What The Real Problem Is At Saa
 

There are many posts on the woes of SAA, and as I have never worked for SAA or the SAAF (I was a Diensplig not a PF Konstabel in the SAP – because it paid better for my available brain power for 3 years in the early 80’s) with a lekker Klippie & Coke (that my Boet sends me) & watching the Rugby & munching on my biltong that I shot during a Moose hunt (I live in Canada now) with my two sons (Flying my own and fully paid for 206) I would like to gooi n lekker klip in die bos. But hey it’s a gossip column so hate it or love it but here goes:
We have to understand that SAA has never made money since its inception simply because it’s not held accountable to make money because the tax payers fund all the shortfalls. SAA needs one simple route to make money and that is to:
1. Level the playing field and hire people because they can do the job, not because they are American, Boers or Blacks and hold them accountable for their jobs.
2. Be absolutely 100% privately owned, not a Para State, Semi State, Quasi State or anything like that.
The level playing field is not just about “Africanization” it’s about the inherent history & philosophy of SAA since its inception. For a start it was always an Air Force old boys flying club, where you went to make better money and have all the Spoorie Advantages of never having to worry about bread in your mouth when your contract was over in the SAAF.
That’s where it got pilots from, in the pre Nat days it hired RAF / SAAF & “i.e. sworn Bloed Sappe” and after the Nats took power it hired SAAF old Boys many of them Broederbonders! Off course within its ranks it always had the “Mak Ingilse & Mak Joodse” faces for the sake of appearances.
From that philosophy came “Africanization”, they are hiring exactly in the same manner that SAA taught them to hire from, i.e. “your own kind”. They also put in the odd “Mak Wit” face in there cadet Program for the sake of appearances. Now we are playing this gigantic cry baby hullabaloo because “Africans” are so unfair. Hell they are not, we taught them, and they are for the sake of transparency and expediency doing exactly the same thing that SAA did after the Nats took power.
Fact of the matter is whether we like it or not the National Airline should never have allowed ex Air Force members in their ranks, because over the years (Second oldest airline in Africa I believe) the poor boy that actually had to pay for his license from day one and then got it after sweating blood and tears for lack of money never really had a fair playing field to enter SAA. Had we helped out the “Civvies” to fly “Civvies” we would have had two very good and different pools or groups of pilots.
Now before we get the ex SAAF contingent cry foul, fact of the matter is when you signed on the dotted line after selection you chose voluntarily to fly for your country, with excellent career prospects. But when the National Airline allowed you to finish your contract and join, the countries pilots suffered heavily because the guy that went up “through the civvy ranks” and actually had to use something called money to learn how to fly was put out of a job for many years.
Let’s thank our heavenly stars that the playing fields are now more level and let’s accept without tears that the SAAF / SAA boys had a good training background, thanks to the tax payers and can now fly for all the other great airlines, if they so choose. Let’s also acknowledge that SAA has gone the “civvy route” and had the balls to take previously disadvantaged kids that want to fly and give them a chance in a cadet scheme. The Nats never had this foresight because they had a pool thanks to the Air Force from which to choose.
So let’s make some figures and see how many ex “well known Air School” kids had wealthy enough daddies (thanks to being Captains in SAA and now other Airlines, courtesy of the SAAF and the Tax Payer) to pay for their Com / then Van & 1900 ratings so they can “pole” at a relatively young age Turbines on contract throughout the world and get time to enter a level playing field in the World’s Aviation market, not just in South Africa.
Now about me, yes I never made the SAAF selection because my mathematics were not “enough” and I never got into SAA, yes it made me very “de moer” in because I was still young and stupid. But I had a thing called brass balls and that was to beg borrow and lend money so that “Oom Colin Campbell” in Pietermaritzburg could take me under his wing in his beloved Cherokees and teach me how to pole. After that I had to write a Comm. (3 times it took me! – because I was stupid according to the SAAF and had to work while I flew). That Comm. Gave me a lowly paid job “when the market” was there so I ended up Poling Piston Pounders over angry skies for very little money.
So please grow up, get used to it, its life, it’s tough and there are very few winners. And “wannabee SAAF & SAA” kids please stop this crying game that your daddies taught you and grow up, there is a way, but it might take more years and a thing called guts. Now that the fields are level for all the population groups in South Africa, use your current opportunities and make the best of them. Trust me they are a lot better than in the 80’s as there are many more 1900’s flying on contract all over the world and very few Cessna 206’s and 310’s being poled alone on contract today.
Today I am still in Aviation, I am content, and I still fly and I make good money. The past is past and the future looks good. As I am pouring another Klippies & Coke & looking at my beautiful wife and two sons at our lovely home with its pool and braai area where I actually sleep every night I will be slaaning lekker dekking and hope to God that my two kids grow up knowing that nothing in this thing called life comes easy and sometimes you might have to work for it, whatever your race may be.

