Cowboys in the Sky! (ref:recent accident-series)
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I am so ashamed of myself and now I am very afraid too, PF.
As you use scare-tactics you must be working for SAA!
You have won! I will have to leave the country and... hang on,what am I talking about? I have already left, and unless you spend your free ticket on a trip up north that clap for you will have to wait.
What I am really sorry for is that I had to use S.L.'s name to get you guys thinking. The fact is that he is a good pilot and is sure to draw some attention...q.e.d.
It's only a shame he is working for SAA.
With the knowledge, that the problem is rooted deep in the training, now in the open, I leave it to you boys and gals to do what is necessary to safe the reputation of the SA-licence-standard.
Got to go now and put another lock on my door...
As you use scare-tactics you must be working for SAA!
You have won! I will have to leave the country and... hang on,what am I talking about? I have already left, and unless you spend your free ticket on a trip up north that clap for you will have to wait.
What I am really sorry for is that I had to use S.L.'s name to get you guys thinking. The fact is that he is a good pilot and is sure to draw some attention...q.e.d.
It's only a shame he is working for SAA.
With the knowledge, that the problem is rooted deep in the training, now in the open, I leave it to you boys and gals to do what is necessary to safe the reputation of the SA-licence-standard.
Got to go now and put another lock on my door...
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With the knowledge, that the problem is rooted deep in the training, now in the open, I leave it to you boys and gals to do what is necessary to safe the reputation of the SA-licence-standard.
That may well prove to be more difficult than anyone thinks. Sadly the CAA is now a typical Guvmunt department with the same personnel issues as all the others, all thanks to AA and our old nemess BEE. Consequently, the long time serving white guys have taken packages or retired, leaving a new generation whose sole "passion" is a job in government with all the associated pension, health etc benefits and only a very secondary interest in their jobs. Once most of them got this plum post, I'm sure they were horrified to realise that they actually were expected to put some effort in and that they had to make decisions too
.The recent spate of accidents IMO is confirmation to me that my theory is valid. Our new "system" is supposey based on the JAR in order to facilitate commonality and maybe in the wishful future to allow for inclusion, but had anyone upstairs actually known what they were doing they would have realised that having a bunch of manuals and regulations in place was the easiest part of it all.
The difficult part of it is having the vision to forsee and plan for eventualities and knowing how to implement those changes effectively.
Another stumbling block I feel is the lack of control of the system. In the "old days" I had my then DCA inspector walk into my hangar completely unannounced for a "quick look-around" and that kept me on my toes. Since the revolution the element of surprise is over, the CAA guys insist on the operators buying their tickets (business class), booking hotels (3 star minimum) and per diems, all carefully arranged in advance so the element of surprise is long gone.
Add to this the perception that the CAA has APPARENTLY become available to the highest bidder as far as accountability/enforcement/exam papers is concerned and you have a system teetering on the brink of collapse and subsequent ridicule in the international arena.
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I'm thinking of setting the words "Cowboys in the sky" as lyrics to the track "Riders of the Storm"
Edited for spelling...I'm drunk
Edited for spelling...I'm drunk
Last edited by Gooneybird; 4th Nov 2008 at 07:21. Reason: Spelling
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the CAA guys insist on the operators buying their tickets (business class), booking hotels (3 star minimum) and per diems, all carefully arranged in advance so the element of surprise is long gone.
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Setron
You have gone from saying a certain individual had the deaths at Rand on his conscience to " he is a great pilot and you used his name to get attention. Now that's a backtrack if I ever heard one. Obviously an "error" because english is not your first language.
To get to the topic at hand (some good posts). I am not an instructor, but could the following two points perhaps have bearing on the spate of accidents:
1. We have just come out of a very cold winter into a few vicious heat spells and some pretty strong winds. For the whole winter a mindset could have developed of not bothering about density altitude. Suddenly the massive weather change means ignore density altitude at your peril. This would affect a light a/c up here through all phases of flight, takeoff, landing and upper air work. Once again the traps of routine and complacency pose real threats.
2. Two things in forced landings after t/o were always drummed into me, speed into height and pick a field within 30 to 45 deg ahead of you, no turnbacks (density altitude will also bite here, as well as strong winds). The SAAF always said never pick a field unless you can make keypoint 1 (3000' overhead) ,keypoint 2 (2000' downwind) or keypoint 3 (1000' base leg) and aim for one of those keypoints.
