Seniority Lists - Yes/No??
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Seniority Lists - Yes/No??
I'd like to get your thoughts on company seniority lists. Do you think this is a successful procedure to impliment or would it be better not to have one?
Your constructive input and opinions will be apprecaited...
thanks!
Your constructive input and opinions will be apprecaited...
thanks!
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SHORT REPLY: It"s the only way to go !! I think you only realise the importance of a seniority list once you are on the list,climbing the ladder and working your way to the front.
Just is just my very humble opition on it !! Safe flying............now I will logoff PPRUNE for another 4 months + !!!
Just is just my very humble opition on it !! Safe flying............now I will logoff PPRUNE for another 4 months + !!!
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Then what you must do is to consult the ex BA, (a seniority airline), Captains at Easy Jet which is a meritocracy.
It is not such an outdated stupid idea. Fred Goodwin could use some basic banking training? Not so?
It is not such an outdated stupid idea. Fred Goodwin could use some basic banking training? Not so?
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The problem with flying is with what yard stick do you measure our performance for a promotion?
How seldom you divert or how often you accept late pax? (factors we have no control over). How many hours we fly per month? (factors we have no control over) Perhaps how much fuel we use? (compared with what)
The only acceptable measurement we really have is seniority and meeting the minimum requirements. After that the commandability test.
Just think how upset you'll be if you have been with your company for a while and now they employ someone from the outside with 1 hour more in their logbook and then give them command, because they have more experience than you.
Unfortunatly in aviation we use very different measurements than in any other occupation.
suitcaseman, if you want to be measured like a bank manager, you should have chosen a different job.
I agree fully, it is blind if you have 10k+hours and join a different company as co-pilot. You will prob. then have captains with less hours than you. That is why an airline needs longevity salary increases.
The only people that tend not to like seniority lists are:
a. management that want to promote their buddies (or not promote a non-buddy)
b. job hoppers
How seldom you divert or how often you accept late pax? (factors we have no control over). How many hours we fly per month? (factors we have no control over) Perhaps how much fuel we use? (compared with what)
The only acceptable measurement we really have is seniority and meeting the minimum requirements. After that the commandability test.
Just think how upset you'll be if you have been with your company for a while and now they employ someone from the outside with 1 hour more in their logbook and then give them command, because they have more experience than you.
Unfortunatly in aviation we use very different measurements than in any other occupation.
suitcaseman, if you want to be measured like a bank manager, you should have chosen a different job.
I agree fully, it is blind if you have 10k+hours and join a different company as co-pilot. You will prob. then have captains with less hours than you. That is why an airline needs longevity salary increases.
The only people that tend not to like seniority lists are:
a. management that want to promote their buddies (or not promote a non-buddy)
b. job hoppers
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Quote: "The problem with flying is with what yard stick do you measure our performance...."
Did you buy your licences and ratings from some corrupt jurisdiction? Most civil aviation agencies and companies manage to measure pilots' capabilities and performance, either in an aircraft or a sim. It's a normal procedure! Just as elsewhere competent and ethical employers are also able to identify other skills: who does the job safely, legally, efficiently, respectful towards colleagues, reports for work on time, does the considerable paperwork correctly and neatly, dresses neatly in correct company uniform, pitches in to help others where needed (eg help load bags) etc.
True seniority comes from merit, not antiquity! As stated above, this is an outmoded concept that seems to be unique to aviation. It was put in place by unscrupulous employers (and is accepted by dumb employees) as it offers a major benefit to employers. It obstructs what should be one of our basic rights - mobility of labour. In the free world if you are not happy with things at your present employer then you look around and move at the same level or better to another employer, for better pay or conditions. Your old employer loses staff and has to adjust to the market to retain employees. Seniority removes this and enables the employer to offer the very minimum in cash and respect that it can get away with.
