The CLAN will never go for this, its not in their nature to help non-CLAN members.

Jetnut,
It is called a brain drain, and judging by statements like " the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therfore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in." you will definitely not qualify.

The majority of emigrants are in the medical field ( just visit a Doctor or hospital in Aus. or Canada) and engineers , now followed by pilots it seems.

Like frogman said, the same foundation Zimbabwe is build on.

I think that the airlines we are talking about do have "it". They will let you believe they dont however because then the money goes elsewhere and not always to the right place, how come VB has so many nice sports cars? How come Easyjet and Ryanair salaries are so good (comparitivley speaking), I just did a search.....Mango on Dec 02 JHB-DUR -JHB is R600 (approx).....Easyjet on Dec 02 LON-Edinburgh-LON is R690 (46 GBP) so the revenues are similar, the infratructure in SA and the labour must be vastly cheaper than in the UK, so where is all the money going, maybe the airlines here in SA are just honest hard working businessmen who pay what they can out of the goodness of there hearts..........I doubt it, its all numbers and risk assesment to them, they want the most profit they can get and bank on the fact that there is a pool of labour waiting to sell there first born child to get into an airline.......I dont think this is very wise, times are changing fast and these SA airlines might just realise to late, its simple maths, how many pilots are being produced vs how many pilots do you need (and I am not talking PPL)

What is the colour of the sky in your world?

Please refer to a current thread in terms and endearments. http://http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271434

"....SFO EZY on a sell your soul TRSS. About 3300 net."

And remember in the UK you need 50% of ur salary for accommodation and that would be for a cupboard with a shower in it!!!

Transport is crazy expensive and that is based on 85hrs a month. Would like to know what a SFO at SAA would clear with 20 hrs of exceedance and compare life styles?

Fluffyfan...I think they call it Credit Card Debt :}

Blue.....yours?

Had you read the posts properly you would have knoticed I was not comparing SAA salaries, I was comparing Ryanair/Easyjet to our equivalent in SA and the result is.......Ryanair and Easyjet pay much more to there crew, the whole discussion was based on your quote

What was interesting to note on that forum you kindly shared with me was BA and Virgin.....take home GBP 4000 and thats 2 years of service, Ryanair Captain takes home about GBP1700+flight pay...lets call it GBP2500.....so in summary

Virgin/BA.........GBP4000 or R56 000 (2 years service)
Ryanair Captain....GBP2500 or R37 500 (about 5 years service)

I can assure you both those amounts are higher than what a SFO at SAA is taking home with 5 years or more service.........

Yes the cost of living is much higher there but the interest rate is very small so mortgages are affordable, there is law and order, descent public schooling is available, descent free medical, public transport systems.

We are paid well at SAA, but you have to put it in the context of the country we live in and if its worth paying the pilots well to keep them or letting them go to greener pastures...........the way things are going worldwide, taking the cheap option now might just cost you later on

The posters here aren't having a go at the SAA pilots per se. What I've noticed is there are some SAA pilots who post on here who come across as very arrogant and superior, the main basis of their argument is that (1) they are correct in whatever they say and (2) the only reason others are moaning is that they are not in SAA. So they get shredded. But its not all SAA pilots. We all know people at SAA and by and large they are great guys. We are not having a go at SAA pilots.

That said, the problems still remain.

Why should SAA pilots be paid comparative rates to 'other global airlines'? If you are a lawyer in SA should you get paid the same as a lawyer in NYC? A doctor? Are there global rate scales? No. The local market determines the pay rate. SAA pilots should be paid on a par with other local pilots.

Half of SAA's fleet is domestic. Whats the diff flying a 738 for SAA or a 738 for Mango? The Mango pilots work twice as hard and get paid just over half as much. No diff flying domestic, if you're on a 737, MD, F28, etc you are doing the same job - no reason why salaries should be double. There is something to the argument that internationally we compete (if you can call it that) with other airlines, but remember they are based overseas, and have foreign networks, they are not just returning to JNB like SAA does. And if it comes to that, SAA isn't even competing healthily on that route, so all the more reason to cut costs. When SAA goes to Lagos or Libreville or Lusaka are they competing with the 'other African airlines'? If so, should they get what a 737 driver from Brazzaville gets?

