Ok let me help you here, the aircraft in SA are moatly flown by people of pale pigmentations. If all the aircraft in SA were leased from Europe they would all be flown by people of pale pigmentation. Most of the aircraft in this country are owned locally, some are dry leased from Europe and the rest of the world, then why can't most of the majority population groups of this country be seen flying these aircraft???

maybe you should follow your own advice and do the comprehension thing :hmm:

I see what you're getting at now. If you put it all in English then maybe I could have understood.
Therefore by the power of deduction then all German people will be driving German cars, French people.....French cars and so on and so forth.
Afriman your argument again stinks.......and again i'm afraid you're talking even more kAKthan ever before.
I can't believe that an educated individual like myself lowers himself to this pathetic banter.
May your cockpits be filled with happiness Afriman cos hell there ain't much here........:sad:

You are happy to harp about your Kenyan Friends and colleagues, i haven't heard you mention any of your South African black pilot friends, that's probably you don't have any because you hate them as they got it in a silver platter and they are a threat to you.

Lets face it, black people can work until blood comes out of their ears, but they don't stand a chance in hell in making it in the highly competitive circles of SA Avaition if government does not intervene.

Most of you probably know this that even in your own white circrles, for anyone to get somewhere you have to have some connections in the Company. look for example how many Father&Son/Daughter combinations you have at SAA, co-incidence yeah right.

What connections would an aspirant black pilot would have that would be thicker than blood?

Give me a break you all know that this is not all about hard work and earning your place, it's about connections, circles, favours etc. Blacks don't go to pubs with whities or invite them for potjiekoses at their homes. They have zilch chances of ever making those connections.

The only way to get blacks employed in Aviation, is through Government intervention PERIOD!!! And even that is still met with hard hitting opposition and criticism.

Hey Afriman.....look at Birdladys' post about her attempted hi-jacking on the
N1.......makes you sick man. And you want us to embrace your feelings about equality. Get a life and go ut and preach to these jerks that want to ruin the lives of many for what?:rolleyes: ....... a couple of grand.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Nou is ek kwaad!!!!!!

I have had to register in order to reply to this thread. It is just too much to let it pass. Clearly I am a pale male and I have read with interest the various comments posted here.

South Africa needs to redress the imbalances of past. Miraculously we are here without a fight. Nevertheless the majority of population have aspirations and unfulfilled expectations. Without addressing these issues appropriately in the near future there certainly remains the possibility of this country becoming a Zimbabwe.

I am a landowner with a land claim on my property. The land claim exists as an attempt by government to address an issue in the past. I do not want to sell my property but the reality is without pale males making conscious and tangible efforts to address these aspirations then the whole country is at risk. I will negotiate to settle this claim by selling it on a 'willing buyer willing seller basis'. I do however expect a reasonable compensation.

Afriviation has a legitimate point. He is actually expressing it quite reasonably unlike some of the replies. The transformation he is wanting is not going to happen overnight. But unless there is a proactive and reasonable approach to include non pale males in this area of industry then it will never happen. A squeaky wheel gets oil. He's squeaking and we should at least offer some commitment to transform.

Afriman....you may be right BUT you still have had to have proved yourself somewhere along the line in order that you may be recommended by someone in that particular company. It's the facts of life Afriman.....
As for your issue with blacks not going to pubs with the whities etc. I'm not surprised with the type of attitude you have. Again i reference the cadets I have flown with.....on numerous occasions we all went out together to several pubs etc.
I can't see your issue with this statement.......again i'm lowering my self.
Must get back on my pedestal where i belong and keep those natives who are revolting at bay!!!!!!;)
Ha now I've done it!!!
You're not beechjet in disguise are you?
Mysticflyer...............where are you?????

As I have said pale ZA male on numerous occassions.... Rome was not built in a day.......but unfortunately Afriman wants everything to happen yesterday and we all now that is both unreasonable and unrealistic. In time we will see it change as it is what we hear through the corridors of power.....But like anything it takes time.:ok:
You see it's this type of thing that makes you realise what an arrogant, ignorant bafoon you really are. By using the word hate, Afriman, you have moved this posting from your side onto a totally different playing field. I actually pity you and feel sorry for the great crews that you will be flying with in the future for they will be subjected to your hateful ways!!!!
Some professional pilot you are. You should be stricken from the ranks........

Pale ZA Male well said, The issue is not about doing favours for the blacks it's about achievieng some equality across the board. You will never make everyone happy however what we have in SA is a formula for disaster, which is not being given the necessary attention it deserves. A lot can be said about similar situations in other spheres of our society, however I am limited by what I have observed right under my nose in Aviation. If this the kind of attitude our fellow white counterparts have adopted then it's sad for this country. We have made several strides to improve in many facets of our economy, but we cannot ignore the vast majority of the citizens of this country.

Again I'm no politician just a proud South African Aviator who aspires for equal opportunities for all aspirant Aviators of this country across all races.