Just a few points, are these aspects still taught or is there a gap in the training? Are the Threat and error aspects of guarding against routine ,complacency and time pressure emphasised in CRM training?
You have gone from saying a certain individual had the deaths at Rand on his conscience to " he is a great pilot and you used his name to get attention. Now that's a backtrack if I ever heard one. Obviously an "error" because english is not your first language.
To get to the topic at hand (some good posts). I am not an instructor, but could the following two points perhaps have bearing on the spate of accidents:
1. We have just come out of a very cold winter into a few vicious heat spells and some pretty strong winds. For the whole winter a mindset could have developed of not bothering about density altitude. Suddenly the massive weather change means ignore density altitude at your peril. This would affect a light a/c up here through all phases of flight, takeoff, landing and upper air work. Once again the traps of routine and complacency pose real threats.
2. Two things in forced landings after t/o were always drummed into me, speed into height and pick a field within 30 to 45 deg ahead of you, no turnbacks (density altitude will also bite here, as well as strong winds). The SAAF always said never pick a field unless you can make keypoint 1 (3000' overhead) ,keypoint 2 (2000' downwind) or keypoint 3 (1000' base leg) and aim for one of those keypoints.
Just a few points, are these aspects still taught or is there a gap in the training? Are the Threat and error aspects of guarding against routine ,complacency and time pressure emphasised in CRM training?
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millertime - not a backtrack, rather a calming down to normal levels.
Like with salary matters you must aim high to get a normal level.
Only a hothead like Pussy&Fanny would have taken the allegations serious.
Isn't it funny, that as long as PFy is not interrupting the thread, the comments are continuously interesting and mostly founded?
People that know Scully (with a "c", am rather surprised PFy picked that up!) know of his value and would have understood!
Language, oh yes, I am juggling 3+1/2 at the moment incl. a very "throaty" one, so thats maybe why. If duds like Doodlebug2 are more into spelling then the meaning, then they must just f-off and go to : www.spellingbee.com/ or www.gamequarium.com/spelling.html
Should be more "up their alley"
unstable load - I recon we all miss the good old day's when things were more "stable"!
When Zimbos start running the show at the SACAA, then one starts wondering what is generally happening in SA...
I think the privatisation of the CAA was a big mistake in regards of safety!
Once something is down the drain, it's rather messy to get it right again!
The CAA quick-bleech of instructors will not help the situation.
I wish Scully would spend more time in that department, cause thats were his experience is needed the most in these darkening times to turn the tide!
(PS: There are still some good people in the CAA, but sadly just a few, a happy few, a band of brothers...)
...and now everybody: da, da, di, da, daaaaah...
Like with salary matters you must aim high to get a normal level.
Only a hothead like Pussy&Fanny would have taken the allegations serious.
Isn't it funny, that as long as PFy is not interrupting the thread, the comments are continuously interesting and mostly founded?
People that know Scully (with a "c"
, am rather surprised PFy picked that up!) know of his value and would have understood!Language, oh yes, I am juggling 3+1/2 at the moment incl. a very "throaty" one, so thats maybe why. If duds like Doodlebug2 are more into spelling then the meaning, then they must just f-off and go to : www.spellingbee.com/ or www.gamequarium.com/spelling.html
Should be more "up their alley"
unstable load - I recon we all miss the good old day's when things were more "stable"!
When Zimbos start running the show at the SACAA, then one starts wondering what is generally happening in SA...
I think the privatisation of the CAA was a big mistake in regards of safety!
Once something is down the drain, it's rather messy to get it right again!
The CAA quick-bleech of instructors will not help the situation.
I wish Scully would spend more time in that department, cause thats were his experience is needed the most in these darkening times to turn the tide!
(PS: There are still some good people in the CAA, but sadly just a few, a happy few, a band of brothers...)
...and now everybody: da, da, di, da, daaaaah...
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Sentron
This is a prof pilots network. You clearly have nothing to contribute here. If you are willing to throw Capt Levin's name around then I suggest you put your own name on the post.
