Transformation in SA Aviation - going nowhere slowly (like this thread)
 

This is my first post in pprune, Aviation in SA has been in the hands of pale males from the beginning. Now 12 years after democracy it is sad to notice that the status quo is maintained. In a country with more than 45 million citizens, why is it that Aviation is controlled by a group making up less than 10% of the population?

More saddening is that any attempt by government to try and level the playing fields by bringing more non-pale pilots and other aviation professionals in the Airforce and Parastatals is met by heavy criticism in the media and forums like these. It seems that this group is very much greedy and they want to keep Aviation in their hands for as long as possible.

Well SA it's time to embrace change, it's time that all those groups that were excluded in professions like these are given a chance to participate in Aviation. I don't mean some tokenism where 1 or 2 non pales are placed as a lame attempt to show representivity, but a sustained programme which will see Aviation being shared proportionally amongst all the population groups in this country.

A friend of mine who replied to a thread lashing at transformation in this forum, told me of a sad story of being locked to post. Well I challenge the moderators of this forum to allow freedom of speech and a critical issue which affects every South African Aviator, Pale or not to be discussed openly.

:ok: :ok: :ok:

"why is it that Aviation is controlled by a group making up less than 10% of the population?"

Funny that - I thought SAA was controlled by the black govermunt??

GI

Aaaaaaah, mmmmmmust fight the urge......................:uhoh:

breathe breathe breathe.

Hell, screw it. Will take a break to cool off.

This chump is just fishing.:suspect:

Surely it is this issue that BEE is supposed to be addressing?
It would have been dangerous and foolhardy to have disposed of the experienced staff and put in place people who were not trained or capable to carry out the responsibilities required of the position. Aviation is too serious a business to start messing around purely for politics. People die if mistakes are made.
Succession planning should see more non pale (whata quaint term:)) people being given the right experience to apply for senior positions, but I hope you are not suggesting they should get the position simply because of colour? It has to be fair for all, pale and non pale otherwise it is discrimination, when it should be the best person getting the position.

This should be a good thread to watch. Move over "Huey" this is going to take over.

Who controls the CAA?
Who controls SAA?

I wonder where I have been all the time. I thought everybody had been moaning like hell because of the BEE with these 2 organisations.

Lets sit back, watch and enjoy.............

All I can say is Afriviation "get a life!"

Oh Is that right
 

SAA belongs to the people of South Africa, every other department in there is making steady progress to transform, but not Flight Operations. All the Senior Management (Flying) there is still very much pale and have been the architects of arrested development for non pales with much needed assistance from SAAPA.

Needless to say the little that had been done there has been at the insistence of the SA government. Show me 1 pale owned Aviation Company that has made similar initiatives with any significance.

C'mon SA, the cockpits of other countries are representative of those countries populations groups why not SA.

one talks of succession planning etc, 12 years on what has happenned in that front? If this was executed in any level, we should be seeing some level of representativity in the development arenas like flying schools and charter companies... In SA?? dream on.

:rolleyes:
Yeehah........hold on Afriaviation this could get rough!!!! Where have you been? This has been discussed on numerous occassions!!! :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:
Be warned as there is a large can of whip ass coming your way:ok: :ok:

Afriaviation where are the non pale entrepreneurs startingtheir own flying schools or charter companies. You know the pales didn't have things handed to them by government decree these last 12 years, they took financial risks, some worked out OK others didn't.

So why have the educated and qualified non pales that you claim are in abundance and ready to take high responsibility not seized the moment and started their own businesses?

Hey Afri!

If you cant hack it in SA today (where there is blatant discrimination against "pales" in the job market) you should just accept that you don't have it...the right stuff that is!

Be careful or you will be labelled a racist soon. I agree with one of the prevoius posters. There are thousands of BEE entrepeneurs out there, what stops them from opening a flight school or charter company??

GI

Non Pale enterpreneurs? well this word is is not well known amongst the non pale circles, probably because dads and moms, grand dads and grand moms worked for some pale farmer earning a measly salary because they were denied a good education and opportunities - ring a bell?

Let's not get into that though, the fact of the matter is everyone knows where we come from and for fairness sake, in the spirit of our newly found democracy, lets open the doors that were previously closed for the benefit of the citizens of this country.