When beechbum, in the 23rd century, well perhaps in SA aviation one needs to make noise now for it to happen then

Ultimately, after reading the whole thread, I am still of the opinion that there is no fix to the problem. Affermative action (AA) is a reality in our country. Ones personal opinions about the validity of AA are only of intrest to those that hold them, as the actual decision has been made by the rulers of the nation, and for the forseeable future will not change. The problem lies in the fact that someone has to pay for AA to take place. SAA has a program in place, which I believe is a good one. I have met some of the black pilots that have come through the system, and I must say that I am generaly impressed with the standard.

If I was the owner of a small, or large aviation company in SA, I don't believe that I would sponsor a black pilot. Not because of race, but because it is a very expensive exercise, and the candidate would leave before I got any return on my investment. This is not to say that the candidate would be wrong to go, on the contrary, he would be foolish not to futher his career. The profit margin in the aviation industry is too small to expect the industry to pay for the training. (I'm talking charter / airline) The only funding that can take place to drive the idea of AA in aviation is Government (through the SAAF and SAA), and private individuals and companies who have vast quantities of spare money to spend on bursaries to students. Down side to this is that these individuals would rather sponsor a universaty graduate that they can later get their pound of flesh from.

So once again, I am the prophet of doom. There is no answer. IF there is, I will be the first to subscribe to it, as I was born in this country, I love this country and I will do anything in my power to assure that this country is as good to my children as it was and is to me!

Afriman, tell us how long did it take you to get where to you are today in aviation? if some government official were per chance surfing this forum tonight and decided to take action tommorrow morning, without first starting a commision of enquiry and another commision and another and so on and so on, as per your progress time scale how long would it take to reach some kind of equality?, 3/4/5 years I would think.

And do you really believe that ranting and raving on this forum, getting it to grow to 5 pages in just one day is actually gonna make a difference?

The profile of people on this forum, and on pprune in general are not your captains of the industry ie Roger Foster/Vernon Bricknel/Piet van Hoven/whoever is currently running SAA/SAX. These people that can actually make the difference, they are probably not even that interested in pilot issues, more worried about yields, prices, profit margins, answering to shareholders, to them we are all just "workers" or "employee numbers".

You are just getting your fellow "workers" and colleages all worked up and resentment towards you but no solution will come out of this, we can all agree, disagree and comiserate with you but we cannot effect the changes.

Thus my call to you bring this issue that you so strongly feel about out into the open, go see your "congressman" and ask for an official enquiry to be launched, thats the only way that your frustrations can be addressed.

Then we will see what is really going on here!

beechbum is obviously an orthodox white supremist, the only dilemma I have is that the most progressive and succesful white people are the ones who tend to to understand the issues of diversity, equality and so forth, so where does that leave beechbum. he's probably a miserable whitie who was not fortunate enough to have his parents take full advantage of the status quo and make a fortune like most pale people. So you see beechbum you would be better off supporting my cause at least I would make sure that you at least get some recourse in this new dispensation.
You could move from the flying school and get a real job flying real aeroplanes.

I manage a small business which is being driven by BEE requirements to become BEE. There is more to BEE than just selling shares, something that the shareholders are loathe to do. We have been focusing on employment equity, training, enterprise development etc. In our firm positions exist that should be filled by 'non pale' faces. However the reality of the situation is that there are insufficient educated and experienced black people (black, coloured, indian etc) to fill it. Those that we have appointed have needed a significant amount of mentoring and allowances have been made in their performance. Considering the transformation obstacles and issues I have encountered in a small company makes it easily understandable why transformation in a highly specialised industry such as aviation is taking so long.

There is also no mentoring in flying. You either qualify or you don't. However, a common thread amongst all pilots is that they are passionate about flying. It is not something peope do when all else fails. They are there because they want to be there and to get into it professionally takes years of building hours. Perhaps Afriaviation, your time frame needs to be extended and your delivery expectation reduced. The final result of representation of africans of all colour is hopefully what will make this country succeed where other african countries have failed.

In typing my last reply I missed a bit of activity. However may I say Afriviation that your comments are becoming personal and contribute nothing towards the issue you raised. The strength of your initial comments were that they were sensible and were expressed without the emotion you now display.

Romeo Thanks, Look man this forum is never going to get any of the gripes I have said all day today right. The reason I decided to post my views on this forum is becasue of the amount of gripes by the regular posters in this forum about BEE employment equity etc in Aviation. Someone had to tell them that hang on you are moaning about a,b and c whilst the millions of South Africans who could lay claim to this profession are sitting quietly and hoping for the sun to shine one day.

As one of the writers has posted recently, it is quite expensive for any Company to sponsor a pilot. Granted, but why do whities always moan about that darkie and that one who have been sponsored by governemet when in fact that's the least that could happen in trying to redress the past imbalances. I mean any outsider sho would have read these posts (before today off course) would think that SA white Aviators are marginalised whreas in fact the opposite is true.

Afrivation,

I've had a really kuk day so please bear with me ;) :\ :\

You have made some valid points but in others you have not. Let me explain.