DH
PS. Can you please show on some B747 graphs what was unsafe about flying over a stadium or landing at Rand. Please provide only facts and not your opinion which you have proved to be worthless.
This is a prof pilots network. You clearly have nothing to contribute here. If you are willing to throw Capt Levin's name around then I suggest you put your own name on the post.
DH
PS. Can you please show on some B747 graphs what was unsafe about flying over a stadium or landing at Rand. Please provide only facts and not your opinion which you have proved to be worthless.
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Good old Setron. What a fine, well spoken, keen-minded, upstanding chap you are.
Both "Acts" (Water-Skiing & Stadium... The latter having been commanded by Laurie Kay actually) were fully authorised, seriously rehearsed, expertly conducted, and drew acclaim from around the world.
Now we have somebody, who (appears) to have a serious chip on his shoulder, trying to wage a war about all things SA and SAA. Nothing is out of limits. Names, organisations, and general slander are liberally, and inappropriately employed in this ridiculous vendetta. Thing is... A great deal of what you are writing is factually incorrect, and thus not even applicable to your campaign. A bit like giving yourself an F (for Fail) assessment. How many more times are you going to backtrack in a pathetically unsuccessful attempt to weasel your way out of your slanderous jottings.
Come on chap, get over yourself and stop this rubbish. Your "Save South African Aviation" campaign is a farce, and a front for your very obvious bitterness. You left SA for what you must have believed was a good reason. Good on you. Now live with your decision, and stop trying stir from behind your computer screen.
Both "Acts" (Water-Skiing & Stadium... The latter having been commanded by Laurie Kay actually) were fully authorised, seriously rehearsed, expertly conducted, and drew acclaim from around the world.
Now we have somebody, who (appears) to have a serious chip on his shoulder, trying to wage a war about all things SA and SAA. Nothing is out of limits. Names, organisations, and general slander are liberally, and inappropriately employed in this ridiculous vendetta. Thing is... A great deal of what you are writing is factually incorrect, and thus not even applicable to your campaign. A bit like giving yourself an F (for Fail) assessment. How many more times are you going to backtrack in a pathetically unsuccessful attempt to weasel your way out of your slanderous jottings.
Come on chap, get over yourself and stop this rubbish. Your "Save South African Aviation" campaign is a farce, and a front for your very obvious bitterness. You left SA for what you must have believed was a good reason. Good on you. Now live with your decision, and stop trying stir from behind your computer screen.
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Here is Dennis own commentary from Pprune, March 7th, 2004. Prtined from a post by Gunship.....
The aircraft empty weight was 164 000kg and we had 20 000kg fuel on board. The aircraft was TOTALLY airworthy and every component was serviceable, it even has toilet paper in all the toilets!!!!!
We had a snag before start with the PMS (Performance Management Computer) so one was ordered from stores and it was fitted before we departed.
Take-off weight was 183 000 kg and the V1/VR speed was 125 kts. Max thrust was 1.6 EPR but we de-rated to 1.55.
We applied nearly max thrust on the brakes and it had acceleration that made the M3 drivers look like they were standing still.
We rotated just after intersection Lima, some 3000 ft from the beginning of 03 Left, and climbed away with a body angle of nearly 30°.
We were given vectors for Rand from the west, but because of some cloud we only became visual too late to commence the approach, so we were re-vectored and approached from the south.
We joined right-hand downwind for 11 and got the gear and flap 30, landing flap out early. As there is no approach aids on 11, we plotted an ideal path using the DME at RAV. The threshold height of 11 is 5500 ft AMSL at 0,7 DME RAV, so by the simple rule of 300 ft per nautical mile, we had our path plotted.
3,7 DME : 6400 ft
2.7 DME: 6100 ft
1.7 DME: 5800 ft
We did not want to touch early, because of the "lip" on the approach to 11, so we had a chalk line at 50m (150 ft) drawn across the runway to ensure that this would not happen, because of the visual illusion of such a narrow runway ( 15m wide compared to 60m wide at JNB).
The distance from the nose of the aircraft to the rear of the gear is 114 ft, so we would not want to touch down before the nose was at this line.
Also, the demonstrated landing distance from the flight performance manuals, and computed by the performance engineers at SAA is 3000 ft.
This is using ONLY brakes and NO thrust reverse, but we must remember that this is for a new aircraft with new brakes, not one with 107 000 flying hours on it !!!!