Someone hit the nail on the head with the taxman stepping up to the begging bowl. The only reason why SAA pilots get paid so much is that their union pulled the wool over managements eyes, management didn't really care as it was all coming out of state coffers anyway. Bottom line is....SAA pilots are getting overpaid by local market standards because they are state-subsidised. If SAA were a private airline it would never have happened, it could not sustain such high FDC salaries. And now it's being rationalised, and costs are being cut, things have got to come into line. If negotiations fail, because SAA is technically broke, the govt has a very good case in shutting the whole airline down completely, and forming a new one immediately with the same aircraft, just a new set of staff, all being paid market related salaries and a new set of management systems.

It all boils down to this. SAA could kick out most of its pilots tomorrow (obviously not all at once) and replace them with pilots from the local pool for much less pay. You all know this is true. So the only market-related rate they should pay pilots is the local rate. It does'nt matter what some 777-driver from Hong Kong is getting. Hong Kong has nothing to do with it, SAA just lands there and comes home. Doesn’t matter who flies them, SAA just need to fly their machines from JNB to X and back safely, thats all. Endex.


Someone else responded to a gripe that pilots are getting into SAA with only a comm with " I fail to see why somebody who's only got a comm shouldn't be taken by SAA" after seeing SAA's minimum requirement is only 1000hrs and a comm on their website. Well there's the heart of the matter. Why should people with only a comm get into SAA when there are hundreds of multi-thousand-hour ATPL's who could be employed? Whether it's nepotism or affirmative action, not taking the best person for the job is what has killed (not "is busy killing") SAA. Until the airline gets the best people in the jobs it needs them to do, its never going to recover on its own. Poor staff = poor company = poor results, proven again and again.

Someone else said "I rejoice at the fact that its people like you who actually decide to remove yourself from South Africa, as in the end, the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therfore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in." Ja the people who remain are either stuck there or criminals preying on those who are stuck there or BEE elite who are bathing deep in the gravy.

Just listen to South Africa's national anthem - its just as much of a mess as the state of the nation. Three or four different tunes, dunno how many different languages, all cobbled together, hardly anyone knows the words. Its embarrassing. Anyway at least the rugby team looks good to win the world cup this time round again. Nice to have something good happening for a change.

Dear JG1
 

Shame, you really are a confused and narrow minded individual. Your answers to various posts are so far from the truth its frightening.

Yet another expat justification based on a subconscious regret stemming from the realisation of an illinformed decision to leave.

The above quote by you is based on a flawed theory, as by showing only one highly skilled individual who chooses to live and work in SA will cancel that argument.

Why is it that many world-renowned surgeons, engineers, scientists etc. still choose to live and work in SA (they're obviously stupid, or smoking pot, huh), this homegrown expertise provides for a very sustainable economy. Whereas in Dubai, HK etc. these governments need to import the skills. The fact that the UAE society consists of 80% expats should tell you something about there business ethic.

Why can't you just be happy for the people who have decided to stay behind and make SA the best they can. We are all happy for you living in a "safe", "clean" country abroad. So give us a chance too man.

As someone correctly mentioned earlier, the desert is a short term solution, so at the end of the day we all want to return. Who's then going to make sure that everyting is still as the way you left it when you do decide to come back.

I too was tempted by the glitz and shiny aeroplanes in the desert...but through introspection I decided against it....ah well time will tell whether this decision was a good one, or not.

"If negotiations fail, because SAA is technically broke, the govt has a very good case in shutting the whole airline down completely, and forming a new one immediately with the same aircraft, just a new set of staff, all being paid market related salaries and a new set of management systems."


Look out at FAJS next time around. Notice the bright orange Mango livery? This is happening already! Negotiations should be done in good faith. Clearly SAA management will not be showing any good faith in their negotiations. DJ always responded previously to set the record straight. He has been conspicuously quiet on this one!

Jetnut, I don't regret leaving SA. The modern SA is not the SA I had a childhood in and grew up in, its a totally different place. Sure, I miss the african sunsets and sunrises and the landscape....but all I have to do to justify my decision is pick up a SA newspaper.