Agreed apartheid did create a huge amount of inequalities. Yes the aviation industry should be more demorgraphic. However, this should be done WITHOUT compromising safety. You mentioned in one of your earlier posts, as my understanding was, that because you have a licence you are qualified. I could not disagree with this more. Same as you would not expect a newly qualified doctor to perform a heart transplant by themselves you would not expect a newly qualified CPL to land an aircraft on some dodgy landing strip in the middle of nowhere in kuk weather by themselves. Baby steps is the key. ;) ;)

Another point you made was that the government should be responsibe for implementing BEE (for lack of a better word) in the aviation industry. This is all very well and think on principle is a good policy if not always practicle. But like you said yourself not many non pales are able to afford to fly in the first place. This is the same everywhere. Im irish, besides the fact that I grew up in SA why do you think Im doing my training here - because its ALOT CHEAPER. If I did go back to Ireland to finish my licence (did seriously consider after my experience today :rolleyes: ) it would cost 10's of thousands of pounds - money which I do not have.

Your obviously a well educated bloke and I do understand where you are coming from even if you maybe slightly dillusional :p :p :p Allow me to explain, you said crime here is rampant because of the socio economics. Whose to blame for that. THE GOVERNMENT. Not enough money is spent on uplifting the people through education. If enough money was spent setting up education schemes we would not be in the position that we are in now - unemployement leading to crime and/or poor living conditions. And if you think about it by some screwed logic not enough money to fly :rolleyes: :ok: :ok:

Afriman, if your intention was to get at those in this forum and on various other topics that complain about BEE and employment equity issues, then you succeeded and I am with you on this issue, if we dont address the imbalances of the past then we are just sitting on a gunpowder keg just waiting for the ignition source, the time scale could be a problem, FAIR equity for those that have achieved at least the MINIMUM requirements is also only fair. Most of us have already achieved something in our lives and therefore should not withhold oppurtunities for others just because we are GREEDY, but the process must be FAIR. Token'isms in promotions and employment and awarding cadet scheme oppurtunities is not what we want as that will just cause another "thread" to be started up again...........You have made those anti-BEE/equity people aware of your gripe....I call on you to take it to the open if you actually want to see some FAIR action to take place.

BEE today is far less severe than bussing was in America. It is an attempt to level the playing field and no-one wants to play uphill. BEE is still a form of discrimination and when you are at the receiving end you complain. Fortunately we, pale faces, have access to the media and can complain loudly. It was just a pity that for years under apartheid many whites could not hear any blacks complaining - otherwise things might have been different. A wheel that does not squeek receives no attention.

Birdlady, some of your points taken, I'm not sure how much os the history of this country that you do know, but I can tell you that the new government sis trying to undo a deliberate plan by the previous government to deny blacks of a proper education and development.

I'm not sure how they're doing in 12 years, nevertheless it is never going to be overnight same as the transformation of our cockpits. Social engineering is a very long process which requires Capital Investment, supportive communities and a competent government. However it's not only about getting the basics right for the poor it goes up along the food chain to include the professions like Aviation and others. People need to be made to feel that they are an integral part of the economy and not just labourers and consumers.

So once again the ppruners need to accept that in light of the expensive nature of training pilots, Unfortunately taxpayers money has to be used, it is for the benefit of all in the country ultimately. The only other lternative is to alienate SA blacks from flying forever.

Afri, CONGRATULATIONS, this threat started at 11:45. Now 12 hours later we are on page 6. If this demonstrates one thing, it's that this topic needs dealing with (101 posts ...gota be a record).

Other things I have learned.
1. Most real arguementative people go to bed early.
2. Spelling becomes less important with time
3. Some people just don't seem to have a clue
4. Others do
5. Its late
6 I'm tired
8. good night All

Alienate blacks from aviation forever?

Your arguments are not valid. You're playing the emotional and race card at every opportunity. White pilots ARE being marginalised in that they have been told in so many words when applying to the national carrier that they're wasting their time. The importation of foreign pilots from other African countries does nothing but breed resentment among those excluded.

I understand that the Apartheid system was wrong and that injustice was the prime mover for the struggle against the old Nat government. Unfortunately, two wrongs do not make a right and it appears that the current ruling elite haven't realised this. The playing fields are not level and never have been. They've done a complete 180 from skewed in favour of one group to a diametrically opposed position in favour of another with no middle ground. On paper, the discrimination is minor, but the reality is something completely different. The percentage of unemployed black pilots is far lower than that of unemployed white pilots and the situation has reached a stage where the SAAF has a problem in that their pilots are leaving the moment they're qualified as airlines snap them up and have even been known to pay for their outstanding training bonds to get them released. The cadet scheme is a step in the right direction but the selection criteria leave much to be desired. To uplift those in desperate need is one thing but family and friends of political cronies and business associates do not fall into that category.

A pilot with the unfortunate burden of being male and white is faced with a difficult choice. Stay in a country where he grew up and has an emotional attachment or move on to somewhere less discriminatory. Those fortunate enough to be employed are invariably sent to work outside SA for nowhere near an adequate remuneration, in appalling conditions and at great personal risk in many cases.

