Airlink Politics
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Setron & The Airlink Pilots,
While I'm not one of them, the "bigwigs" are actually just volenteer pilots and other expert staff who give (considerably) of their time to keep the profession on the straight and narrow.
Dump the "they" syndrome, and become part of the solution Old Fruit!
Then again... If you (and the other Airlink pilots) chose to remain a non-aligned association that's fine too. This is about you guys, and what's best for you. "Solidarity" just isn't gonna work for you... That's all. The Airlink pilot's issues extend well beyond salary increases, and require a very well considered strategy if you hope to make the place a career airline. If its just a stepping stone (and that's fair enough too), there may not be any need to get too organised.
Cheers,
P&F
While I'm not one of them, the "bigwigs" are actually just volenteer pilots and other expert staff who give (considerably) of their time to keep the profession on the straight and narrow.
Dump the "they" syndrome, and become part of the solution Old Fruit!
Then again... If you (and the other Airlink pilots) chose to remain a non-aligned association that's fine too. This is about you guys, and what's best for you. "Solidarity" just isn't gonna work for you... That's all. The Airlink pilot's issues extend well beyond salary increases, and require a very well considered strategy if you hope to make the place a career airline. If its just a stepping stone (and that's fair enough too), there may not be any need to get too organised.
Cheers,
P&F
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"Solidarity" just isn't gonna work for you...
I would never say that ALPA is bad or does not work, it's always the matter of "the glove must fit".
Let me try to explain in easier terms for the more narrow thinker's:
PC's and Windows are the most widely used systems in the world.
Then you have small Apple with Mac's and their OS.
Also only with a small market share, they seem to have a lot of followers and they also do quite a good job quality wise.
Microsoft stands for dominance through quantity and convenience.
Apple stands for quality and inovation.
If you get my drift, then back to aviation:
Are you a Bill or a Steve?
(PS: 1Time is apparently running on "Apple"!)
Last edited by Setron; 16th Sep 2008 at 15:19.
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Setron,
An interesting, and possibly valid point of view!
The Airlink guys must obviously do whatever works best for them.
Best regards,
P&F
PS: I run a MacBook!
An interesting, and possibly valid point of view!
The Airlink guys must obviously do whatever works best for them.
Best regards,
P&F
PS: I run a MacBook!
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Originally Posted by Tin-Tin
ALPA is the biggest joke EVER...They have been robbing pilots for far too long! Solidarity is much more efficient for only R55.00 a month!!
Airlink pilots received a 23 percent increase last year..They should not expect anything more than CPIX this year.. If you are not happy go and get a real job...
Airlink pilots received a 23 percent increase last year..They should not expect anything more than CPIX this year.. If you are not happy go and get a real job...
Originally Posted by Setron
No doubt, ALPA is an organisation, that does at times a good job!
It's just that it let itself be abused as a vehicle for personal gains and when they realized that, it was already too late. So they fired the chairman...
It's just that it let itself be abused as a vehicle for personal gains and when they realized that, it was already too late. So they fired the chairman...
1. The branch committees are nominated and elected by the pilot body of each airline. ALPA-SA has absolutely no influence on who gets elected. ALPA will simply facilitate the election process (print ballot papers, supply a venue for branch meetings and AGM's, etc.).
2. ALPA does not interfere or even prescribe how the branch should conduct their business. The role of ALPA is to supply support to the various branches. This is normally in form of access to specialists (labour practitioners, legal experts, etc).
3. Most of ALPA's work happens behind the scenes. For example: Legislation has just been passed that limits access to CVR information. The information contained on the CVR may only be used by the accident investigation team. This prevents transcripts ending up in the media where it may cause embarrassment or undue prosecution of air crews. The legislation is the product of many months of hard work by ALPA although very few pilots in the country is aware of it's existence - until they day it saves their butt's.
4. ALPA also provides support to individual members. The preparation of post accident/incident statements is an example. The crews of the nationwide accident in Cape Town and the Comair crew in Durban will testify of its value. Members are regularly supported in case at the Labour Court and sometimes even the Appeals Court of South Africa. In vast the majority of these cases the members win substantial financial compensation from greedy or unscrupulous employers (and all the legal costs are carried by ALPA - How's that for "Bang for your Buck"?)
5. Salary negotiations are up to the branch committees, with ALPA not getting involved in all. Should negotiations end in a stalemate, ALPA will supply suitably qualified arbitrators that are acceptable to all parties. If negotiations fail and industrial action (a strike by the pilots for example) follow, ALPA will organise the repatriation of stranded crews back to home base.
