Airline Jock's flying Charter!
Está servira para distraerle.
I don't see any names lying splattered around the place, or have I once again missed something important?
The South African aviation hierarchy appears to be very angst ridden place. There seems to be a tendency toward aggression and an untoward attachment to the jugulars of others. This can only stem from a huge insecurity complex which I am sure can be traced back to the South African school system. Most pilots seem to spend years in Nursery School. Perhaps it's debatable whether any ever climb out of that particular gooey sand pit. After extended Kindergarten there's the middle range encompassing Grades 7 to 9 when pilots are proficient enough at flying solo to enable them to be sent on single crew charters but not yet trained enough to fly with another human being. After that, moving slowly up the scale, the airman arrives at Grades 10 and 11 when the aspiring graduate flies dual in an environment, usually two crew or dual, which can be anything from appallingly grueling to sublime. This is followed by Grade 12, which in South Africa implies Spoories. After that you become a graduate and no one can teach you anything anyway! However the trick in all of this is that once you reach such a level, having fought your way ever upwards, you can teach just about anyone on the rungs below you a few things, or at the least, remind them of that which they might have forgotten or not remembered that they had ever learned!
It's not really very likely that a GA pilot, whatever his experience, will have had the same exhaustive training both in breadth and technique as would have had his airline counterpart, measure for measure? So an airline pilot undertaking DE work under CAA authorisation in SA is hardly likely to be depriving a GA pilot of the same opportunity. The GA pilot would be unlikely to have been able to accumulate the experience and training to enable him to operate as a testing officer across anything like as broad a spectrum as would the Matriculant mentioned right at the beginning of this small paragraph of enlightenment.
As for Brethren of the Air, there is, most unhappily, probably no such being any more. This is a military concept which had its infancy in WWI and became honed to perfection in WWII when the techniques of fighter formation combat techniques were developed. Having said all that, I await the bandits from behind the sun but no rear gunners please!
The South African aviation hierarchy appears to be very angst ridden place. There seems to be a tendency toward aggression and an untoward attachment to the jugulars of others. This can only stem from a huge insecurity complex which I am sure can be traced back to the South African school system. Most pilots seem to spend years in Nursery School. Perhaps it's debatable whether any ever climb out of that particular gooey sand pit. After extended Kindergarten there's the middle range encompassing Grades 7 to 9 when pilots are proficient enough at flying solo to enable them to be sent on single crew charters but not yet trained enough to fly with another human being. After that, moving slowly up the scale, the airman arrives at Grades 10 and 11 when the aspiring graduate flies dual in an environment, usually two crew or dual, which can be anything from appallingly grueling to sublime. This is followed by Grade 12, which in South Africa implies Spoories. After that you become a graduate and no one can teach you anything anyway! However the trick in all of this is that once you reach such a level, having fought your way ever upwards, you can teach just about anyone on the rungs below you a few things, or at the least, remind them of that which they might have forgotten or not remembered that they had ever learned!
It's not really very likely that a GA pilot, whatever his experience, will have had the same exhaustive training both in breadth and technique as would have had his airline counterpart, measure for measure? So an airline pilot undertaking DE work under CAA authorisation in SA is hardly likely to be depriving a GA pilot of the same opportunity. The GA pilot would be unlikely to have been able to accumulate the experience and training to enable him to operate as a testing officer across anything like as broad a spectrum as would the Matriculant mentioned right at the beginning of this small paragraph of enlightenment.
As for Brethren of the Air, there is, most unhappily, probably no such being any more. This is a military concept which had its infancy in WWI and became honed to perfection in WWII when the techniques of fighter formation combat techniques were developed. Having said all that, I await the bandits from behind the sun but no rear gunners please!
Last edited by cavortingcheetah; 10th Jul 2010 at 12:38.
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Maybe the unhappy sources of this posting should approach the charter operators for their opinion on this matter. I fly for one of the majors in RSA and fly charter on the turboprops. In most of the cases when approached to fly its because the client, usually the mining houses have minimum experience requirements for the crew. Crew with the required experience are usually not full time staff for obvious reasons. I enjoy the flying thoroughly. I like sharing experience as well as the dynamic nature of charter. The operators are an integral part of this sort of debate and as such should be asked for their opinion, the response of which I'm sure will be quite simple....they need to get the job done!
Best regards.
Best regards.
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That's a pretty fair response although it does not address the main thrust of the original post as I interpreted it.
This is from thread starter RSA's first post.
'There are a number of South African employed airline pilots doing freelance charter in their off time'
I remark again that RSA has cunningly never made a second post.