Like Tokoloshe, I've worked with some excellent crews all over Africa but the chip on the shoulder of some South African graduates of the cadet scheme leaves me cold and does nothing to further their cause. By the same token, I've spoken to some really pleasant individuals and I have no doubt they'll go far in their careers.

'Nuff said...

"SAYWHAT" I totally agree with you on this on. goodnight........zzzz

10 bucks on this getting to ten pages!

good night..

Every post on this thread deserves an answer, but I have to succumb to the demands of my circradian rhythm. Hopefully i'll have some intelligent answers ofr you in the morning.

Afriaviation I am actually very understanding of your points, but I am increasingly frustrated with your arrogant and offensive replies to many posters.
I also take issue with you about my understanding of leasing. You didn't mention Wet or dry leasing in your initial comment, therefore my comment about most airlines leasing from European or American Leasing companies was quite correct. They lease the aircraft instead of buying it, a sort of advanced hire purchase, and they operate them with their own crews, front and back. The countries where the airlines own their aircraft are invariably the ones with the older and well used aircraft that have been banned from Europe for noise reasons etc.
A wet, damp or dry lease is very different.
Whilst there should be a clear aim to try to level the playing fields for anyone from any background to become a pilot, it is absolutely essential that safety standards are maintained and if people cannot cut the mustard then they are dropped. A mistake in most jobs doesn't result in many people dying, in aviation it could well do.

Afriviation, possibly you could give me your insight into something that has puzzled me for a while:

It is now over 13 years since the ANC came into power - since then a large black middle class has developed in SA - whether you like to admit it or not. A cursory glance through the Sunday Times careers section will confirm that affirmative action is alive and well. As someone pointed out earlier the majority of 500k + cars on the road are driven by non-whites. Millions of black people in SA own properties in the suburbs.

So what prevents the kids of these 'middle class' citizens pursuing a career in aviation? Where are the black kids in the grassroots of aviation? In the microlight clubs, in the EAA, in the model aeroplane clubs? Where are the black kids pushing gliders around all day on a dusty airfield for a shot at 20 minutes in the air? Where are the black kids working in the Mc Donalds on the weekend, scraping together enough money for an hour in a 172 once a month? Where are the black flying instructors, toiling away hour upon hour in some battered old trainer for a mere pittance? Where are the black kids working behind the desks of the flying schools, gofering on contracts or in the residential flying schools - I have no doubt they would be welcomed with open arms. Where's the passion??

Could it be that for most aviation requires sacrifice and dedication? Possibly it could be that being a pilot doesn't carry the perceived status of being a hotshot politician or middle manager on some fast track blue chip management training program. And of course theres no fancy BMW....

I have spent the last few years working as a contract pilots in the sh%tholes of Africa. Nothing was handed to me, or most of my colleagues on a plate. Every one of my hours was paid for by sweat, toil and sacrifice. The car I drive is still a piece of cr$p. Many of my colleagues, including myself worked for years in other careers to be able to finance the dream of becoming a commercial pilot. Yet our esteemed national carrier does not consider us worthy of the seat occupied by your buttered non pale arse.

As for the old apartheid story. GET A LIFE!!!!!! The Jews have been persecuted and discriminated against for thousands of years - yet it hasn't stopped then from becoming the most influencial and powerful race on the planet. Possibly because they dealt with it and moved on instead of wallowing in self pity and blame?

Moderators - is this guy posting from SA?? Seems like a bit of a wind up to me? Hes not from Denmark by any chance?

Anyway, I'm off to go and stamp my feet and burn some stuff down now...

Review your position
 

Afriviation, I am not a pilot. I am an Air Traffic Controller of 22 yrs experience and now reside and work abroad. My decision in moving abroad is career based and financial goal orientated. I truly love every aspect that constitutes what is known as the 'aviation fratenity'.

You initiated a controversial and well travelled thread, that being the subject of ensuring a geater commitment (not just at govermental level, but regionally and company based level ) to ensure greater respresentivity of the overwelmingly black population in South Africa in the aviation fraternity, more particularly, that of pilots.

I would imagine that you knew it would attract pointed and deliberate counter viewpoints and opinions, and possibly that may have been a small part of your motive. However, be that as it may, I in all honesty have to admit, you thus far have displayed a very calm, balanced and rational approach as opposed to some of the more direct and 'untailored' rebuttles you have been recipient of. This is a good quality, dont ever lose it, it will stand you in good stead in years to come. However, take into account, you are dealing with gentlemen who amongst them carry in relation to you, a far superior knowledge of flying, be it in various aircraft, to destinations, on routes, with new equipment and having a flying culture/knowledge data-base, that when they share that with you, and they will, you will see why South African pilots are rated amongst the best in the world. These gents are no lightweights and invariably dont have the inclination to pad some of their responses, but I can assure you Afriviation, these gents have thrown nothing but the surgically naked truth out there.