For now nothing much has been asked from the Aviation Community by the government. There are laws and everyone chooses to ignore (affrimative Action, BEE etc). The government has imposed its own schemes in the companies it has direct control over. Unfortunately some of these resources have been missappropriated by those wanting to retain the status quo and the progress has subsequently been put into reverse thrust.

People must realise that as much as it would be ideal for non pales to start investing in their own development, this is not likely to succeed without some catalysts because the PLAYING FIELDS ARE SIMPLY NOT LEVEL.

Afriviation,

There is one question I would like to pose to you and it might be touching on a sensitive subject but seeing as though you have absolutely no tact whatsover here is my relatively tactless question.

When are you going stop blaming white oppression for all your bad luck and start looking in your own backyard?

It is strange to me that even after 12 years of democracy and endless BEE oppertunities you still cannot make it??? It blows my mind.

And don't even start with that sh!t about SAA not welcoming non pales. I know of countless non pales who got into SAA with MINIMAL hours and then there are pales with 1000's and 1000's of hours who cannot get in because "they do not fall into the right demographic.

You know what, if I say to you what I really want to, I will definitely get banned from this site so I'm not going to give you the satisfaction.

Have a good day chum. :ok:

Just googled "entrepeneur" with the following result.
"Bob Reiss, successful entrepreneur and author of Low-Risk, High-Reward: Starting and Growing Your Small Business With Minimal Risk, says: "Entrepreneurship is the recognition and pursuit of opportunity without regard to the resources you currently control, with confidence that you can succeed, with the flexibility to change course as necessary, and with the will to rebound from setbacks."
A key factor in Reiss's definition is that entrepreneurs undertake opportunities regardless of the resources the entrepreneur currently controls. I've known many people who say they'd love to start a business, but they just don't have the money to get started. Neither did many of history's greatest entrepreneurs like Michael Dell, who started his computer company in his college dorm room or Lillian Vernon, who started her mail-order business when she was a housewife looking for extra income. These successful entrepreneurs didn't start rich and successful. They ended rich and successful."

Based on the above definition of an entrepeneur I don't think your ancestors had the ability to be an entrepeneur (but you know this already)

As long as you have this attitude that every thing must be handed to you on a silver plate nothing will change.

The system is heavily stacked in your favour.

The question is - are you guys capable of being entrepeneurs???
GI

No-one will get banned or have their post removed unless they clearly cross the line of civil morality. This is a great forum to debate this subject; Afriviation has stated his grievance; you are free to dispute or support his position. Remember, the whole world is watching. Show them what's really happening down this end of the continent.

4HP

Afriviation, all I can say is, what everybody else thinks,
STOP TALKING KAK

I see this subject is arousing some rather strong emotions, resulting in personal attacks, that's not the intent. We have a problem in SA Aviation and it won't get resolved if we don't confront the issues and not the people. If you have to know I am one of the very few lucky non pales who have been the beneficiary of the Government interventions but I choose look beyond my personal circumstances and tackle the bigger picture.

SAA is the biggest player in SA Aviation and yes there has been some develoments there but the stats (embarrasing) still fall way short of any significant progress. The rest of the industry is a complete shame.

This is what the players in SA Aviation think of non pale aviators: quote

" Does the SAAF really think that the Zim instructors will make the grade? Maybe the reason for getting Zim instructors is so that they will pass all the students that are not making the grade!

I'm very curious to know if they will complete the conversion in only 35 flying hours????:confused: I hope someone will keep us up to date on there progress"

Yes that's right, if you're a non pale in Aviation in SA, the eyebrows are raised everywhere and it's a matter of " he won't make it until he proves us otherwise" whereas when it comes to a fellow pale " he will make it until he proves us otherwise" in the case of a fellow pale every possible assistance will be afforded to them to make the grade or for their entire flying careers even if they are they most useless pilots.

So you will agree with me that beacuse of these prejudices, it is going to be very difficult for most non pales to get anywhere in Aviation in SA.

And shame for the very few of them who are there, they have to endure the daily torment of being labelled getting it the easy way and affirmative action appointees, well they haven't. If their fathers were millionaires and had aeroplanes and huge bank accounts they would also be counted in the thousands of jobless pilots with thousand of hours.