6. ALPA is continually involved at the highest level to ensure that airports comply to ICAO Annex 14 (Aerodrome Design and Operation). An example would be the runway safe area (or over run as it is known to some) at FAEL. The gradient of runway 11's overrun did not comply to the requirements of Annex 14. ACSA believed that by simply publishing a NOTAM, the problem would be solved. ALPA intervened and forced ACSA to reconstruct the area. Work should be complete by the end of October, making operation into FAEL safer for all.
And so the list continues - but I believe you're getting my drift.
If you two believe for one second that Solidarity has the know-how, influence or ability to accomplish half of the above (even at R55-00 a month!), you may be a lot slower than your parents have led you to believe.
The blame for poor performance by the last APA (Airlink Pilots Association) should be laid squarely at the feet of the members. 99% of pilots would not consider sacrificing their free time - and often money - to perform association activities (yes, it is a volunteer job and often requires extensive sacrifice).
If you want an association to work you need to stand together, pitch in when help is required and stay involved. The last point is very important - if the committee starts heading of on their own tangent, it should be swiftly pointed out and corrected - even it means electing a new committee
I suggest you get a grip and stop slagging an organisation whose activities are hugely beneficial to the vast majority of pilots in this country.
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Thanks for coming out from under your rock, reptile!
I am quite aware what ALPA is and does, but thanks anyway for the informative advertising!
If you haven't noticed, Tin Tin is quite an extremist but is as much entitled to his opinion as you are to yours, regardless on how much or little thinking was going on before.
As you are out now let me give you some info that you should have had before you pressed the key's:
During my time at AL(when it was still called SAAirlink!) we the "Jet-guys" were the outcasts, the hated ones, the bandits that were out to steal jobs from the more deserving!
The Jetstream-union(APA) was doing everything possible to get us fired and/or our careers put on hold indefinitely. Aim: If they are not fired, then they must be made to quit!
Yeah, the good old days, I can still smell the napalm in the air!
We, from our side tried to get some talks with APA going to get our views across, but were treated like scum and in fact as the enemy.
With no representation and joining ALPA meaning giving voice automatically to APA and through this more power to get our ass kicked, we decided after several failed attempts to be part of it, to start our own representation.
ALPA did't what to hear anything about a separate branch, as there was one already (the jetstream-union called APA)!
And we grew in size rather quickly, cause pilots are not stupid and know when they are abused by a frew individuals.
Solidatity was open for everyone, even the shunned chairman from APA!
ALPA never bothered to find out why they lost members(We are soooo big, we have everything under control, there is nothing else then us anyway,...).
To cut a long story short:
Solidarity won the trust of the majority, despite the bitching and moaning from the old, leftover APAniens which even helped management by leaking information in order to sink the new Solidarity ship!!!
So my friend,.. if you know ****, then don't talk about things, because it might be only **** you are talking!
We did exactly what you said:
Read and investigate before you make stupid comments!
I said ALPA just failed in the form of APA, cause they had not the ability or willingness to see that there were pilots in need of some better representation. ALPA is still an organisation that can and will succeed in other theatres of operation (like SAA...)
Now go back under your rock and think a little for a change!
I know you are a "Bill" but try to be a "Steve" some times!
I am quite aware what ALPA is and does, but thanks anyway for the informative advertising!
If you haven't noticed, Tin Tin is quite an extremist but is as much entitled to his opinion as you are to yours, regardless on how much or little thinking was going on before.
As you are out now let me give you some info that you should have had before you pressed the key's:
During my time at AL(when it was still called SAAirlink!) we the "Jet-guys" were the outcasts, the hated ones, the bandits that were out to steal jobs from the more deserving!
The Jetstream-union(APA) was doing everything possible to get us fired and/or our careers put on hold indefinitely. Aim: If they are not fired, then they must be made to quit!
Yeah, the good old days, I can still smell the napalm in the air!
We, from our side tried to get some talks with APA going to get our views across, but were treated like scum and in fact as the enemy.
With no representation and joining ALPA meaning giving voice automatically to APA and through this more power to get our ass kicked, we decided after several failed attempts to be part of it, to start our own representation.
ALPA did't what to hear anything about a separate branch, as there was one already (the jetstream-union called APA)!
And we grew in size rather quickly, cause pilots are not stupid and know when they are abused by a frew individuals.
Solidatity was open for everyone, even the shunned chairman from APA!
ALPA never bothered to find out why they lost members(We are soooo big, we have everything under control, there is nothing else then us anyway,...).