You seem to display a passion for your career and an equally matched frustration as to why the representation level within the demographics is not what you would expect it to be. I also sense that you also lay a large part of the blame within the training framework. It is because of this, that I want to share my experience of training Air Traffic Controllers with you as I can safely assume, based on personal experience is not that far removed from the training methodologies within the realms of SAA, or aviation training in SA today as a whole.

Firstly, without realising it, you for all intents and purposes answered some of your own questions and frustrations with some of your comments on SA's newly formed democracy, very early in the first two or three of your postings. The democratic re-birth of South Africa is nothing short of a "world first". Take into account, even though black people are the monority in the USA, it took them two revolutions, a horrendous and protracted civil war and many vicious internal 'state' sourced clashes to attain what they proudly proclaim as the 'model' of democracy, all this over a period of 100 years. Yet, still many of the same issues are prevalent today, all-be-it on a much smaller scale, but none-the-less, still prevalent. India too, the self proclaimed oldest democracy, took in excess of fifty years to show any real signs of stability, let alone a democracy.

By saying this, I am in no way making light of the human rights abuses and oppresion South Africa pre 1994 enaged in, not at all, I am merely bringing into prespective that 12 years is in the shaping of a democracy, especially from a government gazetted oppressive era, still what is termed 'infancy', an infancy that carries with it all the dangers and rewards, elation and despair, success and failure, the inevitable pogress and yes, also the inevitable bouts of regress that may occur. As you correctly, say, the Apartheid governments biggest and most disturbing legacy to overcome, is that of tolerance and apathy, instead of empathy. This as you and several other of the contributors to this topic have correctly stated is something that is best served by patience and diligence. The change is happening, it is not a case of it will happen at a slow pace, but it is happening at a slow pace and that in a twelve year democracy is already a milestone. Most democracies 'fence-sit' for twenty, thirty years before even attempting to embark on formative changes. South Africa practised Affirmative action from pracically day one, the USA procrastinated over the subject for some thirty to forty years before displaying any real in-roads into affirmative action. South Africa has been labelled by President Bush of the USA as an "Anchor" in Africa. Even though President Mbeki's quiet diplomacy or "third way" in dealing with conflict in Africa was much maligned, it was his "third way" using South Africa's democracy as a model, that in 2002 managed to get the DRC's Joseph Kabila and Rwanda's Paul Kagame to sit face-to-face for the very first time since the Great Lakes conflict erupted and begin a process of peace talks that eventually evolved into the UN sanctioned MONUC peace monitoring force that served in the DRC. In that year, the Interim Chairperson of the OAU, Amara Essy and the Malawian President Bakili Muluzi and DG of the UN, Kofi Annan, were willing counter signatures to the beginning of this peace process. It was not immediately successful, but up and until that particular point nothing had been done to even match what SA was doing. So in 2002, after just 8 years of democracy, to have your Country's democratic growth and stability sold as a "model" is quite something indeed, in fact, it is a world first. Afriviation, in writing this, I am saying, start to have more faith and belief in what your own government is doing by realising that development and empowerment of black employees in SAA, whether pilot or not, will most definitely after twelve years not be fully representitive, but take courage in the fact that there is a programmre in place to address that. Despite what you perceive as 'glaring' instances of deliberate obstacles to induce failure or even frustration such that resignations are forth-comming, may very well be explained away on closer inspection, only to find that after exhaustive and extended training, nothing more could have been done to assist that particular candidate in succeeding. You might even discover that some candidates were given more than one or two chances at trying and might even have been the recipient of an instructors time outside of his/her working hours for what they might not even have been paid. As one of the contributors stated earlier on, there has to be an Academic cut off point beyond which not only will it be unsafe to go (peoples lives), but current economics will deem it without purpose in relation to the very real business of making money and runing a business, which you admitted to in one of your earlier postings. You might even discover that one or two instructors could see the ever so faint emergence of potential in a candidate after several failings, but bound by regulations, had to submit, possibly even grudgungly, to having to fail that candidate.

I have trained so many ATC's, I barely remember some of the faces or countries they came from, let alone their names. However the one aspect of training South African ATC's I remember, especially black candidate ATC's is this; I along with many if not all of my colleagues recognized that even after being selected for training, we would have to put in a far greater amount of time and effort, especially the finely tuned art of patience in training them, again, by-en-large because of the reason you alluded to yourself earlier on, the legacy of oppresive education in SA. This we did gladly, as we all were and still are, as you are, passionate about our particular careers. Our black trainees from South Africa received, if needed our extra time, not only after hours, but on weekends too,.......without being paid for it. I will even go so far to say that at times when there appeared to be a glimmer of hope in some of the weaker cadets, we assessed them on a slightly more lenient basis than say their stronger black or white counter-parts. This was done in realising that possibly language and confidence and understanding of separation application and other procedures would be given a boost to a point where-by they actually empowered themselves to succeed. Several times we employed these 'lenient' procedures, candidates emerged stronger and continued their training with such purpose, they succeeded, which in its own right, empowered then even more. Even our critique of their performances during training were toned down or 'watered' down. I pesonally have witnessed candidates on the receiving end of such training methodology, progress and evolve into very articulate and successful ATC's. Some, controlling to a much higher standard than their white counter-parts. However, South Africa is signatory to ICAO, IATA, adhering to the South African Aviation Legislation Doc and the Training Academy in Johannesburg is a pactising subscriber to the ISO 9001/2 Audit system, with most if not all Instructors SAQWA qualified.