To ensure that we minimized the possibility of an over-run of 11, we then put another chalk line at 3600 ft from the end of R/W 29, so if we were not on the ground by this mark, we would go-around and have another attempt. In the Simulator we tried various scenario's using JNB 30L , NO aids, except for the 300 ft/NM [plot, a 5 kt crosswind and a 5 kt tail wind, NO reverse thrust, and every time we managed to stop before intersection Lima.
Well it worked at Rand, and we did NOT scratch the paint !!!
I managed to keep it on the centre line and touch down at the point we wanted - Bug speed at the weight of 178 000kg was 118 kts, but on short final with the wind at 070/08 I elected to fly it at 115 kts.
When Dennis Mc Dermot, our Flight Engineer called 20 ft on the radio altimeter, I closed the thrust levers and planted it firmly onto the runway, aircraft carrier style.
Well most of our energy dissipated rapidly, and by using medium auto-brakes, until I lowered the nose wheel, we managed to stop just before the intersection of 11/35.
Stew just "cracked" the reversers, in case we need them, but because the engines will be removed and used again, we did not want to ingest any debris, as ALL the engines were overhanging the runway. The brake temperatures did not move higher than the mid green range.
Regards,
Dennis
Please leave flying aircraft of which some here seem to know nothing to those that do! Also same for Scully - professional pilots are not responsible for sickening attitudes which must be prevailing in SA general aviation to cause so many accidents. I hope foreign pilots looking to train in SA are reading this thread and determining for themselves by rapid deduction the fact that something may be rotten in the state of some SA flight schools. Maybe it is that fewer cash pupils will lead to greater self regulation in matters of safety,
How can a pilot land on the wrong runway and then try to take off again?
He would stop quicker on the runway than running along up to the take off speed? If that is what really happened-has a licence been pulled-subject to enquiry? Bloody amateures pretending to be pilots!
The aircraft empty weight was 164 000kg and we had 20 000kg fuel on board. The aircraft was TOTALLY airworthy and every component was serviceable, it even has toilet paper in all the toilets!!!!!
We had a snag before start with the PMS (Performance Management Computer) so one was ordered from stores and it was fitted before we departed.
Take-off weight was 183 000 kg and the V1/VR speed was 125 kts. Max thrust was 1.6 EPR but we de-rated to 1.55.
We applied nearly max thrust on the brakes and it had acceleration that made the M3 drivers look like they were standing still.
We rotated just after intersection Lima, some 3000 ft from the beginning of 03 Left, and climbed away with a body angle of nearly 30°.
We were given vectors for Rand from the west, but because of some cloud we only became visual too late to commence the approach, so we were re-vectored and approached from the south.
We joined right-hand downwind for 11 and got the gear and flap 30, landing flap out early. As there is no approach aids on 11, we plotted an ideal path using the DME at RAV. The threshold height of 11 is 5500 ft AMSL at 0,7 DME RAV, so by the simple rule of 300 ft per nautical mile, we had our path plotted.
3,7 DME : 6400 ft
2.7 DME: 6100 ft
1.7 DME: 5800 ft
We did not want to touch early, because of the "lip" on the approach to 11, so we had a chalk line at 50m (150 ft) drawn across the runway to ensure that this would not happen, because of the visual illusion of such a narrow runway ( 15m wide compared to 60m wide at JNB).
The distance from the nose of the aircraft to the rear of the gear is 114 ft, so we would not want to touch down before the nose was at this line.
Also, the demonstrated landing distance from the flight performance manuals, and computed by the performance engineers at SAA is 3000 ft.
This is using ONLY brakes and NO thrust reverse, but we must remember that this is for a new aircraft with new brakes, not one with 107 000 flying hours on it !!!!
To ensure that we minimized the possibility of an over-run of 11, we then put another chalk line at 3600 ft from the end of R/W 29, so if we were not on the ground by this mark, we would go-around and have another attempt. In the Simulator we tried various scenario's using JNB 30L , NO aids, except for the 300 ft/NM [plot, a 5 kt crosswind and a 5 kt tail wind, NO reverse thrust, and every time we managed to stop before intersection Lima.
Well it worked at Rand, and we did NOT scratch the paint !!!