I think his point here is that South African pilots who work for airlines, and perhaps in particular and by extension South African Airways, should simply not make themselves available for charter work.
While agreeing with the sentiments, such wishful thinking has, in practical terms, to remain just that. One previous correspondent demonstrated his attitude of consideration to those less fortunate than himself by inquiring if there were a lower mortal on the food chain available to do the job before accepting a charter. It goes back to the adage of always remembering that at some stage, you too were an F/O?
This is from thread starter RSA's first post.
'There are a number of South African employed airline pilots doing freelance charter in their off time'
I remark again that RSA has cunningly never made a second post.
I think his point here is that South African pilots who work for airlines, and perhaps in particular and by extension South African Airways, should simply not make themselves available for charter work.
While agreeing with the sentiments, such wishful thinking has, in practical terms, to remain just that. One previous correspondent demonstrated his attitude of consideration to those less fortunate than himself by inquiring if there were a lower mortal on the food chain available to do the job before accepting a charter. It goes back to the adage of always remembering that at some stage, you too were an F/O?
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It goes back to the adage of always remembering that at some stage, you too were an F/O?
Está servira para distraerle.
How you got there should not affect how you behave when you get there unless perhaps you should not have got there in the first place.
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c-cheetah, that is not my point. This thread makes it almost sound, as if the majority of interesting and financially juicy ga charters are being taken up by 'airline-pilots'.
First of all, I don't see much of a difference between pilots flying for an airline and those flying in a charter environment. Both types are supposedly professional and well trained pilots.
Secondly, I think the market is a very competitive one and it is very easy to moan about certain pilots, taking work away from others. I believe, it is up to every pilot himself, to get in the good books of the charter queens. I have been freelancing for a long time. If I felt, others are getting more flights, than I, a bunch of flowers, box of chocolates or goodies like that had me back on top of the list rather quickly.
In a competitive market like this, it is not only about having the necessary qualifications. There are a few hundred others with at least the same qualifications. It is about networking, advertising yourself.
The slightest glitch can have you tumble down the priority list, whether it is being late, snotty with a pax or simply not being available enough.
I would think, that the majority of pilots should work on themself, before they claim others are 'taking work away'. Aviation is not a big charity, at least not in times like these. Why hasn't John Travolta asked any of us to fly with him yet?
Cheetah, do you feel and do most of the other more experienced pilots feel, they have been lifted into the seat, they are occupying now, by the kindness of their fellow pilots, or do you guys feel, you have been working for it?
First of all, I don't see much of a difference between pilots flying for an airline and those flying in a charter environment. Both types are supposedly professional and well trained pilots.
Secondly, I think the market is a very competitive one and it is very easy to moan about certain pilots, taking work away from others. I believe, it is up to every pilot himself, to get in the good books of the charter queens. I have been freelancing for a long time. If I felt, others are getting more flights, than I, a bunch of flowers, box of chocolates or goodies like that had me back on top of the list rather quickly.
In a competitive market like this, it is not only about having the necessary qualifications. There are a few hundred others with at least the same qualifications. It is about networking, advertising yourself.
The slightest glitch can have you tumble down the priority list, whether it is being late, snotty with a pax or simply not being available enough.
I would think, that the majority of pilots should work on themself, before they claim others are 'taking work away'. Aviation is not a big charity, at least not in times like these. Why hasn't John Travolta asked any of us to fly with him yet?
Cheetah, do you feel and do most of the other more experienced pilots feel, they have been lifted into the seat, they are occupying now, by the kindness of their fellow pilots, or do you guys feel, you have been working for it?
Está servira para distraerle.
DaFly
I have to say that I found it extremely tough going on the path up to where I am now. It is not easy to have had a father who worked as a simulator technician for one of the larger international US based training companies. Life was full of interesting birthday presents in those days usually equated with the size of the birthday boy. Age five could find one flying a Lear jet, age ten a B737, twelve a B 727, fourteen a B 707, 744 and so on up the aircraft size scale, commensurate with one's own height progression. Suffice to say that by the time the twentieth birthday rolled around one had accumulated a rather significant amount of jet simulator time. The exams were not difficult. Most of the stuff was pretty basic for someone who had grown up with it all. The piston flying training for the test and the check itself were incredibly boring. Everything seemed in slow motion. It was in fact only when I got my first job, with 200 hours in the logbook but many more in the back pages, that I realised that I owed nothing to pilots. My father had finessed the job for me through one of his contacts on the board of the airline he rather liked the look of. This chap was in the habit of bringing his girl friends into the simulators and impressing them with his cockpit drills and flying abilities during the dog watch hours or when the machine was officially on maintenance. So that is how I got where I am today. Lots of hard work, graft, a little luck, some favors to call in and a box of chocolates here and there to the right girl to start the right tape recorder at just the precise moment of CEO simulator evacuation.