In light of the above, no amount of extension of training or even re-training (which has happenned), will in many cases result in a failing candidate's ability to succeed, so they are either terminated or offerred a post within the framework of Air Traffic Services, but naturally, not one for which they applied. Again, the same reason holds true here, ultimately the ICAO mandate to an Air Traffic Controller must be met, that being the Controllers ability to ensure a Safe, Orderly and Expeditious flow of traffic, Safety being of paramount performance. The Air Traffic Controllers in SA, at all levels are still today not reflective of the "representivity" that you refer to, of course not, but it is most definitely not because of any perceived bigotted approach or anything to the like, on the contrary, it is because the government recognizes that transition and progress in this field, because of its very nature, dictates a gradual and measured pace, one that may at times even be perceived as slow, littered with vindictive/slanted appraisals of staff, or even in-effective. However again, take cognizance of the fact you are in a successful democracy 12 years in its growth from total oppression to total expression, instant results as I have illustrated earlier are not only by world standards completely unrealistic, but have the potential of disaster, which in many ways will, I assure you, if forced upon any company, be more destructive to the very people it is trying to help......no man or woman would be happy forced or fast-tracked into a position they feel insufficiently trained for and the emotional trauma on that person will be without measure should that person bare witness to the failing of a company/venture or heaven forbid, live through an airline disaster that they know in some way, they were in part or wholly responsible for.

Afriviation, it will as I am sure you realise now, take at least one to two generations of post Apartheid Black candidates to start featuring more prominently within the flying fraternity, maybe even sooner.

Your argument is not without its merit, in fact I believe it a very just one, as I know there is untapped potential out there within the ranks of the black population in South Africa, but realise, especially as you present yourself as a rational person, that fast-tracking or protracted training or even liberal or open-ended selection is tantamount to nothing more than a quick-fix approach, and as a pilot in SAA, having made it as far as you have, inter-acting with the invaluable experience of your colleagues, I know you see the value, all-be-it frustrating, in a sustained and measured approach. I know several pilots in SAA, some who have moved on to greener pastures for whatever reason, but whenever I talk to them, one on one, without fail they all admit that whenever a pilot makes it through his/her selection and training, they get only the best in-flight and simulator training and surely that is a standard and culture that you honestly dont believe is worth jepordising to ensure a more immediate reflection of the South African population?

Anyway, all the best in your career with SAA, I am sure you will make all your colleagues proud.

What a disappointing attitude you have Afrivation!

You seem to have a great pozzie at some airline and you moan about there being a lack of blacks in the industry.

1. You need Maths and Science skills for many aviation positions, both skyward and on the ground. This cannot be rushed as one needs a solid grounding in this. In Oz, you will not make it if you don't have this.

2. You are helping someone to get there, I hope, because actions do speak louder than words.

3. Many blacks don't make it because they don't realise what a commitment learning to fly is, as do many whites and other races too (not make it that is)!

4. There is no point in blaming aviation for high standards to meet safety regulations.NO ONE should be allowed to fly if they do not meet the standards.

5. You need to meet more non-black pilots, Afri. You will quickly see that aviation is not fair to all...ask the many pilots who fail to get in to airlines despite having many hours of experience.

6. I left SA before the 1994 elections occurred. I'm disappointed that many are still harking back to those times and have failed to move forward. There are elections due soon and I hope that voters will send the government a message to resolve the massive unemployment and crime issues that affect all in SA.

7. Sons of gardeners, maids, etc. can be anything they want to if they are prepared to work for it. Hard work gets results!

Good luck to everyone in SA...you've a great country!:ok:

We tried to warn you Afriviation........

But alas, you did not listen. You have scratched open old wounds and subsequently made yourself look like a doos.

Sorry old chum.

SN

:cool:

What Ho! Afriviation.
With no disrespect intended; I am not sure that you are on the level.
For a recent joiner you demonstrate quite a reasonable knowledge as to the workings of Pprune and the emotional sensitivities of some of those who post regularily. In addition to this; your command of the English language is to be commended. That is a compliment.

You pose a few questions in your original post. Let me please have a bash at answering them.

In a democracy, when less than 10% of the population control some major element of that society, it is reasonable to draw the conclusion that the less than 10% is better at the job than the more than 90%.