I managed to keep it on the centre line and touch down at the point we wanted - Bug speed at the weight of 178 000kg was 118 kts, but on short final with the wind at 070/08 I elected to fly it at 115 kts.
When Dennis Mc Dermot, our Flight Engineer called 20 ft on the radio altimeter, I closed the thrust levers and planted it firmly onto the runway, aircraft carrier style.
Well most of our energy dissipated rapidly, and by using medium auto-brakes, until I lowered the nose wheel, we managed to stop just before the intersection of 11/35.
Stew just "cracked" the reversers, in case we need them, but because the engines will be removed and used again, we did not want to ingest any debris, as ALL the engines were overhanging the runway. The brake temperatures did not move higher than the mid green range.
Regards,
Dennis
Please leave flying aircraft of which some here seem to know nothing to those that do! Also same for Scully - professional pilots are not responsible for sickening attitudes which must be prevailing in SA general aviation to cause so many accidents. I hope foreign pilots looking to train in SA are reading this thread and determining for themselves by rapid deduction the fact that something may be rotten in the state of some SA flight schools. Maybe it is that fewer cash pupils will lead to greater self regulation in matters of safety,
How can a pilot land on the wrong runway and then try to take off again?
He would stop quicker on the runway than running along up to the take off speed? If that is what really happened-has a licence been pulled-subject to enquiry? Bloody amateures pretending to be pilots!
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OK so I am a lowly chopper jock
have been for 27 years now. .....I dont' know everything but I do Know if I was starting up my own operation tomorrow.... a lot of posters here would get a job tomorrow.
Setron - with your attitude, your backsatbbing, your vindictiveness, your sarcasm, your brilliant "Psychoanalytical" bull****.
I wouldn't hire you to make our coffee. We need TEAM PLAYERS.
People that go forward in life because they are good, not because they look good by making other people look bad.
have been for 27 years now. .....I dont' know everything but I do Know if I was starting up my own operation tomorrow.... a lot of posters here would get a job tomorrow.
Setron - with your attitude, your backsatbbing, your vindictiveness, your sarcasm, your brilliant "Psychoanalytical" bull****.
I wouldn't hire you to make our coffee. We need TEAM PLAYERS.
People that go forward in life because they are good, not because they look good by making other people look bad.
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Setron your reply about my first comment is unfounded. None of the 'stunts' by Scully and Laurie, were carried out with fair paying passengers on board.
Thank goodness you said you've headed north. You say Pitch&Fan has poor CRM. The temperament of your replies are horrendous. Good like to who ever shares a cockpit with you.
Thank goodness you said you've headed north. You say Pitch&Fan has poor CRM. The temperament of your replies are horrendous. Good like to who ever shares a cockpit with you.
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I dont think guys like Scully are the problem. They are not beyond reproach, but highly competant. All you have to do is look at these small regional airshows and manifestations of piloting idiocy like CC Pocock to see where ego and complacency collide. Cowboys beget cowboys, its the South African way. Ego and testosterone, hell of a combination. Take the Barberton airshow recently, if knocking over your safety officer with the leading edge of your C172's wing is not a metaphor for SA's aviation probelms then I dont know what is! As a keen, conservative and low hour (206) hour PPL, Im keen to learn as much as possible from you more experienced guys out there. keep the discussions coming and keep them frank!
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Well if I ever jump into an aero commander I think I can guarantee you won't be seeing me balancing glasses of water on the dash and barrel rolling, but that doesn't mean I don't respect and admire Bob Hoover.
I love to watch experts in their field perform expert shows that please the crowd, and blaming them for the actions of idiots is like criminals blaming tv shows.
I love to watch experts in their field perform expert shows that please the crowd, and blaming them for the actions of idiots is like criminals blaming tv shows.
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1st class not business class.
Unstable Load.
I see you are quick to jump up and down about Setron and his weird views, (which I actually think he was just setting people up for an argument, which he succeeded), but in the same breath, you have lots to chirp about the "useless CAA inspectors", who you basically call uneducated and love jollies around the world at your expense, travelling business class and living in 3 star hotels...oh, and asking for their S&T's before they leave.