The least the pales can do is to support government in their attempts to redress the past and stop lambasting their efforts. At the end of the day it's beneficial for the socio-economic situation of the country.

Firstly... JG1, best reply so far on this thread! :ok:

Secondly... Afriviation, I just want to add that I know numerous non pale professional pilots who are senior to me in position and in experience and I respect them for that reason and they deserve that respect.

BUT... it is because of dense backwards people like you who keep holding on to the past that South African avation is going nowhere slowly as you put it.

Am I too late..........?:confused:

Have all my fellow PPruners cut Afriviations B#lls off??

Hope not, I was hoping to have a swing.

Afri,

I am going to take a long shot here and try sum up your current situation.
(Please correct me if I am wrong.)

1)Your either unemployed, or in a job you dislike immensely.

2)Have somewhere along the line been discriminated against because of your colour/sex etc

3)Feel you are owed something by the South African aviation industry because of all the injustice thats taking place.

GUESS WHAT CHUM......YOUR NOT THE ONLY ONE.

So do us all a favour.....take a second look and grow up. This debate has been going on for as long as I can remember, and ever so often some nose-miner decides to upset the applecart. :yuk:

SN

Now that I have got that off my chest....I feel much better.

And calm enough to offer some rational thought on the subject.

I can name a pale owned company who is committed to employing non-whites - Solenta.

As others have pointed out, SAA is black-owned and managed.

Afriviation, show me a black pilot who's out of work. Especially one with half decent hours.

'SAA belongs to the people of South Africa, every other department in there is making steady progress to transform, but not Flight Operations.'

So do you want to now put the hands of a huge international airline in the hands of someone who has not got the experience and thereby the qualifications to run it?? I sure Khaya would ensure that if there were a non-white person who could do the job he would be in it.

Afriviation, now I have really calmed down. So tell me, why aren't there enough black pilots around, that SAA is having to hire whites again? I shall tell you why. Because the ANC governements reform initiatives have benefited only an elite few whose sons could have been pilots had they chose to have been before transformation in any case. The general black population has not benefitted much.

So speak to your MP (if you can find him/her) and ask him/her to go to Parliament, and press them to do some proper research on the subject instead of devoting all their time deciding which hat to wear to Parliament, and get them to right things at the bottom.

Tell him/her to applaud the fact that the average black familiy has benefitted in the form of a new tap and some free electricity, and for that they are very grateful, but when please can they get a good enough job so that they earn enough to spend R1/4 mill on putting their son through flight school?

And in the meantime can Tokyo maybe make a few bursaries available?

Afri,

Sounds like you got into SAA, well done. If you are so passionate about uplifting you fellow man, may I ask what you have personally done? why dont you reach into your pocket and sponsor a youngster's PPL and give him/her a start in aviation? or is it just up to everyone else to make a difference? talk is cheap.

If you grow up in a proper home with adequate meals, sanitation and was provided with a good education you have a good chance of being a succesful enterpreneur. Tell me of 1 pale enterpreneur who grew up in orange farm or soweto or Winnie Mandela squatter camp. Well there are a countless non pales who are now millionaires and billionaires.

The point is if as many non pales had equal opportunities as the pales had yes, the notion of hiring the best person for the job would be appropriate.
but every South African who knows anything about our history will tell you that even now in 2006 there's are more non pales living in those very conditions as there were before liberation.

I'm not a politician I'm an aviator, I would like to see more non pale aviators in this country so I can hear more of these indigenous accents on the ATS frequencies and talk about some mutual interest in overseas layovers.

'he won't make it until he proves us otherwise'
__________________________________________

The blacks brought this on themselves. If it weren't for affirmative action, then black pilots would not be viewed as 'tokens', and 'only got the job cos he's black' etc. One of my best mates is a Kenyan, theres no doubt he is one of the finest flyers I have ever met...and he got in on merit, and no-one ever doubted that even once, not once.

Again, refer to your MP. Subject this time : Affirmative Action

And why do we doubt the Zim instructors???