The present South African government, which is perhaps more racist and corrupt than its predecessor would wish to level the playing field?
By reducing standards to accomodate a lowest common denominator?
By the advancement of candidates on the basis of nepotism or racially biased prejudice?
Perhaps it is these policies which fall foul of the media and forums?
The travelling public deserves some protection from a misguided policy which would stuff cockpits with those of any race, dare I say, whose abilities might be less than adequate to safely perform satisfactorily. One must be aware of the fact that there are good taxi drivers and there are bad taxi drivers. Not all taxi drivers are good taxi drivers and therefore, all taxi drivers are bad taxi drivers!:=

Ah yes, job sharing. You cannot really cut up the Christmas cake in proportion to the number of screaming children around the table. Some are simply less able than others to digest rather rich food. Digestive systems do vary from person to person and no amount of tea time tantrums will change this fact.

The Moderators.
Poor long suffering chaps that they are. They have a hard job sometimes but on the whole they perform very well. However, in my limited experience within these august pages; I have to say that they do not take too kindly to lashings either at transformations or anything else for that matter. I suspect that your chum might have been just a teensie weensie bit undiplomatic, perhaps even biased, perchance bigoted? This might just have upset the dear old Censors.

I do hope that some of the above will serve to allay some of your fears.
I don't know whether or not a really good CRM course might help put things in perspective? It should certainly address the perennial problem of perceived inadequacies.
Toodle off now, shall I?:uhoh:

To the guy in the affirmative suite:

I have to agree with some of the earlier post; that it should be about time we stop blamming the Verwoerd goverment for our own short commings.

In aviation we can not have people around just because we need the numbers right.

A SAAF none pale pilot was send to bring the Grippen back to SA, he was not send because he was black but because he deserved it. He is a hard working individual.He achieved this trough hard work. Why is it that this goes un-noticed? Why is it that the one's that does not have what it takes, are always ready to jump on the "your are a racist" wagon?

Please also tell me how bringing in people from other countries are helping out our own people, like the Zim boy's? Surely you will be a bit upset if we start putting other countries players in Bafana bafana to help out with the really s:mad: ty soccer team!
The SAAF for years had some of the best training in the world and all who deserved to pass passed black or white!
What gets me is that those that did not have what it took, goes on the discrimination wagon, get a second or third go. Then get to go solo to only a few months later break our planes! I told you so ! We say and wonder when the next one will be.

Non pales should remember that it was infact pales that voted to change the country's laws.I for one are all for transformation as this makes sense, we can become a strong nation if more people are part of the industry and all walks of life are represented.But if you don't have what it takes that does not make all pale people racist!

It has been 12 years! We as aviators and the aviation industry has only one purpose and that is to keep every one in the Air safe! We can not have below average people operating planes or controlling them. Be a realise Afriviation! Will you take your kids or wife to a doctor that you know is not a good doctor?

Felicia on E (or coke) asked an ATC why they dont appoint people of colour who even below average can gain experience ect. Please tell me will you fly around knowing that the controllers might gain experience after you make use of your tcas to avoid another plane ?

To all who have made it because of hard work hat's of to you. To those who can not make it maybe aviation is not for you try something else .....like maybe become a doctor!:ok:

Afriviation,

It Sickens me to hear the same old apartheid story from individuals whom does not perform to par or just generally f up in their job.I'm certain that most individuals on this forums shares this sentiments with me.

You seem like a intelligent person, so let me try and explain why this fast tracking of the BEE principal cannot work in the short run by explaining the situation currently experienced in the Engineering field.

Let's just ignore the injustices that has been commited for a moment.

I gather rom your previous posts it doesn't seem that you have worked in any other professional field before.

Your government enforced BEE on private enterpises. So, if you want a government contract or any work from the government be it local or national work you should have a BEE entity working with you either within the company (should have BEE employees) or working with such an company.
A large percentage of the times these individuals are absolutely useless, meaning that they have nothing to contribute in succesfully completing the project, and is basically just keeping the seat warm and keeping somebody else that could have been productive out of a job. When a contract is awarded to an BEE company, this company subcontracts another company usually "Pale" to do the job because they do not have the knowledge or know how to successfully complete the job. Another situation that , occurs is that the work gets done but it is riddled with mistakes that it is not usefull and should be redone.
This knowledge is gained through years and years of experience, not by fast tracking the system to benefit a particular race.

We cannot allow this to happen in the cockpit environment.
There it is not ok for something not to be 100% correct.You are responsible not only for your own life, but the lives of your passengers as well.

You've been dodging this question before. It's been asked before by other posters as well. Show me at any flight school an coloured individual answering the telephone or helping other students. Lots of white guys doing it that might not have the financial means that do this for an hours worth of flying. In our current situation it is much easier to attain funds for a coloured person wether it be sponsorship or applying to the airforce or any other organization that has transformation on the agenda. So your Bull****, story of coloured people not having enough money or the lack of a opportunity does not fly. Sorry Buddy

Thus, Transformation is necessary, but it will take a while. Fast tracking the process is definitely not the answer.
I personally have no problem with diversifying the cockpit as long as these individuals has shown the competence as well as the passion and willingness to make it a success and work your arse off for it, and not to right previous injustices commited.