If its not serious crime or runaway corruption its government ineptness, or another scandal where they all get away with it in the end. MP's and Ministers with criminal records, the Telecommunications Minister not far behind the Health Minister in uselessness, more renaming places, and more political infighting between people and parties whom you fund yet you will never ever have the slightest say. I even heard a radio advert on 94.7 streaming the other day advising refugees of their rights:{ Gotta say, Mugabe's done the impossible, every time we think it can't get any worse, it does!

In the aviation scene more old jets being bought or sold or painted different colours, the flag-carrier failing....eish what a great place. Going African. The jungle is closing in.

Jetnut there's a whole world out here, places which are every bit as beautiful as SA, where your kids have equal opportunities at education and employment. If they want to get ahead they don't have to find a black parasite to partner just so that they can start a business. Places where you can sleep soundly at night without fear of being beaten and killed after your wife is raped in front of you. Places where your car can break down and you have more than a 50-50 chance of survival. Where you can park your car safely without the everpresent 'Hello boss' extortion. Jetnut, there are places with sidewalks in the outside world, neat, kept sidewalks, instead of the dust and rubble the SA taxi drivers use to fly past you ruining your Sunday-afternoon polish job.

Places where, if you bend over backward to help people, like most whites in SA have done with the blacks since transformation, they respond in kind instead of always demanding more. See the light.

You ask "Why is it that many world-renowned surgeons, engineers, scientists etc. still choose to live and work in SA (they're obviously stupid, or smoking pot, huh), this homegrown expertise provides for a very sustainable economy. Whereas in Dubai, HK etc. these governments need to import the skills." Jetnut, many many many have. Why are SA hospitals in such a state? Why are there foreign contract engineers required? Ones that I know who stay in SA do so because of elderly parents whom they don't want to leave (but will leave as soon as the last one has pegged) or a wife who doesn't want to leave for family reasons. Some do want to stay, they like it there, but you do get some stoopid doctors too:p

JetNut,

On the contrary, I think it was a very well-informed decision to leave. Since you're a fellow that likes to bandy the facts about, try these for size:

I refer you to the UN Human Development Index (HDI), which ranks countries based on the usual criteria such as life expectancy, literacy, education, standard of living, etc. The countries that you love to bash for their climate, pollution, lack of legal recourse, etc (although you deny doing it) are normally the "sandpit" (see EK, EY, QR, etc) and HK.

Although the HDI does not list HK specifically, Singapore (which I'm sure you'll put in the same category) and the UAE rank 25th and 49th respectively. SA, on the other hand, finds itself in a rather lowly 121st position, wedged firmly between Equitorial Guinea and Tajikistan. You must be so proud.

For the record, I - like suitcaseman - have no intention of returning to SA in my latter years, so please don't leave the outside light on for me. You'll also note that according to that survey, with the exception of Haiti, the 30 least livable countries in the world are all in Africa. Ill-informed decision? I think not.

These days, it not 'last one to leave turn out the light', its 'last one to leave turn off the generator':}

In later years it'll be 'last one to leave blow out the candle':p

JG1 your quote
are you sure about this JG1...have you done any research or you just hoping like :mad: you are right?

Ok, then please go to the Middle East forum and post the same :mad: about Emirates......they should be paid the same as Jupiter Airlines Maybe BA should be paid the same as Ryanair, maybe United the same as "Startedyesterdaywith1Kingair Airlines"

In fact here is an idea, every time a new airline is started, and no matter who the boss is or how he has found a new way to screw the crew.....we should re-evaluate everyone else's salaries and bring them all in line with the new company

:D dont think you thought this one through bright boy

I beg to differ fluffy. In any case, even with only 5 years service, he IS a captain......

That's besides the point though. We all know that pilot salaries at SAA is not why the airline is in trouble. That reducing pilot renumeration will solve the problem is just pure fantasy.

Beg all you want, I have a small car on the car scheme (R130 000 Rand worth) that comes off my salary, and 3 others on my medical aid.
I take home less than that published above a month.......and according to suitcaseman that figure is too low
But yes fully agree.....pilots salaries never were the problem

what is it about SAA
 

that makes pilots so reluctant to leave.

Just heard that an FO handed in his resignation, and after coming to his senses, withdrew the resignation just four days later. Guess, he's not going to make that mistake again :}.