Because Zim is in a shambles!!! They can't even fill my aircraft with jet fuel.
How could these instructors possibly be as current as possible?

And why should we want some 'not as current as possible' instructors instructing our trainees??

When they will have to fly some aircraft we have just paid R20 BILLION for??

Get a grip. Its not because they are black, its because they are SUSPECT because they come from a SUSPECT airforce in a country run by a SUSPECT government.

Afri, you obviously have a deep seated feeling of being slighted by whites...

Nope JG, Afri is very well balanced...he has a chip on both shoulders:}

As I mentioned to you Afri,brace yourself......don't presume and make profound statements thinking that every pale pilot out there had millionaire fathers supporting them through their aviation careers. Many of us,myself included toiled long and hard to achieve the position where we are now.
Not once did I expect anything to be delivered on a plate. But like so many affirmative appointees,they DEMAND and want everything for nothing because they have been so hard done by.Work for it and show everyone that you deserve it. :mad: :mad: :mad:
I think Afri you have a lot of thinking to do and realise that Rome wasn't built in a day.......it will happen.......but also.... very slowly:ok: :ok:

Afriviation, yes, it does look like you are working for SAA.

'I would like to see more non pale aviators in this country so I can hear more of these indigenous accents on the ATS frequencies and talk about some mutual interest in overseas layovers.'

Whats wrong with talking about such things with your white colleagues? Are we not good enough? Are you one of these blacks who keeps to his own kind, despite, ignored attempts by them to include you?? Are you, Afriviation, one of those whom you despise so much - a RACIST?

So you get into SAA, the easy way, and now are not satified with that, no, now you have to moan (probably after not being rostered according to your demands) about the Ops staff not being black too??

Afriviation, maturity lies well before you...

Afriviation - :mad: :mad:

Im not even on the continent anymore but the reverberations from this thread has shaken the ground under my feet. It is because of BULLSH!T policies favouring "non pales" in SA, that myself and others have to go look for jobs abroad. Luckily we've found positions much better than SAA and it's a pleasure knowing that the employment policies practised in SA won't rape us out here.

I dont want to understand why you feel the way you do or debate a topic which a non-pale will never fathom anyway. BUT, I would like to say that I am confident that even if SAA's demographic numbers were 100% in favour of blacks, it will be a matter of (short) time before it ends up like the rest of the African Airlines. Want to debate that!? Show me one succesful airline in Africa other than SAA that has an excellent safety record, well maintained aircraft and well trained crew recognized by ICAO and IATO. You say Ethiopian and Kenyan Airways? Perhaps because they have PALES in flight operations departments.

And don't come with BS saying that non-pales in general can not afford self sponsored flight training. There are plenty of wealth amongst non-pales in SA to look after their own type. :mad: :mad:

and, anyway, I am not 'pale', you insubordinate little sh1t. I am white.

You are probably pale - when you are flying an ILS to minima.

No one is asking any pale Aviation Company to pay for any non pale trainee or hire any black qualified pilot. That would be a foolish request judging from their willingness to share with others in the lhistory of this country.

Accept that this is a multi racial country and the government has to do what they have to strike some kind of balance in this polarised financial situation. The reason I am referring to a financial situaton is because Aviation is Money and there's no way most non pales can afford even going solo in a cherokee.

As for Zim Instructors and the like, well I'm sure the Government is frustrated by the pale instructors who keep on frustrating their efforts by failing the non pale students and wasting taxpayers money as the responses in this thread clearly show, non pales are not yet welcome in SA cockpits.

JG1, in most of them I have no concept of the topics being disccussed. A lot of Captains I've flown with would discuss a racial topic and I would have to swallow even though I know that it is innapproriate but I am not about to risk my ccrediblity by arguing with them
But obviously that's not a critical motive for my post.

I am sick and tired of the SA Aviation Community who are always moaning about Nhlanhla Dube, SAA Cadets failing interviews, Black people at the SACAA, Zim Instructors, affirmative action and the like whereas they are still a majority in this industry. Instead of helping out and being part off the solution and help getting this industry to grips with the new dispensation.