I hope that satisfactorily answers your question and may I wish you a very pleasant day on the way down the gantry.
I have to say that I found it extremely tough going on the path up to where I am now. It is not easy to have had a father who worked as a simulator technician for one of the larger international US based training companies. Life was full of interesting birthday presents in those days usually equated with the size of the birthday boy. Age five could find one flying a Lear jet, age ten a B737, twelve a B 727, fourteen a B 707, 744 and so on up the aircraft size scale, commensurate with one's own height progression. Suffice to say that by the time the twentieth birthday rolled around one had accumulated a rather significant amount of jet simulator time. The exams were not difficult. Most of the stuff was pretty basic for someone who had grown up with it all. The piston flying training for the test and the check itself were incredibly boring. Everything seemed in slow motion. It was in fact only when I got my first job, with 200 hours in the logbook but many more in the back pages, that I realised that I owed nothing to pilots. My father had finessed the job for me through one of his contacts on the board of the airline he rather liked the look of. This chap was in the habit of bringing his girl friends into the simulators and impressing them with his cockpit drills and flying abilities during the dog watch hours or when the machine was officially on maintenance. So that is how I got where I am today. Lots of hard work, graft, a little luck, some favors to call in and a box of chocolates here and there to the right girl to start the right tape recorder at just the precise moment of CEO simulator evacuation.
I hope that satisfactorily answers your question and may I wish you a very pleasant day on the way down the gantry.
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MOONLIGHTING (ALPA-SA President's Report July 2010)
The following from SELCAL (Newsletter of the Air Line Pilot's Association of South Africa)
Time and again pilots have been called upon to stand together for the collective benefit of the group. This usually requires of us to be unselfish.We are now faced with a situation that again calls for such unselfish behaviour.
ALPA-SA is aware of the plight of many pilots who are desperate for work. At the same time there are pilots earning good salaries from permanent employment, who are flying in their spare time. This is not in the interest of our profession, nor is it fair!
While we understand that some of our members need to give instruction in order to retain their ratings- or because they are the only people qualified on a particular type, we request that you restrict this to a minimum.
Please remember that by doing charter and corporate flying while in the employ of an airline, you are keeping another person out of a job!
ALPA-SA appeals to each pilot out there to examine his or her conscience and to abstain from this practice. We have the support of the Branch Committees on this issue and we want our members to know the we are here to serve the interests of ALL our members, without favouring any one specific group.
We call on all members now to rise above self-interest and to do what is right!
ALPA-SA is aware of the plight of many pilots who are desperate for work. At the same time there are pilots earning good salaries from permanent employment, who are flying in their spare time. This is not in the interest of our profession, nor is it fair!
While we understand that some of our members need to give instruction in order to retain their ratings- or because they are the only people qualified on a particular type, we request that you restrict this to a minimum.
Please remember that by doing charter and corporate flying while in the employ of an airline, you are keeping another person out of a job!
ALPA-SA appeals to each pilot out there to examine his or her conscience and to abstain from this practice. We have the support of the Branch Committees on this issue and we want our members to know the we are here to serve the interests of ALL our members, without favouring any one specific group.
We call on all members now to rise above self-interest and to do what is right!
Last edited by RSA; 18th Jul 2010 at 18:09.
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Sorry chaps. I don't have time to draft a respectable response. I'm too busy flying charter on my days off. I have to be back at work on Monday and I've got three freelance trips booked before then. 
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MY Dearest RSA and "Sir O"
I am no Rich-man's child, nor am I unprofessional! I got my ATP through hard work and payed for every hour of my flight training on my own. I sat in African $%#*holes for months at a time while my wife and kids had to manage on their own and yes, today I am flying for SAA.
If anybody approach me for a charterflight I will do the flight provided that I am legal in terms of FDP. I have got further "bad" news for you. When I retire one day from SAA, I will most certainly continue flying.
Dont blame other people for your inability or lack of interest in joining a local airline.
To all the young guys out there: Work hard an you will be rewarded. Dont blame or threat others that have walked the walk.
Till next time! Be Safe!
I am no Rich-man's child, nor am I unprofessional! I got my ATP through hard work and payed for every hour of my flight training on my own. I sat in African $%#*holes for months at a time while my wife and kids had to manage on their own and yes, today I am flying for SAA.
If anybody approach me for a charterflight I will do the flight provided that I am legal in terms of FDP. I have got further "bad" news for you. When I retire one day from SAA, I will most certainly continue flying.
Dont blame other people for your inability or lack of interest in joining a local airline.
To all the young guys out there: Work hard an you will be rewarded. Dont blame or threat others that have walked the walk.
Till next time! Be Safe!
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I am always amazed at the unadulterated arrogance of pilots. What in heaven's name gives you the right to tell any other pilot what to do with his free time?
Surely it is the prerogative of the owner/operator to use who he wants to fly his aircraft. Most airlines let their pilots fly outside as long as certain rules are followed. Even Q4NVS's employer does that, although they don't really have a lot of FDP to play with.
If you are good at what you do, satisfy the insurance requirements and make the operator happy, you will get the job. If an airline pilot regularly gets jobs that you thought you should get, you might have to start with a little introspection. I bet that an SAA "moonlighter" does not get charter jobs because he is prepared to bend the rules, so it must be something else.
For the record, I don't like flying enough to do any more than my airline pays me for. The last time I flew anything else was when the Harvard Club still did sky-typing in CPT.
Surely it is the prerogative of the owner/operator to use who he wants to fly his aircraft. Most airlines let their pilots fly outside as long as certain rules are followed. Even Q4NVS's employer does that, although they don't really have a lot of FDP to play with.
If you are good at what you do, satisfy the insurance requirements and make the operator happy, you will get the job. If an airline pilot regularly gets jobs that you thought you should get, you might have to start with a little introspection. I bet that an SAA "moonlighter" does not get charter jobs because he is prepared to bend the rules, so it must be something else.
For the record, I don't like flying enough to do any more than my airline pays me for. The last time I flew anything else was when the Harvard Club still did sky-typing in CPT.
Está servira para distraerle.
This whole argument is hardly a new one and just as there is really not a problem so there is no solution.
But an idea loometh. It seems that there are a lot of airline pilots in SA flying charters and a lot of non airline pilots who think that they should be doing so. So why don't the airline pilots, through ALPA, get together and start an 'Adopt an Amateur Aviator'? Excuse the use of the word 'amateur' but AAA fits so well together doesn't it?
The idea would be that each experienced airline pilot would take one guy from the general pool under his wing and market himself as a two crew operation. The Queens would soon have to get used to this, the passengers would be happier at having two men up front and the work load on the experienced pilot would be reduced because at the least the other pilot could operate the radios.
The logging of flight time by the secondary pilot would be a question of licensing of course but such time would probably in any event count towards some rating or another.
In addition to this, for his services as introducer and line trainer the airline pilot could charge the other a finder's fee for the day's flying. Everyone gains either experience or money and log books are fattened.
But an idea loometh. It seems that there are a lot of airline pilots in SA flying charters and a lot of non airline pilots who think that they should be doing so. So why don't the airline pilots, through ALPA, get together and start an 'Adopt an Amateur Aviator'? Excuse the use of the word 'amateur' but AAA fits so well together doesn't it?
The idea would be that each experienced airline pilot would take one guy from the general pool under his wing and market himself as a two crew operation. The Queens would soon have to get used to this, the passengers would be happier at having two men up front and the work load on the experienced pilot would be reduced because at the least the other pilot could operate the radios.
The logging of flight time by the secondary pilot would be a question of licensing of course but such time would probably in any event count towards some rating or another.
In addition to this, for his services as introducer and line trainer the airline pilot could charge the other a finder's fee for the day's flying. Everyone gains either experience or money and log books are fattened.
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I have not read all the posts on this subject but this is my 2 cents worth. Most pilots love to fly and all pilots love money so it stands to reason that more flying and money will be a motivating factor. I don't blame the Airline guys at all. There may be a moral aspect but we all live in the real world!!
The problem is the operators of the aircraft who use the airline pilots , they get free sim training and currency checks, experience etc (courtesy of SAA/Comair et al) They are the guys inhibiting the recruitment of full time or professional freelancers.
The problem is the operators of the aircraft who use the airline pilots , they get free sim training and currency checks, experience etc (courtesy of SAA/Comair et al) They are the guys inhibiting the recruitment of full time or professional freelancers.
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PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS, I AM NOT SHOUTING, BUT MERELY USING THEM IN TERMS OF EXTREME RESPECT AND HUMILITY TOWARD MY AIRLINE BRETHREN.
(YEARS AGO MY PTI USED TO SAY HE HOPED I WAS SPEAKING TO HIM IN CAPITAL LETTERS BECAUSE COMPARED TO ME HE WAS VERY IMPORTANT...SO>>.)
WHILE SOME ARE AMAZED BY OTHERS TRYING HARD TO PROTECT THE SCRAPS OF FREELANCE CHARTER THAT ARE LEFT, I AM AMAZED BY THE ASSUMPTION PROFFERED BY THE SKY-GODS ON HERE THAT EVERYONE ACTUALLY WANTS TO BE IN THE AIRLINES, AND IF YOU ARE NOT, THEN SOMEHOW YOU HAVE NOT YET MATURED AS A PILOT. BAH HUMBUG.
I KNOW OF MANY PILOTS THAT HAVE NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER IN JOINING THE AIRLINES AND WOULD MUCH RATHER FLY TO A VARIETY OF DESTINATIONS, IN DIFFERENT TYPES, AND MAKE THEIR LIVING AS FREELANCE PILOTS. THE MERE FACT THAT SO MANY AIRLINE PILOTS ARE FLYING CHARTER IS A INDICTMENT OF JUST HOW SATISFYING AIRLINE FLYING REALLY IS....
I AM THE LAST ONE TO EXPECT LIFE TO BE FAIR AND TO EXPECT A LIVE AND LET LIVE ATTITUDE TO PREVAIL IN SOUTH AFRICAN AVIATION, SO YES, I DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING WILL CHANGE, PURELY BECAUSE OF THE UNSATISFYING NATURE OF AIRLINE FLYING - A NUMBER OF AIRLINE PILOTS WILL ALWAYS WANT TO FLY CHARTER ON THE SIDE TO STOP THEM FROM DYING OF BOREDOM -
BUT TO GET YOUR NOSE TWISTED OUT OF SHAPE AND YOUR KNICKERS IN A KNOT BECAUSE FREELANCE PILOTS WHO ARE BATTLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS THE SITUATION, IS THE EPITOME OF ARROGANCE.
BUT THEN AGAIN, IS THAT ANYTHING NEW??
PS: thanks for taking time out of your busy schedules to teach us. Without you we would all be...um...richer I guess
(YEARS AGO MY PTI USED TO SAY HE HOPED I WAS SPEAKING TO HIM IN CAPITAL LETTERS BECAUSE COMPARED TO ME HE WAS VERY IMPORTANT...SO>>.)
WHILE SOME ARE AMAZED BY OTHERS TRYING HARD TO PROTECT THE SCRAPS OF FREELANCE CHARTER THAT ARE LEFT, I AM AMAZED BY THE ASSUMPTION PROFFERED BY THE SKY-GODS ON HERE THAT EVERYONE ACTUALLY WANTS TO BE IN THE AIRLINES, AND IF YOU ARE NOT, THEN SOMEHOW YOU HAVE NOT YET MATURED AS A PILOT. BAH HUMBUG.
I KNOW OF MANY PILOTS THAT HAVE NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER IN JOINING THE AIRLINES AND WOULD MUCH RATHER FLY TO A VARIETY OF DESTINATIONS, IN DIFFERENT TYPES, AND MAKE THEIR LIVING AS FREELANCE PILOTS. THE MERE FACT THAT SO MANY AIRLINE PILOTS ARE FLYING CHARTER IS A INDICTMENT OF JUST HOW SATISFYING AIRLINE FLYING REALLY IS....
I AM THE LAST ONE TO EXPECT LIFE TO BE FAIR AND TO EXPECT A LIVE AND LET LIVE ATTITUDE TO PREVAIL IN SOUTH AFRICAN AVIATION, SO YES, I DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING WILL CHANGE, PURELY BECAUSE OF THE UNSATISFYING NATURE OF AIRLINE FLYING - A NUMBER OF AIRLINE PILOTS WILL ALWAYS WANT TO FLY CHARTER ON THE SIDE TO STOP THEM FROM DYING OF BOREDOM -
BUT TO GET YOUR NOSE TWISTED OUT OF SHAPE AND YOUR KNICKERS IN A KNOT BECAUSE FREELANCE PILOTS WHO ARE BATTLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS THE SITUATION, IS THE EPITOME OF ARROGANCE.
BUT THEN AGAIN, IS THAT ANYTHING NEW??
PS: thanks for taking time out of your busy schedules to teach us. Without you we would all be...um...richer I guess
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BUT TO GET YOUR NOSE TWISTED OUT OF SHAPE AND YOUR KNICKERS IN A KNOT BECAUSE FREELANCE PILOTS WHO ARE BATTLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS THE SITUATION, IS THE EPITOME OF ARROGANCE.