To move is a very, very big issue. Especially if you have a family. If you are young and single, it's as easy as pissing in a bucket, but when there are other people to consider, it becomes increasingly difficult. I take my hat off to those that have left, it's a bold move. I'm staying for now though, and I don't give a rats arse what others think of my decision. Emirates, et al will always be there, they are not going anywhere. If required I'll apply at a later stage. I'm not going to panic now, that's exactly what is expected of me by management.

SAA resignation withdrawal
 

The only pilot who handed in his resignation was a very junior Indian FO who had been offered a job by Qatar. He withdrew it after both his fleet Captain and the director of flight ops called him in and convinced him to do so.

Why haven't others withdrawn their resignations (17 so far) - because they are all white and the company did not call them in and ask them to stay!!!!

Fluffy... start thinking and you will, albeit very slowly, realise that Emirates hasn't got herds of local pilots clamouring at the door like SAA has. The UAE simply hasn't got a large pool of experienced local ATPL's knocking on the door to get into Emirates, so Emirates has to pay better or on a par with the other airlines it is recruiting from to attract them to the UAE. Bet you as soon as the Jupiter guys get enough experience Emirates will take them in.

And, lightie, if I had wanted any sh1t out of you, I would have squeezed your head:E

:ooh: you got me running scared JG1, but my point stands, even if we excluded Emitrates from your little scenario, which I dont think we should but ok lets do it just for fun.......what about BA? should they get the same as Eezyjet or Ryanair? what about Qantas? United? ok I will stop there

Big talk for a bullet, just have your prunes tonight and have a nice sleep Grandpa....ok

FANTASTIC post SAT_BOSS.

People, focus. The last two pages on this thread were all about who earns what and who not.

The problem at SAA is not the pilots or any of its operational employee's.

....it is not the fact that it used to be an old SAAF boy's club.

....neither is it the fact that SAA pilot salaries are not on par with the local market.

The problem with SAA is simply just K:mad:K management....from day one. It has been a place where "connected" people can make a little money from a badly controlled state department....ie, thieves stealing taxpayers' money.

The problem at present seem to be the worst management yet. We have a totally incompetent management team, lead my a photocopier salesman of the early nineties, who is totally in over his head.

Combined with this total lack of leadership, is corruption in the form of BEE contracts. BEE companies have been paid for services rendered but are yet to render the service.

Hi SAASFO
 

Just to set the record straight. All employees submitting a letter of resignation are given a 2 week "cooling off" period in which resignations may be rescinded. Due to personal circumstances at the time, I decided to exercise that option within the window.

It has nothing to do with race, or that I'm "indian". Hopefully this will clear any misconceptions and reduce animosity.

All pilots at SAA are treated equally. And one has to only look at pilots who have been dismissed in the past, and you will note that race has played no role whatsover in that decision, only competence.

Dont TUNE Bru:DObviously your a fantasic Airbus pilot. I don`t know who my fleet Captain is:ok:Well done, did they offer you a COMMAND:E to stay? Looks like they may need a few pilots to stay, now that EK are looking at SAA for crew. Good luck, and fly the flag high:eek:

Been very quiet in Dubai for the last few years, but suddenly my phone is starting to ring a lot with guys "making enquiries". A few have gone further. The sign is there. Read it anyway you like.

JuniorFO, nobody is having a go at you, and you are certainly the calibre of pilot that SAA should be trying to retain, but the fact is that you were personally contacted by two SAA flight ops managers, but no white pilots were contacted.

Additionally, SAA's negoatiators have stated to SAAPA that if there are retrenchments, they would exclude DG pilots, meaning that their original intention has been to try and reduce the number of white pilots at SAA. In fact, I believe they have actually stated that to the SAAPA negotiators. Obviously SAAPA would not allow that but that the company actually thinks they can discriminate against white pilots makes me sick :yuk:

JuniorFO,

Quote:
All pilots at SAA are treated equally.

And one has to only look at pilots who have been dismissed in the past, and you will note that race has played no role whatsover in that decision, only competence.

....only some are treated more equally than others. It did get at least one individual some massive leeway and a foreign audience before being shown the door anyway. This is not a dig at you, just your misguided statement.