It seems that some "Pale" individual at SAA ops pissed on your battery this morning and is this your way of getting back Afri?Get on with it,grow up and realise that it's reality out there.........man this yanks my chain!!:bored: :bored:
"I am sick and tired of the SA Aviation Community who are always moaning about Nhlanhla Dube, SAA Cadets failing interviews, Black people at the SACAA, Zim Instructors, affirmative action and..."
And the reason Afri is because they are USELESS.......bottom line........face the facts.

For the benefit of those around the world who have been feeling sorry for the pales in this country, you don't have a reason to, they make up more than 95% of the Aviation Professionals (Pilots, Engineers) whilst they represent less than 10% of the total population and they moan like hell.

"Government is frustrated by the pale instructors who keep on frustrating their efforts by failing the non pale students and wasting taxpayers money"

I really hate to burst you bubble but the white instructors can not be expected to just pass black students. Here are just a few examples that should show you why they failed.

* A certain duo of black cadet pilots flew a Cherokee 180 into a bloody sand dune and ripped of the main gear because they could not judge their height. And then they tried to blame it on a bad landing. :}

* Another black pilot from another cadet scheme landed a Cherokee 180 with the parkbrake on resulting in quite an interesting doughnut on the runway and she said she confused the parking brake with the flaps??? :sad:

* When yet another black cadet got into an aircraft for the first time, her words was: "What are all these clocks doing here? I don't want to read time... I just want to fly."

Do I really need to go on?

They are not failed because they are black and they will not be passed because they are black. They are failed because they cannot fly a bloody aircraft!!!

Afriviation,

"Accept that this is a multi racial country and the government has to do what they have to strike some kind of balance in this polarised financial situation. The reason I am referring to a financial situaton is because Aviation is Money and there's no way most non pales can afford even going solo in a cherokee"

"I really hate to burst you bubble but the white instructors can not be expected to just pass black students. Here are just a few examples that should show you why they failed.

* A certain duo of black cadet pilots flew a Cherokee 180 into a bloody sand dune and ripped of the main gear because they could not judge their height. And then they tried to blame it on a bad landing.

* Another black pilot from another cadet scheme landed a Cherokee 180 with the parkbrake on resulting in quite an interesting doughnut on the runway and she said she confused the parking brake with the flaps???

* When yet another black cadet got into an aircraft for the first time, her words was: "What are all these clocks doing here? I don't want to read time... I just want to fly"


Do you want to know what the sad part of this whole story is. Is that the above mentioned posts is black individuals whom had the opportunity, but they do not seem to have a passion for it or the ability.

Go and look at most of the flying clubs around the country and show me how many of the BEE canidates mans the desk at the flying schools for a hours worth of flying. There is a lot of white canidates doing that that has a passion for aviation.

I'ts unfortunate but we are in a situation where a lot of these canidates expects it to be given to them without having to work their ars off for it.

Once again this is not an unsubstatiated comment that I am sucking out of my thumb. Go and talk to the people at the "grass roots" level.

I think that you have lost track of reality, with regard to the current situation

I'm glad that I don't work for the same company as you.
If there's likeminded individuals with the arrogance you are displaying at the
moment, such a company is only heading in one direction.

Afriviation, glad you are back.

'The reason I am referring to a financial situaton is because Aviation is Money and there's no way most non pales can afford even going solo in a cherokee.'

Don't want to burst your bubble, but there's no way most whites can afford even going solo in a Cherokee, either.

As others have pointed out, they worked their butts off to become pilots. I know some who waitered and blew all their tips & wages for the month on ONE lesson. We weren't all handed it on a plate.

The last thing my father ever gave me was a Chopper bicycle on my 8th birthday.

Ja, and in case you haven't noticed, we ALL moan. Its not just a white thing.

As far as evening out the financial balance....next time you drive, have a look in most of the over-R500k cars you see on the road - 90% black drivers.

Their sons don't want to become pilots, they are too busy making millions in BEE!!! in fact, Afri, you must look like a bit of a loser to a lot of your peers....they are driving BMW645i's and raking in millions...you are just a boy pilot..!:{

Again - off to your MP. Once you are past the ML430 and the X5 in the driveway you can ask him/her why you got nobbed into such a kak job when you were supposed to be liberated.

Oh My I like this, the more you are trying to debate the subject, the more you're exposing your own prejudices.

