the way of "air travel" experience, Im sure that your views on crew rest breaks would be appreciated.
Why not advise the manager when it would suit you to have the crew take some time off.
While you are at it ask to speak with the Captain too.
You'll be horrified to hear that tech crew with a 3 or 4 pilot operation start rest break rotation at top of climb and finish minutes befor top of decent!!!
Oh well, that is different then.
You seem to have some serious issues with cabin crew rotating through rest breaks after the first meal service has been completed and brother, "Im feelin your pain".
May I suggest that next time you fly you ask for the onboard manager and explain to him/her your issues.
Given that you are a valued airline customer with much in the way of "air travel" experience, Im sure that your views on crew rest breaks would be appreciated.
Why not advise the manager when it would suit you to have the crew take some time off.
While you are at it ask to speak with the Captain too.
You'll be horrified to hear that tech crew with a 3 or 4 pilot operation start rest break rotation at top of climb and finish minutes befor top of decent!!!
Last edited by Hawk; 2nd Jan 2004 at 23:23.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: planet earth
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
left2primary
I do not think andypandy could do that because the manager (csd) is usually the first to go to the bunks and last out. You will only see him/her when it comes to giving out the landing cards.
Between that zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz zzzz
I do not think andypandy could do that because the manager (csd) is usually the first to go to the bunks and last out. You will only see him/her when it comes to giving out the landing cards.
Between that zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz zzzz
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Left2Primary
Thank you for your reply.
Your arrogant and sarcastic tone illustrates rather nicely the problem with so many BA cabin crew, if you are not BA cabin crew you do a passable impression.
When you are good you are very good but from my observations if the attitude I often (not always) experience is prevalent throughout your company you will not survive nor do you deserve too.
It is frequently the case that cabin crew rush through their duties in order to maximise their breaks. I have been travelling for many years and do talk to crew and do know what I am talking about.
Thank you for your reply.
Your arrogant and sarcastic tone illustrates rather nicely the problem with so many BA cabin crew, if you are not BA cabin crew you do a passable impression.
When you are good you are very good but from my observations if the attitude I often (not always) experience is prevalent throughout your company you will not survive nor do you deserve too.
It is frequently the case that cabin crew rush through their duties in order to maximise their breaks. I have been travelling for many years and do talk to crew and do know what I am talking about.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Left2Primary
Just as any right thinking person would expect. The aircraft are certificated as 2 crew beasts, once it is clear that the departure has been completed and you are above any high ground, the crew complement over and above the 2 required start their break. The period between then and about 75-90 minutes before landing is shared out as rest.
By doing this, the flight crew are as alert as feasible when the landing has to be made in whatever weather pertains.
Personally, as a passenger, I would be much more concerned at the cabin crew being at half strength on a 6 hour night Altantic crossing, just so that they can get 45-60minutes bunk time at the expense of proper vigilance in the cabin.
While you are at it ask to speak with the Captain too. You'll be horrified to hear that tech crew with a 3 or 4 pilot operation start rest break rotation at top of climb and finish minutes befor top of decent!!!
By doing this, the flight crew are as alert as feasible when the landing has to be made in whatever weather pertains.
Personally, as a passenger, I would be much more concerned at the cabin crew being at half strength on a 6 hour night Altantic crossing, just so that they can get 45-60minutes bunk time at the expense of proper vigilance in the cabin.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pandy Andy,
Thanks for your reply.
With all due respect you clearly do not know what you are talking about.
Cabin crew rushing the service to maximise their rest breaks?, please.
When have you ever had a plate/tray/drink removed before you have finished with it?
As airlines strive to survive in the mess created post 9/11 many [most?] mainline carriers have reduced the number of cabin crew on board .
The market reseach carried out by the company I work for indicates that passengers don't want to sit with a tray in front of them for 2 hours which is about as long as it takes for 7 of our crew to serve dinner to 315 economy passengers.
Crew make an effort to work quickly and efficiently because a 2.5/3 hour meal service benefit no one. Except perhaps yourself.
Between services only half the crew are able to be off at any one time. If you are not being looked after to the standard you expect by the other half, well that is another issue entirely and nothing to do with rest breaks.
As I mentioned before. Long haul crew suffer from sleep deprivation and jet lag. The effects of which are cummulative. They dont have the luxury of choosing when or where to sleep so do so when they can.
If my previous post appeared arrogant I'm sorry.
My tolerance for illinformed and unbalanced comments from industry wannabee's/groupies is perhaps not what it should be.
Now,I WOULD be arrogant if I was to make illinformed comments about the work arrangements as SPECIFIC TO YOUR LINE OF WORK.
Like I said before. You dont know what you are talking about because you are on the outside looking in.