Pray do tell me, that even when these dumb, stupid, uneducated inspectors arrive at the out - station, they find a string of non-compliances even though the sure up-standing operator has known of their pending visit for a couple of weeks.
Have you ever gone thru yr own files and checked to see whether yr pilots are using a generic empty weight or are they using the legit aircraft empty weight.
The fuel that is in the aircraft is what is written on the nav log......and is the same fuel used for the load sheet. (load-sheeet signed with lic number).
Have you checked that yr pilots have signed the autho sheet and actually read what they have signed......(just check that yr AIP supplements are up to date before you answer that question).
When was the last time that yr pilots did a quizz on the op's manual.
I could go on and on....but then again yr company has got zero non-compliances...(and I am the tooth fairy).
Please..before you throw stones at some other guy about what he has written, make sure your own doorstep is clear.
I am willing to put my ears on a block, that after chatting to guys in the Flight ops department at CAA that you change yr views very quickly after you battle to answer some of their technical questions. (and that is from guys all cultures in that office).
Unfortunately, the guys travell cattle class.
I dont see anything wrong in asking for a 3 star hotel.
Most pilots get their S&T's before they depart....is the CAA any different?.
Goffel...sitting on the beach, AGAIN
I see you are quick to jump up and down about Setron and his weird views, (which I actually think he was just setting people up for an argument, which he succeeded), but in the same breath, you have lots to chirp about the "useless CAA inspectors", who you basically call uneducated and love jollies around the world at your expense, travelling business class and living in 3 star hotels...oh, and asking for their S&T's before they leave.
Pray do tell me, that even when these dumb, stupid, uneducated inspectors arrive at the out - station, they find a string of non-compliances even though the sure up-standing operator has known of their pending visit for a couple of weeks.
Have you ever gone thru yr own files and checked to see whether yr pilots are using a generic empty weight or are they using the legit aircraft empty weight.
The fuel that is in the aircraft is what is written on the nav log......and is the same fuel used for the load sheet. (load-sheeet signed with lic number).
Have you checked that yr pilots have signed the autho sheet and actually read what they have signed......(just check that yr AIP supplements are up to date before you answer that question).
When was the last time that yr pilots did a quizz on the op's manual.
I could go on and on....but then again yr company has got zero non-compliances...(and I am the tooth fairy).
Please..before you throw stones at some other guy about what he has written, make sure your own doorstep is clear.
I am willing to put my ears on a block, that after chatting to guys in the Flight ops department at CAA that you change yr views very quickly after you battle to answer some of their technical questions. (and that is from guys all cultures in that office).
Unfortunately, the guys travell cattle class.
I dont see anything wrong in asking for a 3 star hotel.
Most pilots get their S&T's before they depart....is the CAA any different?.
Goffel...sitting on the beach, AGAIN
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CJ 750 - Of course we have to find out what happened in the "Rand" case to make it saver for all. Every accident should help to save lifes later but the rootproblem is not metalfatique...
How can you say something like this??
I forgot that if a wing breaks off in mid air, it obviously isnt the root problem.. Its purely pilot error...
How can you say something like this??
I forgot that if a wing breaks off in mid air, it obviously isnt the root problem.. Its purely pilot error...
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How well can you possibly know someone if you can't even spell his name?
Well, you know... itīs possible to know a lot about someone even not spelling his/her name the correct way.
Like my father, who canīt spell my name right even though Iīm already 21.
Just a remark.
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Purely pilot error..from what I hear they started to get turb and requested a return to the field..it was also an experimental aircraft so what about where and how it was built and maintained..so who U just to remark it was purely pilot error..I attended the funeral today and and doubt he would have intentionally wanted his wife and kids standing next to a coffin today..
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Regarding previous post
there is some confusion to what i meant:
I am ashamed to what Sentron said regarding the incident, it was a sarcastic remark stating it was pilot error.
I took it that he implied it was pilot error, i was a friend of the instructor in mention and am fully aware of his capabulities, without a wing he had no control of that aircraft.
i apologise for any confusion due to my grammatic error.
I am ashamed to what Sentron said regarding the incident, it was a sarcastic remark stating it was pilot error.
I took it that he implied it was pilot error, i was a friend of the instructor in mention and am fully aware of his capabulities, without a wing he had no control of that aircraft.
i apologise for any confusion due to my grammatic error.