To cut a long story short:
Solidarity won the trust of the majority, despite the bitching and moaning from the old, leftover APAniens which even helped management by leaking information in order to sink the new Solidarity ship!!!
So my friend,.. if you know ****, then don't talk about things, because it might be only **** you are talking!
We did exactly what you said:
If you want an association to work you need to stand together, pitch in when help is required and stay involved. The last point is very important - if the committee starts heading of on their own tangent, it should be swiftly pointed out and corrected - even it means electing a new committee
I said ALPA just failed in the form of APA, cause they had not the ability or willingness to see that there were pilots in need of some better representation. ALPA is still an organisation that can and will succeed in other theatres of operation (like SAA...)
Now go back under your rock and think a little for a change!
I know you are a "Bill" but try to be a "Steve" some times!
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Originally Posted by Setron
So my friend,.. if you know ****, then don't talk about things, because it might be only **** you are talking!
Originally Posted by suitcaseman
Reptile started name calling by insinuating that the majority of Airlink pilots are stupid because they support Solidarity
Originally Posted by suitcaseman
Most pilots are not mediators, negociators(sic) or lawyers
Originally Posted by Setron
I said ALPA just failed in the form of APA
Just to make sure I "know my **** before I talk, or don't talk, about things" (or something to that effect):
Setron got upset because the Airlink pilots - many of whom had many years of loyal service under the belt - tried to stand up to protect their career progression when RF employed a bunch of guys from outside the company to operate the newest and most advanced aircraft in the company?
Put yourself in their shoes for a second and see if you would have reacted differently.
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Reptiles point about pilots volenteering is exactly the problem with ALPA in my opinion. Most pilots are not mediators, negociators or lawyers (or spellers) - leave it to the professionals.
Some of our branch volunteers (as an example) are in fact qualified and experienced Lawyers, Engineers and ex Managers at Multi National Companies.
Rest further in "Confinement..."
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Correct suitcaseman!
But we have to remember that the chairman was a kind of professional...
Professional self-centered... worked for him out to about R3-4 m!
To go with below that would have been stupid and that he was not!
Hey reppy!
I did,and not just for a second but I think they never did that with us!
I was employed on the ERJ135! Up to now it is still OK to take a job without asking everybody else in the company if that is OK!
They got employed or upgraded onto the J41 and never asked me if thats OK!
But I recon thats OK with me!
If you believe the grand ideas of a company about expansion and put all your eggs in that basket, then you are plain lazy and deserve no better!
Now I belive that a couple got their jet anyway (146). If the whole thing would still matter careerwise to me, then I would have had to agree, that the 41's got preference on that upgrade. No matter if I wanted onto the 146 or not!
I checked, and no 135er got onto the 146 yet..., time to think again my four leged, crawling friend!
Career protection is good, very good but don't try to f
k someone else over in the process and expect him to say thank you.
Two wrongs don't make a right! (Except in your eyes!)
Oh, I know it might be a little much for you, but here is another thing for you to think about under your rock:
How much did ALPA support me as a member, when I was attacked by the APAniens and my career was in jeopardy?...........
Don't get squashed!
But we have to remember that the chairman was a kind of professional...
Professional self-centered... worked for him out to about R3-4 m!
To go with below that would have been stupid and that he was not!
Hey reppy!
Put yourself in their shoes for a second
I was employed on the ERJ135! Up to now it is still OK to take a job without asking everybody else in the company if that is OK!
They got employed or upgraded onto the J41 and never asked me if thats OK!
But I recon thats OK with me!
If you believe the grand ideas of a company about expansion and put all your eggs in that basket, then you are plain lazy and deserve no better!
Now I belive that a couple got their jet anyway (146). If the whole thing would still matter careerwise to me, then I would have had to agree, that the 41's got preference on that upgrade. No matter if I wanted onto the 146 or not!
I checked, and no 135er got onto the 146 yet..., time to think again my four leged, crawling friend!
Career protection is good, very good but don't try to f
k someone else over in the process and expect him to say thank you.Two wrongs don't make a right! (Except in your eyes!)
Oh, I know it might be a little much for you, but here is another thing for you to think about under your rock:
How much did ALPA support me as a member, when I was attacked by the APAniens and my career was in jeopardy?...........
Don't get squashed!
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1. Pilot groups affiliated with ALPA-SA are better paid, have better working conditions and are far more protected against industry up's and downs than those who are not.