I think this article is a good illustration of "Command and Control" at SAA:

Question 1

Now that the company has issued Section-189 letters to all employees, what is the process?


The section-189 letters that SAA issued on 5 September gives the company 60 days to consult with recognized trade unions in order to come up with solutions to the R638-million gap. We are talking about alternatives to retrenchments, the bulk of which relates to renegotiating conditions of employment and labour agreements to standardise employment conditions across the board. A number of agreements have been put in place with employees over the past 10 to 15 years, some of which are highly onerous to the organisation. Rather than having different agreements with different groupings of employees, be it management, pilots, crew members or junior employees, the proposal is to standardise and simplify conditions of employment throughout the organisation. This will help SAA to return to profitability on a sustainable basis.

Question 2

What’s going to happen if management and the unions cannot reach agreement?


At the end of the 60 days, if there is no viable alternative on the table and we cannot close the R638-million gap, we will unfortunately have to start retrenching. Given that SAA has looked at every aspect of the business and done all it can to reduce costs and grow revenue, the only alternative will be to retrench employees. The current estimate is that if no savings are achieved in negotiations with labour on employment conditions and labour agreements, a total of 2 232 employees will have to be retrenched. This will take place in a staggered manner.

Question 3

What happens if we save only a portion of R638-million in the consultations?


The number of people to be retrenched will be determined by the extent to which we can close the gap. The more that we can save through renegotiating conditions of employment and labour agreements, the fewer people we will have to retrench.




Question 4

What are the timelines, ie, when is the final decision to be made?


At the end of the 60 day period, SAA management will announce the extent of the retrenchments as well as the process and timing thereof.

Question 5

What impact will the Section-189 process have on me?


Every job in the organisation is affected by the Section-189 process. This consultation process has already taken place with managers, with the result being that we have reduced management by 223 positions. We are now moving into the next phase, which means that all jobs in the bargaining units are affected by Section-189. There has to be consultation with the representative unions which will make recommendations to management on your behalf. Employees in the bargaining units should make their recommendations through to the unions.

Question 6

Will junior employees receive Voluntary Severance Packages (VSPs)?


There will be VSPs offered to junior employees whose jobs are affected. This will take place in a similar manner to those positions affected due to the grounding of the Boeing 747-400s.

Question 7

To what extent have the recent resignations reduced the 2 232 figure?


The R638-million gap is based on the budget at the beginning of this financial year. Any resignations will contribute to a reduction in the 2 232-figure.

Question 8

Are the pilots being affected and if so, how?


The section-189 notice applies equally to all employees of SAA. To the extent that flight numbers are being reduced, an appropriate number of pilots and cabin crew will be affected.

Question 9

Have the unions agreed to make concessions to their existing agreements?


The unions have made some concessions but these are not fundamental in nature. We need to standardise all conditions of employment if we are to reduce costs on a sustainable basis and secure the future profitability and stability of the airline. We are hopeful that our negotiations will lead to an outcome that is in the best interests of the airline.



Question 10

If SAA cuts 2 232 jobs, will it be able to operate effectively?


The plan is not to retrench this number of people, but rather to fundamentally restructure and reduce SAA’s cost base through renegotiating all labour agreements and conditions of employment. If we do have to retrench the total of 2 232 jobs, it will be staggered over a period of time and we will have to consider the options regarding how SAA operates in the future.

Question 11

Why has SAA management said that all agreements with unions should be scrapped and that a clean-slate approach should be adopted?


The aim of having standardised labour agreements is to have an equitable agreement across all employee groups so that there are no privileged groups, including management. The current agreements were inherited from the past when the country’s apartheid policies were still in place and they must be reformed if SAA is to grow in the future. In their totality, they prevent the country’s employment equity regulations from being fully implemented.

It is not possible to retain these agreements as they will ultimately hold SAA back in the future – we need to adopt a clean-slate approach and renegotiate all labour agreements. These agreements were put in place when SAA was effectively the only national airline operating in SA; and we now need to be able to reduce costs to operate in a competitive environment.