P.S. It would make your hair curl to know what happens in those bunks.
Topbunk,
so what you are saying is that there is no requirement for the cabin crew to be alert on decent and landing?
The safety department and pilots where I work would have some serious issues with that.
More illinformed nonsense from industry wannabees and groupies.
Left 2...the "industry wannabees" as you call them are as welcome to post on this thread as those employed in the industry. Hawk
Thanks for your reply.
With all due respect you clearly do not know what you are talking about.
Cabin crew rushing the service to maximise their rest breaks?, please.
When have you ever had a plate/tray/drink removed before you have finished with it?
As airlines strive to survive in the mess created post 9/11 many [most?] mainline carriers have reduced the number of cabin crew on board .
The market reseach carried out by the company I work for indicates that passengers don't want to sit with a tray in front of them for 2 hours which is about as long as it takes for 7 of our crew to serve dinner to 315 economy passengers.
Crew make an effort to work quickly and efficiently because a 2.5/3 hour meal service benefit no one. Except perhaps yourself.
Between services only half the crew are able to be off at any one time. If you are not being looked after to the standard you expect by the other half, well that is another issue entirely and nothing to do with rest breaks.
As I mentioned before. Long haul crew suffer from sleep deprivation and jet lag. The effects of which are cummulative. They dont have the luxury of choosing when or where to sleep so do so when they can.
If my previous post appeared arrogant I'm sorry.
My tolerance for illinformed and unbalanced comments from industry wannabee's/groupies is perhaps not what it should be.
Now,I WOULD be arrogant if I was to make illinformed comments about the work arrangements as SPECIFIC TO YOUR LINE OF WORK.
Like I said before. You dont know what you are talking about because you are on the outside looking in.
P.S. It would make your hair curl to know what happens in those bunks.
Topbunk,
so what you are saying is that there is no requirement for the cabin crew to be alert on decent and landing?
The safety department and pilots where I work would have some serious issues with that.
More illinformed nonsense from industry wannabees and groupies.
Left 2...the "industry wannabees" as you call them are as welcome to post on this thread as those employed in the industry. Hawk
Last edited by Hawk; 2nd Jan 2004 at 23:28.
Paxing All Over The World
loaded 1
Worst case: BA goes bankrupt. The difference in scale would be made up across the rest of the industry.
There is still a lot of spare capacity and the short haul would go to the LCCs and the other European full service carriers. Just try to imagine how long it would take LH and the rest to jump into the gap? Brit Midland and FlyBe will grab all that they can. This traffic will go to others never to return to any relaunched BA.
The long haul would be met in a variety of ways. At the beginning, VS and BD would take what they could. LH, KL, AF, SK etc. would all offer special discounts to route through their hubs. American and United would jump in wherever the desperate British govt will allow.
The govt of the day will be in one heck of a tizzy and pour govt money and time into trying to help anyone who looks vaguley like they could take up the BA mantle.
Then someone will want to relaunch a UK based carrier, picking up second hand machines and crew who are unemployed (some for the first time in their life). They will choose a name that they think will bring confidence and will want to use 'BOAC'. Think PanAm and Swiss and Brussels SN, to confirm that people think that using old names is a good idea.
In the meantime, BD and VS will have changed tactics. Currently, they do not compete against each other as they have a common competitor. Either they will team up together properly - or be at each other's throats. Either way, more services will be oferred to the public.
After a couple of years, it will settle down and the readjustment will have occurred. Many folks will have lost their jobs and others will be doing the same job for less money, some will be in the airline industry for the first time. The waters will close over the old BA and it will have gone.
That is not what I want to see, I continue to say that BA is a fine airline on which to be a passenger (as my PPRuNe name states) but providing a good passenger experience is not enough and what I have described could easily happen.
No one likes change and I have been through redundancy and unemployment and the rest but change there has to be. The airline world knows that another major European carrier has to go. The AF/KL merger will not bring about the reduction is capacity and costs that it should and so they are a high contender for the next failure but that is by no means sure.
... if BMI and Virgin can replace us the very best of luck to them. I think you'll find that there is a difference in scale that they would find hard to bridge.
There is still a lot of spare capacity and the short haul would go to the LCCs and the other European full service carriers. Just try to imagine how long it would take LH and the rest to jump into the gap? Brit Midland and FlyBe will grab all that they can. This traffic will go to others never to return to any relaunched BA.
The long haul would be met in a variety of ways. At the beginning, VS and BD would take what they could. LH, KL, AF, SK etc. would all offer special discounts to route through their hubs. American and United would jump in wherever the desperate British govt will allow.