2. What proffesional services can Solidarity provide other than aiding in salary negotiations?
3. Every major airline (Pilots) in this country is associated with ALPA-SA except Link
4. Every major carrier (Pilots) in the world is associated with IFALPA.
5. This Link-Solidarity story is based on bruised ego's and not been well thought out.
6. Stick with Solidarity and continue to suck the hind tit and please don't moan about it because we all earn more than you, have better perks than you and in general have better jobs than you and therefore don't really care.
7 If you choose to see the error in your ways I'm sure the organisation that supports the vast majority of proffessioanl pilots in this country will welcome you back.
DH
ALPA-SA Supporter.
2. What proffesional services can Solidarity provide other than aiding in salary negotiations?
3. Every major airline (Pilots) in this country is associated with ALPA-SA except Link
4. Every major carrier (Pilots) in the world is associated with IFALPA.
5. This Link-Solidarity story is based on bruised ego's and not been well thought out.
6. Stick with Solidarity and continue to suck the hind tit and please don't moan about it because we all earn more than you, have better perks than you and in general have better jobs than you and therefore don't really care.
7 If you choose to see the error in your ways I'm sure the organisation that supports the vast majority of proffessioanl pilots in this country will welcome you back.
DH
ALPA-SA Supporter.
Last edited by divinehover; 18th Sep 2008 at 09:53.
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Don't understand the thread if link pilots are leading the way! Believe you fellows were bitching about link ??????????
About, upgrades, movement between fleets etc, surely the Union should negotiate that on your behalf? I don't work for an ALPA backed airline, and believe there is nothing wrong with Solidarity, but I think you fellows are pissing into the wind.
Grow up.
About, upgrades, movement between fleets etc, surely the Union should negotiate that on your behalf? I don't work for an ALPA backed airline, and believe there is nothing wrong with Solidarity, but I think you fellows are pissing into the wind.
Grow up.
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Speculation:
Wrong:
Fact:
1Time is represented through Solidarity!
Steve
Solidarity" just isn't gonna work for you...
worked for him out to about R3-4 m!
Stick with Solidarity and continue to suck the hind tit
APAniens which even helped management by leaking information in order to sink the new Solidarity ship
Every airline (Pilots) in this country is associated with ALPA-SA except Link
APA failed in the form of APA
far more protected against industry up's and downs
Link pilots tried ALPA and it didnt work.
Steve
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I think this debate is getting out of hand.
Things did happen in the past that were wrong (during ALPA).
I also recon things JUST happened that are wrong (during Solidarity).
The ALPA structure works well for airlines with a low pilot turnover, link has always, and prob will always have a high turnover. The ALPA structure did not work for link. Solidarity has a different structure and it works ok for link pilots. In the past year we have had quite a few shopstewards, there is thus no continuaty.
So in that respect, ALPA did fail. But it was more the APLA structure than ALPA itself.
It was not just APA that leaked info to management, Solidarity was instructed to settle salary negotiations for nothing less than 18%. Thus you enter at say 22%. Solidarity's opening offer was 18%. (we ended with 11%
)
As I said earlier; things happened during ALPA days and things happened during Solidarity days. The fact is people no longer have values. If you are negotiating you are not doing it for yourself but for others, the members.
Management sucks (especially JVJ)
SN
Things did happen in the past that were wrong (during ALPA).
I also recon things JUST happened that are wrong (during Solidarity).
The ALPA structure works well for airlines with a low pilot turnover, link has always, and prob will always have a high turnover. The ALPA structure did not work for link. Solidarity has a different structure and it works ok for link pilots. In the past year we have had quite a few shopstewards, there is thus no continuaty.
So in that respect, ALPA did fail. But it was more the APLA structure than ALPA itself.
It was not just APA that leaked info to management, Solidarity was instructed to settle salary negotiations for nothing less than 18%. Thus you enter at say 22%. Solidarity's opening offer was 18%. (we ended with 11%
)As I said earlier; things happened during ALPA days and things happened during Solidarity days. The fact is people no longer have values. If you are negotiating you are not doing it for yourself but for others, the members.
Management sucks (especially JVJ)
SN
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airlink is by far the worst operator that i have had the misfortune to be associated with. They cannot even be classified as a two bit airline. The caa and iosa should have a long hard look at this operation and see how management is detrimental to flight operational safety. To bad i have to consider the negatives of a bond
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Nominations are open to fill vacant positions on the ALPA-SA ExCo. These postions are open to any ALPA-SA member. Should Comair or SAX or Mango nominate a candidate for these positions they stand as much chance of filling the posts as any SAAPA member.
I wonder how many of his colleagues Champagne Lover has nominated in the past.
I wonder how many of his colleagues Champagne Lover has nominated in the past.
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(read money.....subs..... which could rather be used for SAPA members)