couldn't have said it better myself. Specially the SAAF bits.
Have a klippes & coke on me.:ok:

By the sounds of it I think SAT BOSS has had one too many Klippies and Coke!

Still remember the days of 1 liter of Brandy 2 liters of Coke and a 3 Liter Cortina!!!:ok:

The dudes from Brakpan will remember that with fond memories:}

Get over it.

I spent 8 years in the SAAF. Paid for my own Comm. licence that I did after hours.(passed all subjects first time)

Paid for my own ALTP that I did after hours. (passed all first time)

Did my selections with SAA 12 years ago - was put on the famed short list and had to wait. Again 9 years ago................

I've seen many SAA captain's sons & daughters get in with only a comm.lic. and MANY darker skinned and fairer sexed ones as well.

And today I'm glad that I'm not there to see the cookie crumble...........

:D:D:DSAT BOSS:ok::ok::ok:

Well said old chap.

Do you need ice at this time of the year with the KLIPPIES and COKE. Enjoyed your piece but don't know if everyone will. This debate of SAAF and CIVVIES will go on forever. I think this is also the case at COMAIR too. I was not AIR FORCE enough there either. :=:=:=

Enjoy the nightstops at home every night and keep the wings level

CJ750

Life after SAA & SAAF
 

Guys ! There is life after and without SAA. Best of luck to everyone endeavouring on a new career.

SAA SELECTIONS @ Present
 

:mad: kn reg ja! Great to see a sensible post, but then you can understand sense becasue seems that Sat_Boss had to pay for what he has.

Shame on all the :{ babies .... and the moonlighters that are still eating into the GA market ....

Interesting I was wondering if we can post the number and maybe more info on all the SAA Captains "kids" that got in with only a Comm. It will be very :O and the rest of the community can ;) and say well how are those selections really conducted?

Are they :ok: or are they a bit := and and and and ...... maybe a committee is called for, time to Africanize this lot and get on with it :}:}:}

Oops I have been bombed off a long time ago, lost my medical so I have no more milk to spill or cry over

Do I have this correctly?

This thread is a whinge because you were not good enough to get into the SAAF and because of that could not get into SAA?

So I guess SAA's troubles are due to the fact that you could not do math and weren't at SAA to keep the arrogant SAA captains from earning huge salaries.......

Interesting logic.

Logic seems pretty sound to me. History on hiring profile thru the ages is about right too.

But looking backwards is not gonna solve SAA's problems. Right size it and list.

SAT_BOSS, so you reckon SAA are in trouble just because you did not manage to get in to the comapny?

Sounds more like sour grapes to me!

There seems to be a train of thought running through all of these threads.

If you are IN SAA, its your god given right to ride on the tax payers coat tails and bugger the rest of the industry.

If you want to see a healthy airline industry and your NOT IN SAA, its all sour grapes and ur an idiot.

Have I about summed it up or have I missed something?

I have realised, over the years of Pprune-ing, that an SAA pilot is, according to those who are not in SAA, an overpaid, underworked recipient of some kind of nepotism, who, if not working for SAA would be incapable of holding down a "real" job, mainly because he battles to tie his own shoelaces in the morning.

At the same time, many of the people most interested in SAA, what it pays it's pilots, and how much money it loses, are normally people who do not work for SAA, some have tried to get in, but were turned down (for any of a myriad of reasons), others never even tried, others feel that SAA was responsible for the closures of Sunair, Pheonix, Bopair etc.

It stikes me that the people who should be worrying about SAA, are having to take flak from a bunch of unsuccessful wannabes, and other assorted no-hopers.