Did you buy your licences and ratings from some corrupt jurisdiction? Most civil aviation agencies and companies manage to measure pilots' capabilities and performance, either in an aircraft or a sim. It's a normal procedure! Just as elsewhere competent and ethical employers are also able to identify other skills: who does the job safely, legally, efficiently, respectful towards colleagues, reports for work on time, does the considerable paperwork correctly and neatly, dresses neatly in correct company uniform, pitches in to help others where needed (eg help load bags) etc.
True seniority comes from merit, not antiquity! As stated above, this is an outmoded concept that seems to be unique to aviation. It was put in place by unscrupulous employers (and is accepted by dumb employees) as it offers a major benefit to employers. It obstructs what should be one of our basic rights - mobility of labour. In the free world if you are not happy with things at your present employer then you look around and move at the same level or better to another employer, for better pay or conditions. Your old employer loses staff and has to adjust to the market to retain employees. Seniority removes this and enables the employer to offer the very minimum in cash and respect that it can get away with.
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Suggestion/Though:
Lets say each position (pilot's seat) is advertised as a seperate job (no list). Would this not be more fair because the employer (as with any position) would look for the best candidate - hours/experience/etc. and not necessarily just the "next in line" - who might not meet up to the requirements aor could possible not hande for example a Captain's seat?
I've heard of some guys just "waiting" their turn - for when their ship comes in - and therefore make no effort to better themselves or move from a comfort zone because "it's coming my way anyway". In my opinion this could up the standard of pilots/flying - not that I'm doubting anyone - but there's always room to do better..
Shouldn't it be as with any job offer - may the best man get it?
Lets say each position (pilot's seat) is advertised as a seperate job (no list). Would this not be more fair because the employer (as with any position) would look for the best candidate - hours/experience/etc. and not necessarily just the "next in line" - who might not meet up to the requirements aor could possible not hande for example a Captain's seat?
I've heard of some guys just "waiting" their turn - for when their ship comes in - and therefore make no effort to better themselves or move from a comfort zone because "it's coming my way anyway". In my opinion this could up the standard of pilots/flying - not that I'm doubting anyone - but there's always room to do better..
Shouldn't it be as with any job offer - may the best man get it?
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We have thrashed this topic to death. Its real easy.
The guys at the bottom of the seniority list think its a bad idea and the guys at the top think its great.
Having seen the mess RF made at Link when he tried to bypass the seniority list with the ERJ and all the nashing of teeth and tearing of cloth that it caused. What was really funny to watch was the guys that joined were so VERY anti till THEIR commands came up and how it was SO unfair if THEY got bypassed.
The guys at the bottom of the seniority list think its a bad idea and the guys at the top think its great.
Having seen the mess RF made at Link when he tried to bypass the seniority list with the ERJ and all the nashing of teeth and tearing of cloth that it caused. What was really funny to watch was the guys that joined were so VERY anti till THEIR commands came up and how it was SO unfair if THEY got bypassed.
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Well it seems like a 50/50 thing. I can understand that guys at the bottom think negatively about it.
My opinion: There should not be such a list - only creates confusion and unhappiness when the company expands (link Airlink) and the list does not really make sense with the different AC types, etc.
Thanks for the input guys!
My opinion: There should not be such a list - only creates confusion and unhappiness when the company expands (link Airlink) and the list does not really make sense with the different AC types, etc.
Thanks for the input guys!
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PLEASE - don't make this an Airlink issue AGAIN! (just stopping it before it starts - there are threads about airlink)
Are there airlines with different ac types running a seniority list that works - without complaints?
Are there airlines with different ac types running a seniority list that works - without complaints?
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My opinion: There should not be such a list - only creates confusion and unhappiness when the company expands (link Airlink) and the list does not really make sense with the different AC types, etc.
Are there airlines with different ac types running a seniority list that works - without complaints?
......but still take direct entry commands successfully.
Not sure what the gripe with seniority is, as its a system that rewards loyalty to the company.
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gee wizz Suitcaseman! Getting a bit touchy there? Since I started the thread to get more info on this, I thought it best to keep to the topic - notice the REQUEST...
Whenever someone starts something like this it always seems to move towards all the Airlink politics.
I have not seen the other threads on this subject and will certainly look them up and read the other comments there too (now that I know about them) - so my appologies for boring you with this again!