Some examples of these agreements include:

· SAA cannot open a new route without negotiating with labour, typically resulting in additional costs for the airline;

· In terms of employing pilots, the experience of the new pilot cannot be taken into consideration in terms of being promoted to a captain. Promotion is made in terms of seniority, which tends to prejudicial to black pilots

· Retrenchment of pilots is also based on seniority so, for example, a 60-year old pilot cannot be retrenched ahead of a 40-year old pilot. Again, this tends to affect black pilots who were employed at SAA most recently.

Question 12

Why has the figure of proposed retrenchments increased in recent months?


SAA has approached the issue of labour in a phased manner. The first phase was management, the second phase relates to 711 employees who will be affected by various initiatives being implemented, such as the grounding of the B747-400s and the launch of the One-Stop-Shop, which combines SAA’s check-in, ticketing and Voyager functions. The current phase is the re-negotiation of labour agreements and conditions of employment, which aims to result in the saving of R638-million.




Question 13

What sacrifices will management be making?


All initiatives, including the standardisation of conditions of employment, include management. In the process to date, 223 managers are currently being retrenched. SAA’s challenge regarding costs is not a recent one. Over the past two years, senior management has not received any salary increases or bonuses, which they were entitled to. It is also worth noting that with the exit of 223 managers, the remaining managers will have to take on more work than they currently have.

Question 14

What can go wrong during the restructuring?


If SAA employees take their eye off the ball and lose focus, it will affect the business. Employees need to ensure that they keep their focus on customers to protect SAA’s revenue, and to make sure that the business continues to operate effectively.

Question 15

What if I want to contribute to cost savings?


SAA management remains open to all suggestions from employees on saving costs and generating revenue. There are various avenues for people to come forward – you can go to your union representative, your line manager or write directly to the CEO.

Question 16

Will the sale and partial privatisation of certain divisions of SAA help the financial situation?


SAA is currently doing a due diligence exercise of each of the entities to establish the possibility of getting outside equity partners. One of the reasons SAA management plans to unbundle the business is to simplify and make it more manageable. This will give management greater control over the finances of the organisation.

Question 17

What happens if any division of SAA gets more work?


All additional work will be evaluated against the overall strategy for that unit. If it makes sense to take on additional work as it will allow SAA to grow, then we will do so. But SAA cannot grow its way out of trouble, it first needs to turn the airline around, stabilise it and then grow.




Question 18
SAA has set a target of a 7.5% profit-margin before tax within a period of 18-month. Why has SAA set such a high profit-before-tax margin?


The average profit-margin for the peer group of airlines against which SAA benchmarks itself is forecast at more than 7, 5% this year. This includes airlines such as British Airways, Qantas, Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Delta and Air New Zealand. These airlines are SAA’s major international competitors. Qantas, for example, is expecting a profit margin of 12% this year while British Airways’ is expected to reach more than 10%. It is important for SAA to set and meet this target to protect our future, given the volatility of fuel (the oil price this week hit a record high of US$80); fluctuations in the exchange-rate and vigorous competition in the market. A profit margin of 7, 5% is essential if SAA is going to generate a sufficient cash-flow to acquire new aircraft without which we will not be competitive in the future.

Question 19

Does SAA have a plan in place to counter the threat posed by the increased frequencies given to other airlines, most recently Emirates?


While SAA welcomes competition, any increased frequencies allocated to another airline raise the bar for the airline. This will require the airline to find additional cost-savings as well as new sources of revenue. One element of the current restructuring plan is to scale down SAA’s cost-structure to allow SAA to compete effectively, which in turn will help to restore the airline to profitability over the next 12 to 18 months. The vigorous nature of competition from other airlines is one of the reasons we have set a profit margin target of 7, 5%. It is a critical element of ensuring that SAA can survive, be competitive and grow in the future.

The problem is Suitcaseman - the political puppet masters in the goverment would still holding the ropes - the only inprovement that I would suggest to your solution is to privatise SAA completely- no more BEE or afirmative / equal opportunity employment- get the best man or woman for the job - let SAA fly to destinations that makes financial sense and not becauce they were supportive of the "struggle".

Would this ever happen? I think not!

Amen brother. Get the state out of the airline business.

Sadly the history of the nation will haunt SAA for many years to come. The good ol' SAR&H was for white, mainly afrikaans males after 1948. Now 60 yrs later, the new lot are off down the same road.

Kinda didn't think we were gonna get away with a 'sorry', did you?