So I will enjoy watching the vitirol which shall follow this posting, for it is time to worry about only what you can influence, and I know that I cannot influence the minds of those whose psyche bears a grudge.

YIP...I think I got it about right. The great thing is they NEVER fail to disappoint.

Skyvan,well f:mad:ing said.
It amazes me how the biggest SAA bashers on the African Aviation forum are people that have bailed on SA and live overseas. Avi8tor, why are you and your cronies so worried about whats going on here? Are you trying to justify your decision?

Most of us who choose to stay will never begrudge those that want to leave. Everybody has their reasons. But when you leave you give up your right to sit in the sand and throw darts at your old country.YOU'VE LEFT, MOVE ON ALREADY!!!

Dont your regions have their own forums? Go stir s:mad:t there.

And just because we earn a living somewhere else, that give me NO right as SAA's only shareholder, as I am still a taxpayer and a voter, to voice an opinion?

The fact that you see yourself as representing the whole nation, I find somewhat arrogant. And that to criticize how the state controlled loss maker is in someway unpatriotic?
You champs fail to see is outside your own little self interest. And the fact that SAA is able to totally distort the rest of the industry, is totally lost on you.

We live in a world of globalization. You work for a largely piss pot, state controlled, african loss maker. In a country that has huge social and econonomic challanges coupled with mass unemployment. There is NO shortage of pilots in SA, plenty waiting for your jobs at 1/2 the money.

Sorry friend, barking at the critics wont change the facts. This is not about anti SAA, its about being PRO a healthy aviation industry. Level the playing field, cut the purse strings, let the market decide.

So let me get this straight. You earn your wage in Dubai, but still live in SA. Time to come clean avi8tor. Are you one of the above mentioned pilots? Trying to convince us to leave, to improve your chances. We onto you pal.

Here's a tip,proof read your CV better than your posts.

I also didn't make the SAA cut and resigned myself to the fact almost 15years ago, at the time similar thoughts of "anger" and dissapointment at the percieved favouritism welled thru me...today I am content where I am and actually pleased not to have gone the SAA way, what with all their current and still to come problems.

Greeson...when are you going to finally come and realize that SAA is not what it used to be and it is not going to be either...the end is near my friend. The conditions at SAA are only going to get worst and worst!!!

Just look all around you, look at the whole of South Africa. Do you see a trend? Are things getting better? Is crime on the decline or has it moved in to the security compounds...sorry estates? Can you even go to a shopping center and feel safe? Are any of your friends leaving for other parts of the world?

I do not think that people that have left need to bash SAA in order to reassure them selves that the right move was to leave, all you need is one newspaper, one drive from the airport.

Do you guys undergo a lobotomy when you get into SAA?

Just caught a glimpse of the CNN Sport update as I pass through SIN airport… something about a Twenty/ 20 cricket game postponed due to cable theft and no lights at the stadium? Roll on 2010 Soccer World Cup!! Excuse the pun, but “see the light guys”.

frogman and mates...I'm sure you are very content with your situation in HK, GF etc, with its own problems, weather, pollution, lack of legal recourse, expensive living conditions, etc.

But at the end of the day, those who choose to remain in SA do so at their own free choice, and thereby accept it warts an'all.

Migration of people has been occuring for centuries and its nothing new to South Africa. Many SA citizens who have the means to immigrate never the less do however, choose to stay in their home country and make it the best that it can be.

I rejoice at the fact that its people like you who actually decide to remove yourself from South Africa, as in the end, the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therfore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in.

Negative and unjustified criticism from back seat drivers like yourself add to an economical phenomen referred to as the "law of diminishing returns" . so for you to leave, in a way is for the betterment of SA society.

Good luck in whichever country you make your new home.

I'm sure you'll make it the best you can, as I will in SA.

Jetnut, how many faces do you see in the mirror when you shave in the morning?

I would like to refer you to your previous negative and critical posts on various threads on this site.........

SAA will probably survive the restructuring process and I think the pilots will lose relatively little, but I do think that this has served as a wake-up call for those who were contemplating leaving this lovely little corner of Africa.