JG1 sorry baas, your humble servant didn't mean to hurt your feelings I am now becoming more enlightened to challenge you in reconising that I too have talents just like you and given the opprtunity I'll probably demonstrate better operations and landings than you could ever imagine.



Not once did I expect anything to be delivered on a plate. But like so many affirmative appointees,they DEMAND and want everything for nothing because they have been so hard done by.Work for it and show everyone that you deserve it. :mad: :mad: :mad:
I think Afri you have a lot of thinking to do and realise that Rome wasn't built in a day.......it will happen.......but also.... very slowly:ok: :ok:

I ain't waiting until my Great Grand Children see the fruits of the liberation, the time is now and something has to be done NOW. You have to plant the seeds, where are these planted in SA Aviation today?

Phenomenon, You talk of black student that have been in aircraft prangs and demonstrated a lack of undertsanding about Aviation, well yes what do you expect from our background. The policies of the previous government were to ensure that we do not become anything but cleaners, carpenters Bantu education teachers etc. Well you know what, despite all those barriers non pales have in their little way managed to break out. It is not acceptable that these talented people are stiffled to this very day and not be allowed to reach their full potential
On the other hand, how many pale students havee pranged aircraft in the military and civillian aircraft. But these don't get media coverage because it's Ok for them to have accidents. But non pales are so much in the spotlight that even when they sneeze it has to make headlines.

What is expected of a non pale in South Africa " Kom hierso seun was my kar" or "Maak my tuin" if a non pale shows any signs of assertiveness or confidence he is referred to as having an attitude problem or a chip on his shoulder and therefore not pilot material, probably because he'll challeged the Captain when he's about to screw up. I believe I have chips on both I'm proud.

"As others have pointed out, they worked their butts off to become pilots. I know some who waitered and blew all their tips & wages for the month on ONE lesson. We weren't all handed it on a plate."

That is true, however generally you will now that some if not most of your compatriots had Daddy paying directly or indirectly and Oh how can I forget then there's the thousands who received their flying training from the military - "gratis" When the very same thing is done for non pales Oh it's so unfair, Silver platters, Shame on you.

Even If A non pale can get a job as a waiter they probably have 3 brothers and SIsters to support, nieces and nephews. You know the thing about non pales they are very supportive of their family structures even if it means sacrificing the little bit they have.

Ja well Afri, if I was a cleaner or a garden boy then I would make sure I didn't have six children.

"JG1 sorry baas, your humble servant didn't mean to hurt your feelings I am now becoming more enlightened to challenge you in reconising that I too have talents just like you and given the opprtunity I'll probably demonstrate better operations and landings than you could ever imagine."
----------------------
I very much doubt that, but I will humour you. I recognise that you have talents. Maybe not as much talent as someone who had to work their way up the hard way, on contract in the Congo, Afghanistan, Angola etc, but you got your PPL and passed your Comm exams. And you can do a bit of radio work, one would hope. You are sitting as P3 in a long-haul aircraft, where lots of others dream to be. So you have been given the opportunity.

So lets see you demonstrate a little maturity and see the world from a more balanced perspective. Put your past behind you and look to your future. At the moment, things are going so well for you that the only one who can cock it up is you.

"I ain't waiting until my Great Grand Children see the fruits of the liberation, the time is now and something has to be done NOW. You have to plant the seeds, where are these planted in SA Aviation today?"

You see there you go again.....I DEMAND....,.....I want it now.
Well Afriman it ain't going to happen NOW.....so get off your high horse and come back to earth.....,.bump....,..thud.....:p

l don't post much at all but...

l am surprised how many of you lads have let this dope get up your noses.

Let's face it Haiti has been independent 200 years and they still don't have tarred roads or running water. Pales have take half of that to start flying, get someone to the moon and be where we are now.

Afri is the one with the biggest headache amongst us guys. He KNOWS that he is useless but worst of all for him, and this is the peanut, he KNOWS that the world knows, he is useless! That must be devastating.

Take care All, fambai zvakanaka...:ok:

Putco,
Well said...but then again he's too useless to realise all of this.
Like I said before some sort of hev at Saa pissed on his luggage so he's just getting his own back.