Afriman I'm not even going to waste my time..........if you would have the manners to have a look at my profile you would see that I infact have a proper job. AGAIN have worked damn hard to acieve it and am proud of where I am. I didn't demand or get it on a plate like so many of your brethren.
And don't sit there on your mighty horse non pale face as you have no idea where I'm from and where I've been, because man if you knew you'd be rather surprised and shocked at my background.
Now back off you :mad: and get on with something that is both intelligable and interesting.

Afriviation, you are making good point - unfortunately you are complaining to the the wrong crowd...
You should be talking to your Government instead.
You are unhappy with the fact that the airlines are not putting enough emphasis on broadbase BEE participation and color-transformation in the Flight operations area.
But of course, don't be surprised - that is what the government wants - and that's is exactly what airlines deliver.
The Government is the one that refuses (or unable to) consistently to come up with a clear and simple definition of BEE - targets, goals and objectives...
The Government is also the one that assigned lower priority on broadbase BEE participation and elevated to the top the importance of equity participation by few as sufficient to meet BEE (blurred) targets.
Surely you are not blaming the operations for the fault occurring on a strategic level?
Or do you believe that the board of directors of a (government owned) airline is not capable of recognising a gap in an important strategic area and letting the tail wag the dog?
Don't be naive...
You must be blind - or unwilling - to see the ordinary citizens in SA embracing the transformation values and standing up behind the principle of BEE - only to be let down by few (and their close friends) in power with own agenda...

I am not a Pilot, so I appologise for butting in here; but I do work for a Commercial Helicopter Charter Company, (Which needs to remain anonomous as I am not writing for them, but myself) and have done so for 10 years. I am not pale, I am white, middle aged, and female, so as far as BEE is concerned, PLEASE do not expect sympathy from me - my position is TOTALLY replacable!
Afri, let me tell you, in the 10 years I've worked here, NOT ONE non-white Commercial Helicopter Pilot with over 1000 hours of flying experience (Insurance requirement) has yet applied to fly here! NEITHER has ONE non-white, QUALIFIED Helicopter Engineer ever applied to work here. Where are these people? Are you implying that all Entrepeneurs who started their own businesses, by their own sweat and hard work, should now run out collecting people from the street and pay out their own money to train them? WHY?
It is really time that everyone stopped hiding behind the old excuse of Apartheid being to blame for every damn thing that goes amiss in this Country and people's personal lives. For your information - I was the product of what in the old days was called a "Broken Home" and my dad was an alcoholic and my mother had to work 2 jobs to feed us:- Boo Hoo, Big Deal! Let those who didn't grow up tough throw the first Party!
Did anyone give me a hand-out, because of my depraved childhood? No! - In those days, it was something to be ashamed of, so you shut up about it! I don't sympathise - I had to pay a bloody fortune to an ex-government school, turned so-called Model C through no fault of mine, and my kid got an A-class Matric, but could not go to Varsity 'cos the loan program was only for blacks. And my youngest child goes to a so-called 'white' school, which also costs me a fortune, but it is my local school so I have no option, and she is one of only 5 white kids in her class, and I live in a so-called 'white' suburb, and there are only 3 white families in the street, and we are the only 3 families without a car in the street! (Sometimes our non-white neighbours offer us lifts to the shops!)
Your suggestions are immature and rediculous! Read these threads properly! The CAA has been mentioned by you and several others here but it has definately detriorated in the last few years, and that is a FACT - They can't even keep a Helicopter which has been grounded for 2 years on the ground in Cape Town, lets blame it on Apartheid, why don't we! BEE is all very well, but you want to ask a one-man family business to fire his family and appoint outsiders - how do you fathom that?
GET WITH IT!
(My appologies to the Pilots, thanks for keeping our skies safe, but I just had to have my say)

Justaworker you are welcome anytime.Nicely put and agree with you whole heartedly on the matter.
Thankyou ma'am for giving us your perspective.:ok:

With black guys like this coming trough the ranks, what is going to happen to our SA? They just want and want and want.:yuk:

Afriviation, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that you should NOT have been trained as a pilot by the government for free.

Your training which cost more than R500,000.00 at least could have been better put to use by sending 250 unemployed squatters on a R2000,00 matric course. They could then could get better jobs!! As you so succintly pointed out, blacks do have extended families and are very supportive of them. So, these 250 matriculants could have got better jobs and supported say, six, people each. So every time you step aboard the aircraft, spare a thought for the 1750 poor starving squatters who sacrificed so that YOU could be in your shiny little uniform.

When you become a Captain, say in 18 years time, the next generation of six kids each will have been born. So for the price of your four bars, my ungrateful little friend, more than TEN THOUSAND people could have had a better future.

Training black pilots is obviously turning out specimens such as yourself, its clearly a partial failure.

They could instead spend R30 on sunvisors for the aircraft with a picture of a smiling black oke on the outside to keep the punters thinking you are flying them!:}

Whilst we do the hard work of a) flying them and b) putting up with arseholes like you with a forced smile:yuk: