Balmoral downsizing ???
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Herewith some extracts from the Raytheon web site.....
RAYTHEON
STANDARDS OF BUSINESS ETHICS AND CONDUCT
Our Reputation —A Foundation Built on Personal Integrity and Ethical Principles
Throughout its history, Raytheon has been a global leader in technology and systems development. Our continued growth, profitability, and prosperity are linked to our employees’ ability to make decisions that are consistent with Raytheon’s business values and core ethical principles. By embedding these business values and principles in our policies and practices, Raytheon has established an ethical business culture that is accepted by its employees and woven into the fabric of the ways in which we work. We are an exceptional company, committed to:
• Integrity - We are honest and forthright in our dealings with employees, customers, suppliers, team-mates, competitors, shareholders, and the community. We conduct our business with respect for laws and regulations, and we promote individual responsibility to ensure that all actions are based on the highest ethical standards.
• Respect - We treat others as we would want to be treated - attentive to personal dignity and receptive to diversity of ideas. We recognize the value that comes from respecting individuality, personal experience, and varied heritages.
• Teamwork - We value teams because they promote trust, openness, challenge, opportunity and growth. We join with each other, our customers and our suppliers to provide high-value solutions to complex problems, requirements, and demands.
• Citizenship - We give back to the communities where we live and work. We serve as stewards of the environment - and strive to leave the world better for having been a good corporate citizen in the global marketplace.
These principles support and guide our leadership in establishing the strategic direction of the company. Our employees, representatives, and suppliers are expected to conduct their business in accordance with these ethical principles. We must do more than be compliant with laws, regulations and policies; we must work according to our ethical principles and endeavour to conduct ourselves in a manner beyond reproach. Raytheon’s reputation is based on the personal integrity of each of its employees and those with whom we do business. Sound judgment must be exercised in the service of our reputation as a global business leader, employer of choice, and good corporate citizen.
Promote Fair Trade and Free Enterprise— Boycotts and Price Fixing Erode Public Trust
Maintaining a level playing field in the course of doing business fosters fair play, promotes healthy competition and contributes to keeping the global marketplace dynamic and robust. When a company has an unfair advantage in the marketplace, competition is stifled and customers are negatively affected.
Raytheon promotes fair trade and free enterprise. Many of the countries in which Raytheon operates have enacted antitrust laws that prohibit unlawful “restraint of trade” and our company rigorously observes these statutes and regulations. Although these laws will vary from country to country, the antitrust laws of the United States and the European Union are representative of typical statutes. Generally, such laws prohibit restrictive trade agreements and/or practices that may reduce competition without providing beneficial effects to consumers. Such agreements and/or practices violate both public policy and Raytheon policy.
Prohibited “restraint of trade” practices that violate antitrust laws generally include:
• Agreements and understandings among competitors to fix or control prices
• Boycotts of specified suppliers or customers
• Efforts to misrepresent, disparage, or harass competitors
• Coordinating with competitors to allocate customers and/or territories
• Limitations on the production or sale of products or product lines for anticompetitive purposes
• Contracts or other arrangements that involve exclusive dealing
• Tie-in sales or other restrictive agreements with suppliers and customers
• Price discrimination
• Other restrictive terms of sale as between customers U.S. law prohibits U.S. firms and persons (and their controlled foreign subsidiaries) from complying with foreign countries’ boycotts against countries friendly to the United States, and from providing information concerning business relationships with boycotted countries.
Well, this certainly makes interesting reading Seeing that the aircraft used by AA in Kenya belong to - yes you guessed it - Raytheon!!!
Come on guys - get a life. If AA's role as Raytheon partner doesn't stink in being able to make lower bids, coupled to the "grants" that they receive, then who else stands a chance of doing business?? Just a thought - is it possibly Raytheon and not AA who are guilty here, or does Raytheon even know what their partners are up to??
RAYTHEON
STANDARDS OF BUSINESS ETHICS AND CONDUCT
Our Reputation —A Foundation Built on Personal Integrity and Ethical Principles
Throughout its history, Raytheon has been a global leader in technology and systems development. Our continued growth, profitability, and prosperity are linked to our employees’ ability to make decisions that are consistent with Raytheon’s business values and core ethical principles. By embedding these business values and principles in our policies and practices, Raytheon has established an ethical business culture that is accepted by its employees and woven into the fabric of the ways in which we work. We are an exceptional company, committed to:
• Integrity - We are honest and forthright in our dealings with employees, customers, suppliers, team-mates, competitors, shareholders, and the community. We conduct our business with respect for laws and regulations, and we promote individual responsibility to ensure that all actions are based on the highest ethical standards.
• Respect - We treat others as we would want to be treated - attentive to personal dignity and receptive to diversity of ideas. We recognize the value that comes from respecting individuality, personal experience, and varied heritages.
• Teamwork - We value teams because they promote trust, openness, challenge, opportunity and growth. We join with each other, our customers and our suppliers to provide high-value solutions to complex problems, requirements, and demands.
• Citizenship - We give back to the communities where we live and work. We serve as stewards of the environment - and strive to leave the world better for having been a good corporate citizen in the global marketplace.
These principles support and guide our leadership in establishing the strategic direction of the company. Our employees, representatives, and suppliers are expected to conduct their business in accordance with these ethical principles. We must do more than be compliant with laws, regulations and policies; we must work according to our ethical principles and endeavour to conduct ourselves in a manner beyond reproach. Raytheon’s reputation is based on the personal integrity of each of its employees and those with whom we do business. Sound judgment must be exercised in the service of our reputation as a global business leader, employer of choice, and good corporate citizen.
Promote Fair Trade and Free Enterprise— Boycotts and Price Fixing Erode Public Trust
Maintaining a level playing field in the course of doing business fosters fair play, promotes healthy competition and contributes to keeping the global marketplace dynamic and robust. When a company has an unfair advantage in the marketplace, competition is stifled and customers are negatively affected.
Raytheon promotes fair trade and free enterprise. Many of the countries in which Raytheon operates have enacted antitrust laws that prohibit unlawful “restraint of trade” and our company rigorously observes these statutes and regulations. Although these laws will vary from country to country, the antitrust laws of the United States and the European Union are representative of typical statutes. Generally, such laws prohibit restrictive trade agreements and/or practices that may reduce competition without providing beneficial effects to consumers. Such agreements and/or practices violate both public policy and Raytheon policy.
Prohibited “restraint of trade” practices that violate antitrust laws generally include:
• Agreements and understandings among competitors to fix or control prices
• Boycotts of specified suppliers or customers
• Efforts to misrepresent, disparage, or harass competitors
• Coordinating with competitors to allocate customers and/or territories
• Limitations on the production or sale of products or product lines for anticompetitive purposes
• Contracts or other arrangements that involve exclusive dealing
• Tie-in sales or other restrictive agreements with suppliers and customers
• Price discrimination
• Other restrictive terms of sale as between customers U.S. law prohibits U.S. firms and persons (and their controlled foreign subsidiaries) from complying with foreign countries’ boycotts against countries friendly to the United States, and from providing information concerning business relationships with boycotted countries.
Well, this certainly makes interesting reading Seeing that the aircraft used by AA in Kenya belong to - yes you guessed it - Raytheon!!!
Come on guys - get a life. If AA's role as Raytheon partner doesn't stink in being able to make lower bids, coupled to the "grants" that they receive, then who else stands a chance of doing business?? Just a thought - is it possibly Raytheon and not AA who are guilty here, or does Raytheon even know what their partners are up to??
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You want to tell me that the Cessna Caravan Rep at Wilson isnt going to knok of a couple of dollars or defer a payment here or there to get his machine in on another UN contract??
Ive seen a/c reps virtually throw a/c at Opperators for free until the contract is up and running...??
Thats Bussiness mate.....
Ive seen a/c reps virtually throw a/c at Opperators for free until the contract is up and running...??
Thats Bussiness mate.....
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Phew!!
Good post Current Limiter!
Gravitysux, you have missed the point entirely! Good business is when the distributor assists the customer to get the contract and offers an aircraft for all the reasons that you gave, to make a sale. When the contract operator IS the distributor and is taking work away from the Raytheon customer, then that is unethical, unfair and I could go on quoting the above attachment.
This saga looks more and more interesting by the minute! Raytheon must look at their Danish and South African/UK distributors for a start. What they have posted on their website as a code of conduct and how they say they expect their distributors in the field to operate are very far apart.
Not a difficult case for a jury to decide on, should a class action suit be filed if some of the affected operators got together on this score. Balmoral, I am sure are not the only victims.
Gravitysux, you have missed the point entirely! Good business is when the distributor assists the customer to get the contract and offers an aircraft for all the reasons that you gave, to make a sale. When the contract operator IS the distributor and is taking work away from the Raytheon customer, then that is unethical, unfair and I could go on quoting the above attachment.
This saga looks more and more interesting by the minute! Raytheon must look at their Danish and South African/UK distributors for a start. What they have posted on their website as a code of conduct and how they say they expect their distributors in the field to operate are very far apart.
Not a difficult case for a jury to decide on, should a class action suit be filed if some of the affected operators got together on this score. Balmoral, I am sure are not the only victims.
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Makulu Baas
"Also what about an employee of a contract company, who leaves , joins the organisation awarding the contracts , then six months later leaves them only to return to the contract company to head up their Aviation section,?? conspiricy ?"
Oh? Please, do tell us more.......... I think conspiracy is the mildest way of putting it..... how about industrial espionage?
"Perhaps we should adopt the same attitude of job protection as the eurozone, especially when last week they approached NAC for aircraft."
Err, that's leaving it somewhat late isn't it?!!! Isn't this contract changing over at the end of the month? How can AA have aircraft in place in Afghanistan before then? Especially given that they need to find them for Angola too.... I wonder what the UN's view will be if AA can't produce in time? If it were me I'd be severely hacked off to say the least.
Current Limiter
What an interesting post, thank-you very much! BTW, would it mean anything to you if I was to say digit minus?
"Well, this certainly makes interesting reading Seeing that the aircraft used by AA in Kenya belong to - yes you guessed it - Raytheon!!!"
I wonder if anyone has passed on all this information to Raytheon? Quite possibly they'd take exception at such facts.
"Just a thought - is it possibly Raytheon and not AA who are guilty here, or does Raytheon even know what their partners are up to??"
I'd be pretty sure they havn't got a clue what AA are up to, I think it's time they did........
Gravitysux
[I]"Ive seen a/c reps virtually throw a/c at Opperators for free until the contract is up and running...??"[/B]
I think you may have missed the point..... AA havn't reduced the price to get a contract up & running, they've submitted a bid which is the lowest because they appear to receive some kind of 'grant', they are a Raytheon aircraft so are, in a nutshell, putting their own customers out of work (doesn't really fit in with the Raytheon ethics quoted by current limiter) & would seem to have access to cheaper spares.
Makulu Baas
LOL!! Good point re the smell currently emanating from Denmark, smells lige pig muck but it isn't (just as distasteful though).
I still wonder how AA would propose to have aircraft in place in time? My spies tell me that they're proposing using a pair of F registered aircraft & a 5Y registered example. Is that in keeping with their aoc / this contract??
What a shame Max Torque doesn't have anything else to say...... his comments were so, er, interesting. I guess he might be back to flying LB around.
V1 Rotate
Do you still make home-videos?
Regards
Anon
"Also what about an employee of a contract company, who leaves , joins the organisation awarding the contracts , then six months later leaves them only to return to the contract company to head up their Aviation section,?? conspiricy ?"
Oh? Please, do tell us more.......... I think conspiracy is the mildest way of putting it..... how about industrial espionage?
"Perhaps we should adopt the same attitude of job protection as the eurozone, especially when last week they approached NAC for aircraft."
Err, that's leaving it somewhat late isn't it?!!! Isn't this contract changing over at the end of the month? How can AA have aircraft in place in Afghanistan before then? Especially given that they need to find them for Angola too.... I wonder what the UN's view will be if AA can't produce in time? If it were me I'd be severely hacked off to say the least.
Current Limiter
What an interesting post, thank-you very much! BTW, would it mean anything to you if I was to say digit minus?
"Well, this certainly makes interesting reading Seeing that the aircraft used by AA in Kenya belong to - yes you guessed it - Raytheon!!!"
I wonder if anyone has passed on all this information to Raytheon? Quite possibly they'd take exception at such facts.
"Just a thought - is it possibly Raytheon and not AA who are guilty here, or does Raytheon even know what their partners are up to??"
I'd be pretty sure they havn't got a clue what AA are up to, I think it's time they did........
Gravitysux
[I]"Ive seen a/c reps virtually throw a/c at Opperators for free until the contract is up and running...??"[/B]
I think you may have missed the point..... AA havn't reduced the price to get a contract up & running, they've submitted a bid which is the lowest because they appear to receive some kind of 'grant', they are a Raytheon aircraft so are, in a nutshell, putting their own customers out of work (doesn't really fit in with the Raytheon ethics quoted by current limiter) & would seem to have access to cheaper spares.
Makulu Baas
LOL!! Good point re the smell currently emanating from Denmark, smells lige pig muck but it isn't (just as distasteful though).I still wonder how AA would propose to have aircraft in place in time? My spies tell me that they're proposing using a pair of F registered aircraft & a 5Y registered example. Is that in keeping with their aoc / this contract??
What a shame Max Torque doesn't have anything else to say...... his comments were so, er, interesting. I guess he might be back to flying LB around.
V1 Rotate
Do you still make home-videos?
Regards
Anon
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all gone quiet
Is it a sign of things to come,that replies from the european front have ended.Any idea's if they will be arriving with the F registered aircraft in Kabul?
Time will tell.
P'S heard a little rumour that the european boys might not even make it at all............
Time will tell.
P'S heard a little rumour that the european boys might not even make it at all............
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Are they on the way??????
Well, 5 days to go....................
As I can't get in touch with my spies in the area does anyone know if AA have made any progress in getting aircraft in-theatre yet??
I heard a rumour a few days ago that they'd said they'd be there on the 27th.
The clock is ticking.........
As I can't get in touch with my spies in the area does anyone know if AA have made any progress in getting aircraft in-theatre yet??
I heard a rumour a few days ago that they'd said they'd be there on the 27th.
The clock is ticking.........
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No news???
Afternoon Gents,
Well it all seems quiet on the Eastern front.......
Is there any news on when / how / if our continental cousins will make it to Kabul? Or are they already there???? If not does anyone in Denmark know if they've left?
I understand that these aircraft will need to be transferred to the Danish register.... does anyone know how easy it is to re-register from 5Y / F to OY? Can't imagine that it's without problems. Will the aircraft require any specific mods etc?
The clock is still ticking..... 3 days for them to be in place & ready to operate....... not long is it
What will the UN have to say if they're not there in time??
Well, enough of this, lunch beckons
Anon
Well it all seems quiet on the Eastern front.......
Is there any news on when / how / if our continental cousins will make it to Kabul? Or are they already there???? If not does anyone in Denmark know if they've left?
I understand that these aircraft will need to be transferred to the Danish register.... does anyone know how easy it is to re-register from 5Y / F to OY? Can't imagine that it's without problems. Will the aircraft require any specific mods etc?
The clock is still ticking..... 3 days for them to be in place & ready to operate....... not long is it
What will the UN have to say if they're not there in time??Well, enough of this, lunch beckons
Anon
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The latest information that I now have is that under terms of the of the contracts signed with our friends AA and the UN they should have had all aircraft in place and ready to go by midnight last night.
So far they have 2 Kingairs in Angola ready for inspection without paperwork, and a small problem with import duties and insurance costs. Perhaps Polly should have done his homework more thoroughly on operating costs and conditions.
they have another aircraft in position in Pakistan, however this is a Kenyan aircraft and crew, now would this mean they have the necessary permissions from the Kenyan authorities to operated on their operating certificate out of the country ?? I did think AA was a Danish company ? perhaps I am wrong here, but last time I looked they were.
Perhaps we should also look closely at the insurance implications should they not have the aircraft on their operating certificate. How many of the organisations flying with them would be happy to find out in the event of an incident, that their personel were covered for zip. Kenyan or French register, its not Danish no matter how you look at it.
As for the remaining aircraft, are they to be pulled from the proverbial magicians hat or are they still sitting on the ground at home base ?
I think maybe some interesting times are at hand, not only do they use unfair business practices to gain contracts , they are now not even sticking to the basic conditions outlined in the UN's contracts, Aircraft to be positioned at a given time to be able to take over from the existing operator. All aircraft to be on the same operating certificate. (this was a condition insisted on by the UN on a recent contract, where the operator had to replace several aircraft ).
Are we now going to see the UN as the toothless dinosaur it is, or are we going to be surprised and see them use the teeth they possess, or maybe just ask George Junior to put an addendum to the state of the union address to include "rogue operators".
So far they have 2 Kingairs in Angola ready for inspection without paperwork, and a small problem with import duties and insurance costs. Perhaps Polly should have done his homework more thoroughly on operating costs and conditions.
they have another aircraft in position in Pakistan, however this is a Kenyan aircraft and crew, now would this mean they have the necessary permissions from the Kenyan authorities to operated on their operating certificate out of the country ?? I did think AA was a Danish company ? perhaps I am wrong here, but last time I looked they were.
Perhaps we should also look closely at the insurance implications should they not have the aircraft on their operating certificate. How many of the organisations flying with them would be happy to find out in the event of an incident, that their personel were covered for zip. Kenyan or French register, its not Danish no matter how you look at it.
As for the remaining aircraft, are they to be pulled from the proverbial magicians hat or are they still sitting on the ground at home base ?
I think maybe some interesting times are at hand, not only do they use unfair business practices to gain contracts , they are now not even sticking to the basic conditions outlined in the UN's contracts, Aircraft to be positioned at a given time to be able to take over from the existing operator. All aircraft to be on the same operating certificate. (this was a condition insisted on by the UN on a recent contract, where the operator had to replace several aircraft ).
Are we now going to see the UN as the toothless dinosaur it is, or are we going to be surprised and see them use the teeth they possess, or maybe just ask George Junior to put an addendum to the state of the union address to include "rogue operators".
Last edited by Makulu Baas; 30th Jan 2003 at 17:02.
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found a little info to add to the AA tide of woes to quote possibly from one who works for them, Oscar Yankee.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ion+assistance
Well std. requirements are first of all the right to fly Danish registred aircraft - which means a danish or a JAA license, preferably with endorsements for the Citation (2 I think) BE200 and BE1900. While chaps with this profile are somewhat rare, less will probably do it, but everything boils down to the old supply & demand thing.
Std. contracts are for 3-6 months on and then off untill they need you again basically. Some flexibility is expected though. Generally it is a good outfit. Treat them well, and they will treat you well....
so where do these kenyan aircraft fit into the picture ?
also rumoured is that the one aircraft on station for the UN is owned by no other than raytheon. bearing out the points made by current limiter.
As for AA treating well. "3 to 6 month on the off until they need you," and $3500 a month to work in the conditions they do, with nothing for the time you are not needed. Is this really treating employees "well" , I certainly think not.
Perhaps it will not be such a bad thing for AA to disappear from the contract market all together,
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ion+assistance
Well std. requirements are first of all the right to fly Danish registred aircraft - which means a danish or a JAA license, preferably with endorsements for the Citation (2 I think) BE200 and BE1900. While chaps with this profile are somewhat rare, less will probably do it, but everything boils down to the old supply & demand thing.
Std. contracts are for 3-6 months on and then off untill they need you again basically. Some flexibility is expected though. Generally it is a good outfit. Treat them well, and they will treat you well....
so where do these kenyan aircraft fit into the picture ?
also rumoured is that the one aircraft on station for the UN is owned by no other than raytheon. bearing out the points made by current limiter.
As for AA treating well. "3 to 6 month on the off until they need you," and $3500 a month to work in the conditions they do, with nothing for the time you are not needed. Is this really treating employees "well" , I certainly think not.
Perhaps it will not be such a bad thing for AA to disappear from the contract market all together,
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Morning Gents,
Makulu Baas
"The latest information that I now have is that under terms of the of the contracts signed with our friends AA and the UN they should have had all aircraft in place and ready to go by midnight last night."
Ooops
"So far they have 2 Kingairs in Angola ready for inspection without paperwork, and a small problem with import duties and insurance costs."
Not a particularly illustrious start then!
"Perhaps Polly should have done his homework more thoroughly on operating costs and conditions."
Would that be Polly the Belgian Waffle???
"they have another aircraft in position in Pakistan, however this is a Kenyan aircraft and crew, now would this mean they have the necessary permissions from the Kenyan authorities to operated on their operating certificate out of the country ?? I did think AA was a Danish company ? perhaps I am wrong here, but last time I looked they were."
I do believe you're correct, whilst they may well have a Kenyan subsidiary I'd be confident in guessing that it was AA Denmark which got the contracts, not AA Kenya........
"Perhaps we should also look closely at the insurance implications should they not have the aircraft on their operating certificate. How many of the organisations flying with them would be happy to find out in the event of an incident, that their personel were covered for zip. Kenyan or French register, its not Danish no matter how you look at it. "
I'd presume the UN would be more than a little miffed to find that out? Miffed enough to kick AA into touch???
"As for the remaining aircraft, are they to be pulled from the proverbial magicians hat or are they still sitting on the ground at home base ?"
Last info I had was about 24hrs ago when apparantly the other two aircraft for Afghanistan were still sitting in Denmark.
"I think maybe some interesting times are at hand, not only do they use unfair business practices to gain contracts , they are now not even sticking to the basic conditions outlined in the UN's contracts, Aircraft to be positioned at a given time to be able to take over from the existing operator. All aircraft to be on the same operating certificate. (this was a condition insisted on by the UN on a recent contract, where the operator had to replace several aircraft )."
Interesting times is one way of putting it!! I understand that the F-28 operated in Afghanistan is u/s at the moment...... By the looks of it tomorrow the UN will have a capacity of 19 seats there instead of 121..... I bet they enjoy that, not!
"Are we now going to see the UN as the toothless dinosaur it is, or are we going to be surprised and see them use the teeth they possess, or maybe just ask George Junior to put an addendum to the state of the union address to include "rogue operators".
The UN, an ironically named organisation........ One can only hope for them to be fair to all interested parties & to not stand for being messed around by 'rogue operators'. After all, if they can't get aeroplanes over there on time how will they perform the rest of the time?
"also rumoured is that the one aircraft on station for the UN is owned by no other than raytheon. bearing out the points made by current limiter."
Havn't Raytheon and / or another operator been bitten by that one in the past & been forced to pull aircraft off contract?
"As for AA treating well. "3 to 6 month on the off until they need you," and $3500 a month to work in the conditions they do, with nothing for the time you are not needed. Is this really treating employees "well" , I certainly think not."
Crap deal . I reckon the way an operator treats it's crew is a fine barometer of their general attitude.
Anon
Makulu Baas
"The latest information that I now have is that under terms of the of the contracts signed with our friends AA and the UN they should have had all aircraft in place and ready to go by midnight last night."
Ooops
"So far they have 2 Kingairs in Angola ready for inspection without paperwork, and a small problem with import duties and insurance costs."
Not a particularly illustrious start then!
"Perhaps Polly should have done his homework more thoroughly on operating costs and conditions."
Would that be Polly the Belgian Waffle???
"they have another aircraft in position in Pakistan, however this is a Kenyan aircraft and crew, now would this mean they have the necessary permissions from the Kenyan authorities to operated on their operating certificate out of the country ?? I did think AA was a Danish company ? perhaps I am wrong here, but last time I looked they were."
I do believe you're correct, whilst they may well have a Kenyan subsidiary I'd be confident in guessing that it was AA Denmark which got the contracts, not AA Kenya........
"Perhaps we should also look closely at the insurance implications should they not have the aircraft on their operating certificate. How many of the organisations flying with them would be happy to find out in the event of an incident, that their personel were covered for zip. Kenyan or French register, its not Danish no matter how you look at it. "
I'd presume the UN would be more than a little miffed to find that out? Miffed enough to kick AA into touch???
"As for the remaining aircraft, are they to be pulled from the proverbial magicians hat or are they still sitting on the ground at home base ?"
Last info I had was about 24hrs ago when apparantly the other two aircraft for Afghanistan were still sitting in Denmark.
"I think maybe some interesting times are at hand, not only do they use unfair business practices to gain contracts , they are now not even sticking to the basic conditions outlined in the UN's contracts, Aircraft to be positioned at a given time to be able to take over from the existing operator. All aircraft to be on the same operating certificate. (this was a condition insisted on by the UN on a recent contract, where the operator had to replace several aircraft )."
Interesting times is one way of putting it!! I understand that the F-28 operated in Afghanistan is u/s at the moment...... By the looks of it tomorrow the UN will have a capacity of 19 seats there instead of 121..... I bet they enjoy that, not!
"Are we now going to see the UN as the toothless dinosaur it is, or are we going to be surprised and see them use the teeth they possess, or maybe just ask George Junior to put an addendum to the state of the union address to include "rogue operators".
The UN, an ironically named organisation........ One can only hope for them to be fair to all interested parties & to not stand for being messed around by 'rogue operators'. After all, if they can't get aeroplanes over there on time how will they perform the rest of the time?
"also rumoured is that the one aircraft on station for the UN is owned by no other than raytheon. bearing out the points made by current limiter."
Havn't Raytheon and / or another operator been bitten by that one in the past & been forced to pull aircraft off contract?
"As for AA treating well. "3 to 6 month on the off until they need you," and $3500 a month to work in the conditions they do, with nothing for the time you are not needed. Is this really treating employees "well" , I certainly think not."
Crap deal
. I reckon the way an operator treats it's crew is a fine barometer of their general attitude.Anon
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Looks as though the dust is settling on this one, Balmoral seems to have fallen into the preverbial pile of poo and come up with a diamond between their teeth. :-)
The danish invasion didn't manage to get a foot hold into Angola and they were duly chased away by the UN. However I hear that their bid into Afghanistan was more successful. The UN being lenient and allowing them a grace period to set up and get going.
On that we shall see what happens, so far rumoured is that Balmoral are helping out during this "grace" period until they get their orders to pack and leave, this, i understand is all very dependant on what happens with the 2 remaining AA aircraft that are still not on station.
What still begs a question is have they resloved the Kenyan operating issue, as I understand it they still require CAA permission to be operating. So far this hasn't been given, or if it has it's only for a limited time... try 14 days....As they are now operating, does this mean they are legal and insured ???
As for Balmoral, maybe a job well done, but time will tell. Who knows how the UN works and how closely they will look at all operators and their practices.
The danish invasion didn't manage to get a foot hold into Angola and they were duly chased away by the UN. However I hear that their bid into Afghanistan was more successful. The UN being lenient and allowing them a grace period to set up and get going.
On that we shall see what happens, so far rumoured is that Balmoral are helping out during this "grace" period until they get their orders to pack and leave, this, i understand is all very dependant on what happens with the 2 remaining AA aircraft that are still not on station.
What still begs a question is have they resloved the Kenyan operating issue, as I understand it they still require CAA permission to be operating. So far this hasn't been given, or if it has it's only for a limited time... try 14 days....As they are now operating, does this mean they are legal and insured ???
As for Balmoral, maybe a job well done, but time will tell. Who knows how the UN works and how closely they will look at all operators and their practices.
Now that I have been quoted I might as well drop a few lines.....
First of all. I am not with AA anymore, left them 2½ years ago.
The 5 lines I wrote abot the conditions at AA, are of course not really covering everything in detail, but I stand by my comment that if you treat them well they will do so to you.
Then I feel the need to adress a few issues. AA is not the dealer of anything (except aircraft and crew for UN+ICRC type missions.) The holding company who owns AA, has another company that among other things represents Beechcraft/Raytheon in Scandinavia. If you think that AA gets to buy aircraft and spares at some discounted rate from Raytheon due to this relationship, then I think you do non know much about business. (And I can personally vouch for the fact that we had to bloody scream for spares sometimes like everyone else.) Actually AA missed some business, and the oppurtunity to hire some good people in my time specifically due to the relationship with the Raytheon rep.
Subsidies.......hmmm..... I have not heard that one before. I find this very, very unlikely. If so they are very well hidden, and frankly I can not see from who they should get this ?? If anyone has some evidence, hard or circumstantial (don't know if that's spelled right) I would like to hear about it.
Either ways.....I thought that Balmoral won these contracts (at least the ones in Kabul) from AA a couple years ago, and now AA has won them back ?? I do not hear any sympathy for the AA guys that lost their jobs at that time ??
The last thing. It seems a little exaggerated to blame AA for the hardship of getting a JAR Flightcrew validation.....????
Come on.....
I understand that the people about to lose their jobs are dissapointed, and I feel sorry for them. I hope their employer will be able to find new work for them.
Rgds.
First of all. I am not with AA anymore, left them 2½ years ago.
The 5 lines I wrote abot the conditions at AA, are of course not really covering everything in detail, but I stand by my comment that if you treat them well they will do so to you.
Then I feel the need to adress a few issues. AA is not the dealer of anything (except aircraft and crew for UN+ICRC type missions.) The holding company who owns AA, has another company that among other things represents Beechcraft/Raytheon in Scandinavia. If you think that AA gets to buy aircraft and spares at some discounted rate from Raytheon due to this relationship, then I think you do non know much about business. (And I can personally vouch for the fact that we had to bloody scream for spares sometimes like everyone else.) Actually AA missed some business, and the oppurtunity to hire some good people in my time specifically due to the relationship with the Raytheon rep.
Subsidies.......hmmm..... I have not heard that one before. I find this very, very unlikely. If so they are very well hidden, and frankly I can not see from who they should get this ?? If anyone has some evidence, hard or circumstantial (don't know if that's spelled right) I would like to hear about it.
Either ways.....I thought that Balmoral won these contracts (at least the ones in Kabul) from AA a couple years ago, and now AA has won them back ?? I do not hear any sympathy for the AA guys that lost their jobs at that time ??
The last thing. It seems a little exaggerated to blame AA for the hardship of getting a JAR Flightcrew validation.....????
Come on.....
I understand that the people about to lose their jobs are dissapointed, and I feel sorry for them. I hope their employer will be able to find new work for them.
Rgds.
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Subsidies??
A little blue and white bird has whispered in my ear that they are not subsidized, but that the Danish goverment pays for the first year of a UN and related agencies contract as a donation to the UN. They have a certain amount available every year.On the second year the UN has to pay....... Does that makes sence why they keep some contracts only for a year before losing them to some South African operators, only to rewin the bid the following year. One of the South African operators told me they rechearched the deal extensivly for holes, but it is as watertight as a ducks ass. Well if its true who will be able to beat it? Nobody I ever worked for! This little song was confirmed by 2 of the AA drivers I got to know quite well. For AA not to pull the rabbit out of the hat in time has happened before. They showed up 14 days lat in the DRC as well and was sent home. So it looks like they are working on a reputation of not being able to deliver.
Only time will tell
Only time will tell
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I wonder if any of the bosses of any of the companies mentioned would consider posting a response.
It irks me to see the crew snapping at each other when they are the "workers" - sent out to bring in the lolly under any condition - and most of the time working together - especially in the air - where there is no place for vendettas or petty politics. At the end of the day, it is the company heads that get situations like these to occur.
Nice place to see a lot of rumour and suggestive reasoning though.
Regardless of who has done what to whom for how much - it would be an ideal world where the playing field has the same rules for all sides and the (one and only) referee blows the whistle for all parties according to the same rule book. Keep it professional guys and gals - dont let the snide asides on this forum stop you all from remaining friends and professional partners in the air!
It irks me to see the crew snapping at each other when they are the "workers" - sent out to bring in the lolly under any condition - and most of the time working together - especially in the air - where there is no place for vendettas or petty politics. At the end of the day, it is the company heads that get situations like these to occur.
Nice place to see a lot of rumour and suggestive reasoning though.
Regardless of who has done what to whom for how much - it would be an ideal world where the playing field has the same rules for all sides and the (one and only) referee blows the whistle for all parties according to the same rule book. Keep it professional guys and gals - dont let the snide asides on this forum stop you all from remaining friends and professional partners in the air!
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Mike: Well said.
I've always enjoyed the spirit of co-operation there has been in the field and espescially in the air between crews from AA, Rossair, Balmoral, King Air Services, Airserv, Zimex and all the rest, and the general feeling that management could mess with each other and that was a seperate and irrelevant issue on a daily basis.
Information has been shared, spares have been swapped or transported as a matter of course and other assistance provided over the years between crews who are each other competitors. This thread, whether or not it has any merits, is potentially very damaging to that spirit and it irks me as well to see crew snapping at each other.
We might work for different companys, but I consider the other contract guys as much closer colleagues than airline crew who I know socially. And I would like to keep it that way. Yeah, its tough that some people are out of a job for a while, but as Oscar Yankee pointed out, the shoe was on the other foot twelve months ago, and the Danes didn't scream about that.
The Balmoral crews in Afghanistan have done a great job over the last year, and I have no doubt that they will be somewhere else doing a great job before long. I just hope for them its a place with a better climate than this frozen hellhole- they deserve it
I've always enjoyed the spirit of co-operation there has been in the field and espescially in the air between crews from AA, Rossair, Balmoral, King Air Services, Airserv, Zimex and all the rest, and the general feeling that management could mess with each other and that was a seperate and irrelevant issue on a daily basis.
Information has been shared, spares have been swapped or transported as a matter of course and other assistance provided over the years between crews who are each other competitors. This thread, whether or not it has any merits, is potentially very damaging to that spirit and it irks me as well to see crew snapping at each other.
We might work for different companys, but I consider the other contract guys as much closer colleagues than airline crew who I know socially. And I would like to keep it that way. Yeah, its tough that some people are out of a job for a while, but as Oscar Yankee pointed out, the shoe was on the other foot twelve months ago, and the Danes didn't scream about that.
The Balmoral crews in Afghanistan have done a great job over the last year, and I have no doubt that they will be somewhere else doing a great job before long. I just hope for them its a place with a better climate than this frozen hellhole- they deserve it
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...we band o' brothers.....
Well spoken MT. I have always felt the same. I was just intrerested to see were all this bitching was going to lead to. Hoped it would fizzle out and get to this though. Sad to hear of AA not making it on time, but glad for Balmoral that kept some. I hear the CV's were two feet thick on NAC's desk. One of the only problems I have with to much competition is that it benefits the clients not the Pilots. I saw the fees drop from 8000 to 4500/month since I started contracting 8 years ago. Any comments?
...the time has come the walrus said,
to speak of many things.
of pirate ships and sealing wax,
and cabbages and kings.....
...the time has come the walrus said,
to speak of many things.
of pirate ships and sealing wax,
and cabbages and kings.....
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I agree that we all need to work together. One lesson in aviation is that it is a very small industry. There are very few occasions when a name or company or individual is mentioned that we all know a little about and sometimes a lot. In this industry you cannot afford to have enemies as in a short period you could well require help from that source.
I have always been amazed at the amount of cooperation between the Rossair's, King Air Services, Balmoral etc. The crews have a comraderie second to none and management seem to work together to a large degree. Obviously competition is healthy and so to cooperate yet also compete is a good thing for all of us.
To Oskar Yankee, I think that maybe you have missed a point. I believe that the playing field should be level, I think that we all agree on that score, however there is some pretty strong evidence that it is not where AA are involved. Contraxdog does hit the nail on the head when he makes mention of the fact that contracts are won and then lost for a year, then won again. Bids are submitted that are below the operating cost of the aircraft. Unless AA were a charity and not a business, how can they do that? Unless of course they are receiving a little payment from the Danish Government or some similar source!
There seems to be a perception that there is a huge amount of money to be made in this part of the industry. With the kind of competition and number of players, other options are gaining favour and I strongly believe that margins are getting so tight that corners are going to be cut in an effort to make some cash!
Keep the cooperation going, do not lose the spirit between all of the crews, we are all in the same boat and hopefully with a level sea!!
I have always been amazed at the amount of cooperation between the Rossair's, King Air Services, Balmoral etc. The crews have a comraderie second to none and management seem to work together to a large degree. Obviously competition is healthy and so to cooperate yet also compete is a good thing for all of us.
To Oskar Yankee, I think that maybe you have missed a point. I believe that the playing field should be level, I think that we all agree on that score, however there is some pretty strong evidence that it is not where AA are involved. Contraxdog does hit the nail on the head when he makes mention of the fact that contracts are won and then lost for a year, then won again. Bids are submitted that are below the operating cost of the aircraft. Unless AA were a charity and not a business, how can they do that? Unless of course they are receiving a little payment from the Danish Government or some similar source!
There seems to be a perception that there is a huge amount of money to be made in this part of the industry. With the kind of competition and number of players, other options are gaining favour and I strongly believe that margins are getting so tight that corners are going to be cut in an effort to make some cash!
Keep the cooperation going, do not lose the spirit between all of the crews, we are all in the same boat and hopefully with a level sea!!
I did not miss the point, I too believe the playing field should be level. I just don't think the arguments are tight. Sure the owner of AA is a shrewed businessman, and probably would use any advantage presented to him, but I cannot see the Danish Goverment participate in any kind of "schemes"......
I have never flown a UN contract (except extensions) that was merely one-year contracts, has anyone ?? Maybe a start-up mission, I don't know.......
If there is anything to this at all, I would speculate that it might be more along the lines of the "buy-back" philosophy. Ie. the danish authorities/government tags a UN contribution with a danish label on it. I mean - I have never driven a UN car that was not made in Japan.......
Whether this practice exists or is fair or not, I really do not know.
Rgds. OY
I have never flown a UN contract (except extensions) that was merely one-year contracts, has anyone ?? Maybe a start-up mission, I don't know.......
If there is anything to this at all, I would speculate that it might be more along the lines of the "buy-back" philosophy. Ie. the danish authorities/government tags a UN contribution with a danish label on it. I mean - I have never driven a UN car that was not made in Japan.......
Whether this practice exists or is fair or not, I really do not know.
Rgds. OY