The govt of the day will be in one heck of a tizzy and pour govt money and time into trying to help anyone who looks vaguley like they could take up the BA mantle.
Then someone will want to relaunch a UK based carrier, picking up second hand machines and crew who are unemployed (some for the first time in their life). They will choose a name that they think will bring confidence and will want to use 'BOAC'. Think PanAm and Swiss and Brussels SN, to confirm that people think that using old names is a good idea.
In the meantime, BD and VS will have changed tactics. Currently, they do not compete against each other as they have a common competitor. Either they will team up together properly - or be at each other's throats. Either way, more services will be oferred to the public.
After a couple of years, it will settle down and the readjustment will have occurred. Many folks will have lost their jobs and others will be doing the same job for less money, some will be in the airline industry for the first time. The waters will close over the old BA and it will have gone.
That is not what I want to see, I continue to say that BA is a fine airline on which to be a passenger (as my PPRuNe name states) but providing a good passenger experience is not enough and what I have described could easily happen.
No one likes change and I have been through redundancy and unemployment and the rest but change there has to be. The airline world knows that another major European carrier has to go. The AF/KL merger will not bring about the reduction is capacity and costs that it should and so they are a high contender for the next failure but that is by no means sure.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: the old shed next to the runway...
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow!! (What a thread!!)
Whilst I don’t agree with what the Pilots & Cabin crew take home every month, you cant blame them, (if you won the lottery - would you turn it down?)! The company has got it self in this mess by agreeing too these terms.
A 2% pay cut across the board, along with an increase in pension contributions, if it would save my job is a good idea - but it doesn’t address the problem! There are too many level's of management!! This problem was recently addressed in the UK post office, where they sacked 3,000 managers...
The letter, which was recently sent to BA staff - was a warning! Many people in BA, have not been in the situation whereby the airline has gone bust (I have) and this shows now that difficult times are ahead..
Whilst I don’t agree with what the Pilots & Cabin crew take home every month, you cant blame them, (if you won the lottery - would you turn it down?)! The company has got it self in this mess by agreeing too these terms.
A 2% pay cut across the board, along with an increase in pension contributions, if it would save my job is a good idea - but it doesn’t address the problem! There are too many level's of management!! This problem was recently addressed in the UK post office, where they sacked 3,000 managers...
The letter, which was recently sent to BA staff - was a warning! Many people in BA, have not been in the situation whereby the airline has gone bust (I have) and this shows now that difficult times are ahead..
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One wonders if BA desirves to survive, considering the latest from the EC regarding travel agent commissions, et al.
$8.4million fine, was the report. More 'dirty tricks'.
The upper managemant needs to be expunged, forthwith.
Would think Sir Richard is tipping the champange back about now.
When will the end come?
$8.4million fine, was the report. More 'dirty tricks'.
The upper managemant needs to be expunged, forthwith.
Would think Sir Richard is tipping the champange back about now.
When will the end come?
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A,- The European Court decision on BAs incentive payments is extraordinary. Incentives have been paid to travel agents by most airlines both in their home countries and abroad since the 1980s . It is difficult to see how they can be considered as " dirty tricks". BA is less dominant in its highly competitive market ( UK) than Air France, Lufthansa and KLM in theirs and to ask or expect BA to fight with its arms tied behind its back while UK and overseas operators alike are unrestricted in the incentives they can offer in the UK puts it at a severe disadvantage.
There has never been any proven evidence of a " dirty tricks " campaign in BA and I have never met any of its staff at any level who were aware of it or any instructions to do anything unethical. BA was always a strong competitor on product, range of destinations, frequency and , where necessary, pricing ,but thats business. As a privatised company it has had to contend with government subsidised or otherwise supported carriers around the world. One would hope that it has been aggresively competitive,- it has to be,- but thats not abuse of position.
There has never been any proven evidence of a " dirty tricks " campaign in BA and I have never met any of its staff at any level who were aware of it or any instructions to do anything unethical. BA was always a strong competitor on product, range of destinations, frequency and , where necessary, pricing ,but thats business. As a privatised company it has had to contend with government subsidised or otherwise supported carriers around the world. One would hope that it has been aggresively competitive,- it has to be,- but thats not abuse of position.
411A
More illiterate drivel from the colonies!
Personal abuse Bellerophon..and to save you volunteering english lessons to the colonies..banned from this forum for your irrelevant contribution.
Hawk
More illiterate drivel from the colonies!
- It’s management not managemant
- It’s deserves not desirves
- It’s champagne not champange
Personal abuse Bellerophon..and to save you volunteering english lessons to the colonies..banned from this forum for your irrelevant contribution.
Hawk
Last edited by Hawk; 2nd Jan 2004 at 23:54.