I am interested in YOUR views on the subject since I don't fly for a commercial airline - hence the initial request for constructive and positive input - and therefore, what is so obvious to you might not be to me...
chill out bro!
Avi8tor: Thanks for your comments and input. It seems my understanding of a seniority list was not entirely correct - you gave me a different perspective...
Whenever someone starts something like this it always seems to move towards all the Airlink politics.
I have not seen the other threads on this subject and will certainly look them up and read the other comments there too (now that I know about them) - so my appologies for boring you with this again! I am interested in YOUR views on the subject since I don't fly for a commercial airline - hence the initial request for constructive and positive input - and therefore, what is so obvious to you might not be to me...
chill out bro!
Avi8tor: Thanks for your comments and input. It seems my understanding of a seniority list was not entirely correct - you gave me a different perspective...
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How would you put a seniority list on Naturelink or ET or Qwila, where so many things OTHER than seniority factor in advancement: old boys network, willingness to put up a bond to advance in aircraft, or better locations on smaller aircraft such as Stickerlink and the E120s in Sao Tome.
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always seems to move towards all the Airlink politics.
Then management turned to the 'dark side'. And now Link is a study in how NOT to do it.
where so many things OTHER than seniority factor in advancement
The system works for a reason. We are all equally qualified and one assumes all equally able to do the job. Seniority allows the guys and girls to plan their career progress in an airline. Seniority takes the brown nosing/old boys network out of play.
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Command
I smell skulduggery here, and management. (Trying to assuage their conscience for wrong doing?)
Surely, when you select a pilot, in an AIRLINE, you select a potential Commander? Then when you need the position filled the next man IN LINE is evaluated! If he does not meet prescribed (as in published!) criteria, the position is then offered to the next man. (Kitchen....
) JOKE!!
If he/she is washed off command course, it is done by an external examiner. (External, i.e. Air France/Lufthansa DE from far away....)
However, Earnest K Gann's system is definitely faulty if you need your "Buddy" to be expedited into the LHS.......
We've just had/(having), a huge problem with the world's economy due to "modern methods" of doing business......... One "modern" maxim in the workplace is: If you're longer than two years in one employer, you're going backward. ~ I seem to feel that Pa and Grandpa etc lead a far richer life than what we try and force upon ourselves today.
Yes, if you have golden hand-cuffs today, it is a problem-----for YOU only! Tough! Look around at the blokes who take the leap (go to the bottom of the dreaded ladder) and see how well they actually are after another say, 5 years???
Within one 'institution' you have 2 distinctly different systems. Both examples mentioned place being Spoories and Mango. Now at the former you do your time. Dad did..... your friend from 1 Squadron did (Just winding you up!) but he joined a day earlier than you, now 3 years later he has been a captain for 3 years already and no slot for you. Up to the moment he got command you were happy with the system. NOW suddenly you find argument?
I recently asked a training captain at Mango "How does your system work?" He explained. I then said "So, if you bump heads with a significant single person en route, you ain't gonna see command?" Shoulders were shrugged. Period!
Surely, when you select a pilot, in an AIRLINE, you select a potential Commander? Then when you need the position filled the next man IN LINE is evaluated! If he does not meet prescribed (as in published!) criteria, the position is then offered to the next man. (Kitchen....
) JOKE!!If he/she is washed off command course, it is done by an external examiner. (External, i.e. Air France/Lufthansa DE from far away....)
However, Earnest K Gann's system is definitely faulty if you need your "Buddy" to be expedited into the LHS.......
We've just had/(having), a huge problem with the world's economy due to "modern methods" of doing business......... One "modern" maxim in the workplace is: If you're longer than two years in one employer, you're going backward. ~ I seem to feel that Pa and Grandpa etc lead a far richer life than what we try and force upon ourselves today.
Yes, if you have golden hand-cuffs today, it is a problem-----for YOU only! Tough! Look around at the blokes who take the leap (go to the bottom of the dreaded ladder) and see how well they actually are after another say, 5 years???