For Avi8tor and his mates. The playing fields are as level as they will get for the foreseeable future. The other airlines knew what the conditions in SA were when they started operating here. Their pilots knew that they would operate against a state supported airline and that they would never earn SAA level salaries. Those that could not abide by that, left the country and now sit in some forsaken desert or monsoon area and chirp from the peanut gallery.

Get over it guys. SAA will not be privatised and will continue to be supported by the state, even if it uses up every cent of VAT that Avi8tor pays on his trips to SA.

This is from the LABOUR AND PUBLIC ENTERPRISES SELECT COMMITTEE
11 September 2007
SAA RESTRUCTURING: DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES BRIEFING.

Thanks Supporters!!!!
 

Many thanks to all the guys with the very positive feedback. Its still as clear as daylight to me = Minus the Math Off Course!:}
That:::
For as long as I still pay taxes in South Africa (and I do) I actually am by default a co owner of each and every one of your SAA :{ babies's asses. And for as long as that is the case I will be on the case of SAA to be accountable for my money.
See some guys actually work to get it together and others don't. That's irrelevant, what is very relevant is that for as long as I am a Tax Payer, I am a co owner, and thus by default have the right to know what you do with my money.
Nothing in life is perfect, but its pretty perfect when you had your kid fall of his bycicle, take him to the county hospital for an X Ray, 3 Stitches, Injections, Antibiotic, Tetanus and then waslk out having had to pay NADA, then its not so bad.
Heck I dont even OWN key for my garage, we would not know how to lock it ... Thanks once more guys & blessings .....

You are totally correct in both of the statements. I have said as much in many of the threads. Personally I think the restructuring will change very little.

But just because its the status quo, doesn't make it right. The point is that we have to change attitudes. Otherwise aviation is SA will remain in the dark ages.

This is also NOT a pro/anti new SA debate. Neither about 'jumping ship'.

I see NOTHING unjustified in demanding change at an airline that has wasted BILLIONS of the taxpayers money. Actually its called being a responsible citizen.

P.S. find an economics text book, chapter 1 for the definition of 'the law of diminishing returns'.

Facts
 

Somebody mentioned getting into SAA with only a comm...

The following is from SAA's website:

In order to qualify, applicants must be :-

South African citizens,
matriculated, with a pass in Mathematics or Physical Science
in possession of a valid SA Commercial Pilot’s Licence or higher with an Instrument Rating Endorsement
a valid Class 1 medical.
All applicants should have at least 1,000 hours experience which should include at least 220 hours experience on multi-engine aircraft.

I fail to see why somebody who's only got a comm shouldn't be taken by SAA.

Jetnut let me see if your theory is correct

"I rejoice at the fact that its people like you who actually decide to remove yourself from South Africa, as in the end, the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therefore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in."

So according to that statement Zimbabwe should be the best place to live in right, the zimbo's that are still living there must have the best personalties around and because the rest of the people have left Zimbabwe it is now a much better country to live in....right!!!

Jetnut , name we one thing that has gotten better in the last 5 years, apart from your security system.

You are actually completely wrong. The state is a legal person, represented in a legal sense by an elected government. It owns certain commercial ventures. You as taxpayer actually has no say except to use your vote to get your choice of government elected. You also do not get a say in how tax money is spent, again only by utilising your vote can you have any input in this process.

After you have paid your taxes as is required by law, the money ceases to be yours and belongs to the state. The same way that you don't get to tell Raymond Ackermann how to run his business after you have spent money at his enterprise.

So to sum up. Whether you like the stance of the current government regarding SAA or not, you have no say and can whinge as long as you want. I suggest you canvas a few more votes to get your personal favourite elected to government and you can then badger him, as your representative to change things at SAA.

I am no fan of the current SAA setup, but I work in an industry where we have lots of other challenges. Safety standards in Africa is on the slide and the regulator seems to be unable to tackle the problem. SAA, using their significant resources has been addressing some of these problems and are doing something to help all the pilots in this country. The have used their pilots and aircraft to get GNSS approaches and RNAV routes validated for all of us to use. They have used their commercial muscle to improve facilities at the airports they operate to, all to the advantage of those that follow. Their pilots are well trained and all of the CRM programmes in SA are based on theirs. Their pilots have maintained high operational standards despite being subjected to revolving management intent on raping the company for personal gain.

That the SAA pilots earn huge salaries in the SA context is true, but they have negotiated those salaries without resorting to strike action. If their current management was prepared to negotiate in good faith, the pilots might have had to take a paycut, but as things currently stand - SAA management is putting themselves in a position where the pilots will win the day. Unfortunately management is trying to threaten SAAPA with an empty gun, and they will fail to win significant concessions.

And Jetnut, please don't applaud this post, because I do not agree with you on anything! I have many other mates at SAA though, and I am particularly tired of the taxpayer argument.

Do you guys undergo a lobotomy when you get into SAA?
 

After you have paid your taxes as is required by law, the money ceases to be yours and belongs to the state. The same way that you don't get to tell Raymond Ackermann how to run his business after you have spent money at his enterprise.
That about sums it all up, someone pays & you have no leg to stand on ....
If Raymond Ackerman ran SAA he would have had the whole lot of you fired and the few good ones left over would have become tire cleaners!!! Raymond is actually for your information very accountable; it’s called shareholders / stock exchange and things like that.
But after being lobotomized you have to have big Government Protect you. So far SAA has done about two things right:
1. Got a Cadet Scheme going thus leveling the playing field.
2. Sorry can't do the math .... :E

Nugpot, that reply has to make the most sense I have heard in a long time. Well done. Everything you say is very true. The salary issue for the SAA pilots is also very stale now.

I take it you earn one of those salaries?

Its not about SAA pilot's salaries. If SAA could afford it, they could pay the tea girl a million rands. They cant, and SAA, top to bottom is over paid and underworked. Its broke.

I am fairly sure SAA cant use less fuel, catering is cut to the bone. SAA has entered some silly lease deals to hide its losses. SAA seems to charge market related fares. So what is left?

I still have not seen any viable arguments from any of you SAA types.

No, also didn't make the cut, but am not bitter and twisted about it. I don't begrudge them their salaries. Nugpot's right, what the government does with our taxpayer's money is the governments prerogative. If we don't like it, the people must vote in a new government. Unfortunately the average SA citizen is clueless as to the financial position of SAA.

So I guess little fingers in the govt till is OK then.....

Hey Avi8tor! You must have the best job of all judging by the amount of time you have to respond to the various threads! I mean it-I enjoy your inputs, but wish I had the time to reply like you do!!:)Keep it up.:E

LOL...I do.

Neither do I, its SAA's inability to pay them that gets me.

I find it really funny that guys complain about the government being totally useless on crime, roads, hospital etc, but see totally cool with the idea the government can run the national carrier the same way. I wonder why the double standard?

And if we dont complain about SAA, then how can we complain about anything else?

Avi8tor even though I am out of here, I am still firmly on the side of the SAA pilots.

Not one SAA pilot I have met is happy with the way things are done at SAA, the union has been fighting against those useless :mad: in management for a long time, they refuse to listen to us on account of there pig headed arrogance that lets them believe they know what the :mad: they are doing. Every SAA pilot would like the company to be a profitable suastainable organisation however when the government insists on interfearing and making SAA a social employment agency what can we do?

Are you suggesting that the pilots take a pay cut because of government interference and the total lack of accountability of any of the previous management? I think thats what DJ would like to see (you still not taking the bait DJ?) because he believes pilots are dispensable and there are 500 CV's waiting.............little does he know that even though there are 500 CV's, they may not be many people left who are qualified who want to come to SAA, the pilots run most of the flight Ops department most importaintly the training department and I know for a fact they are struggling right now converting 60 or so 747 pilots to the A340......Only DJ could explain to you how 100 new pilots are going to be trained from a training section that is already working hard.......God forbid the training pilots start leaving then we will see some fun.

Like it or not SAA is a legacy airline that has been around for a very long time (they say second in the world, although cant confirm this) we operate big aircraft and we fly around the world, the pilots deserve to be remunated as such, we are not Comair, Nationwide, 1time Kulula so please dont compare us to them. I am not sure what fleet size has to do with how much we should get paid, maybe we should look at how long the airline has been around versus how much we are paid, what that got to anything you may ask.......its taken that long for the pilots at SAA to negotiate a decent wage. Pilots are like Aircraft you need them to run an airline, I dont see SAA running off to Airbus or Boeing and demanding a cut in the lease rates.......because management :mad: up. So why must we cut the pilots salaries, the waythings are going experienced pilots are a rare comodity, Emirates (which you may know) need 500 pilots next year, 600 the following year and it continues up, they themselves dont know how they are going to crew the aircraft they are getting, Qantas needs 500 pilots....the list goes on and on, so my untrained management brain tells me that maybe you should pay your pilots well and keep them or let them go and open a whole can of worms as to how you replace them........DJ dont be short sighted on how easy it is, you may think that your experience at Mango is how it works.....not really, try talking to the Emirates recruitment people, you may get the true picture then, oh I forgot you want to make us all contractors with no pension plans..........thats fine, but go and find out how much the rest of the world is paying for contractors, why would anyone work for SAA on a contract basis when the rest of the world is offering twice the amount (and you are safe in those countries)

Suity yes they could outsource there training......at huge cost

Salaries are big at SAA I admit that, this is only a recent developement however, the pilots were paid :mad: in the past, the good salaries are due to clever negotiations and 100% representation from our union, if the local competition pilots could only stand together like SAAPA you may find things somewhat different in Comair, Nationwide, 1Time etc.

Its my understanding that SAAPA is willing to negotiate big concessions to the company, however they want assurances that it will be sustainable and that when things change the agreements revert to how they were, the company is demanding an unrealistic profit in the years following restructuring, they are in fact aiming for a target not achieved by any airline in the world that has undergone restructuring, the company is demanding a few things that are unrealisitic including stardard conditions of employment across the board........so the tea lady has as many free tickets as a Captain who has been there 35 years.........the pilots will give concesions, we are just gun shy because this company negotiates in bad faith and they have proved this time and time again.

SAA is short of pilots at the moment, that is a fact so if they start retrenching pilos you can start closing routes and shutting down fleets.....end of SAA.

Lufthansa flies E135's (or 145's) thats a small jet, I bet there pilots are paid well, you may find its just a seniority thing as to which aircraft you fly at Lufthansa.

To be honest with you Suity I dont know which way to go, that song "should I stay or should I go" comes to mind........lets just say that its up to SAA to make the move, the only reason I stay in SA is because of the Job at SAA, why else would I live in a country where I am a second class citizen, my kids are disadvantaged because of there skin colour, there is rampant crime where life means nothing, horrific corruption etc etc etc.....all this for 40+% tax on my salary

There are certainly some very interesting opinions expressed, and being everyone having iq's of a decent nature all of them have merit. :mad:t is in the eye of the beholder methinks. What i think though is the nature of SAA's competition is being ignored. They may be competing against 1time, comair etc locally, but they are in an international market which the local carriers knows very little about. Becuase of this you can never compare pilot or any other persons salary for that matter against that of the local guys. They have to compete on an international level, in terms of salaries and numbers(to be the devils advocate you are allowed 1000hrs in 365 rolling days, why not reach that??).

Pilot salaries are not the issue here. Total company HR cost is. The quetions are simple a)how does SAA salaries compare to the BA's,virgin etc of the world. b) if they are competing with the major carriers, in terms of seats per flight filled, salaries paid across board and aircraft operated, why the :mad:ck are they losing money. the reasons may be as big and obvious as SAA's pilot salaries, but those need to be adressed, what the pilots are being paid are irrelevant provided that they are competative salaries.

The staff at the other airlines could go on strike for SAA style money, but the difference here that if the airline doesnt have it, it doesnt have it. At SAA, the begging bowl comes out and the taxpayer chips in.

I see NO difference between SAA's B738's and Comair's B734's, maybe a few extra windows. Ditto with the A319.

If SAA didnt have the magic begging bowl, its staff would have been the highest paid ex employees.

Apparently the Yank consultants Seabury admitted that SAA has one of the lowest labour costs in the world. Strange that they are seeking the R638 million to come from concessions from labour then. :hmm::hmm::hmm:

I think Comair could well afford to pay better, or to back off the work load a bit, but when you see who runs Comair, what can I say, they like to get their pound of flesh. CPA need to put a new demand on the table re: salaries, or negotiate a Extra Flight Pay agreement, like SAAPA did.