Within one 'institution' you have 2 distinctly different systems. Both examples mentioned place being Spoories and Mango. Now at the former you do your time. Dad did..... your friend from 1 Squadron did (Just winding you up!) but he joined a day earlier than you, now 3 years later he has been a captain for 3 years already and no slot for you. Up to the moment he got command you were happy with the system. NOW suddenly you find argument?
I recently asked a training captain at Mango "How does your system work?" He explained. I then said "So, if you bump heads with a significant single person en route, you ain't gonna see command?" Shoulders were shrugged. Period!
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now we're getting somewhere...A point system sounds like a good idea - the only down side I see is if management or someone doesn't like you they might not allocate you the deserving points you might earn on experience etc.
Again- I agree with "the best man for the job" - when a position is available, advertise and do the interviews of applicants. As with any position, internally advertised first, then look external. Perhaps a seniority "list" could be kept simply for "seniority in service to the company" etc - not determining your next position, but will be used when allocating leave (if you need to bid for leave over the typical holiday season) or similar situations .. or who gets the front seat in the crew bus.. (JOKE!)
Whatever the use, I think companies could use such a list wisely and benefit both sides - but I wouldn't use it to just shift someone into the LHS when he's number is up...
my 5 cents worth.
Last edited by legacy; 22nd Jan 2009 at 10:29.
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As said before, a search on PPRuNe for seniority will get you a lot of hits. It has been discussed A LOT.
I am going to be lazy and just cut an paste my thoughts from a previous thread about seniority. In this particular case, it was about direct entry command:
and
I am going to be lazy and just cut an paste my thoughts from a previous thread about seniority. In this particular case, it was about direct entry command:
There are merits to both sides in this argument.
My 2 cents. We are in one of the only jobs in the world where experience probably outweighs ability, certainly in the LHS. You can be a very good/safe captain without being the world's best pilot. The inverse is also true.
One thing about a seniority list and the avoidance of DEC, is that the people in the LHS are used to company procedures and routes and are known to the company. There are also years of flying in the RHS where ingrained errors/behaviours/high risk characteristics can be identified and addressed.
Sure, it is not a perfect system, but it is very difficult to measure command ability, even in the sim and that is unfortunately what you need to measure if you move to a merit based system. Flying ability counts for very little in the LHS (obviously there is a basic minimum requirement for stick and rudder skills, but most pilots have that by the time they get command).
Unfortunately hard work does not make you a good captain, and neither is flying hours a true and honest measure of experience. The safe way for an airline or other large operator to avoid expensive mistakes in upgrades, is an apprenticeship phase (as FO). This just happens to correspond to the warm and fuzzy feeling provided by a seniority list for people already in an airline.
So, a good compromise all around.
BTW, there are two kinds of people I have never met:
1. A man who did not think that he was at least an above average car driver.
2. A pilot that did not think he was at least an above average stick and throttle man and would make an excellent captain.
My 2 cents. We are in one of the only jobs in the world where experience probably outweighs ability, certainly in the LHS. You can be a very good/safe captain without being the world's best pilot. The inverse is also true.
One thing about a seniority list and the avoidance of DEC, is that the people in the LHS are used to company procedures and routes and are known to the company. There are also years of flying in the RHS where ingrained errors/behaviours/high risk characteristics can be identified and addressed.
Sure, it is not a perfect system, but it is very difficult to measure command ability, even in the sim and that is unfortunately what you need to measure if you move to a merit based system. Flying ability counts for very little in the LHS (obviously there is a basic minimum requirement for stick and rudder skills, but most pilots have that by the time they get command).
Shouldnt experience and hard work be rewarded?
So, a good compromise all around.
BTW, there are two kinds of people I have never met:
1. A man who did not think that he was at least an above average car driver.
2. A pilot that did not think he was at least an above average stick and throttle man and would make an excellent captain.
Seniority not only protects incumbent pilots. It also protects the company, because pilots have a vested interest in the company. They want to stay in the company to move up the list, so it is in their interest that the company does well financially.