FAWB : Ticking Time Bomb?
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FAWB : Ticking Time Bomb?
On Thursday 15 May 2008 around 12:00 UTC :
I was listening to the radio and in about 5 minutes no less than 2 different aircraft did not listen to the ATC and did their own thing???
The first was a helicopter crossing the active runway with aircraft rolling without clearance and the second a trainer "interpreting" the instruction by the ATC to climb from 5100 - 5600 as an inbound clearance to join downwind????
Now really there has been considerable issues over the last few months / years but this is now getting to the point of ridicule?
Why are instructors letting student pilots loose if they are not able to listen to ATC? Or why are pilots and instructors doing their own thing as if ATC is not there?
Stirred
VG300
I was listening to the radio and in about 5 minutes no less than 2 different aircraft did not listen to the ATC and did their own thing???
The first was a helicopter crossing the active runway with aircraft rolling without clearance and the second a trainer "interpreting" the instruction by the ATC to climb from 5100 - 5600 as an inbound clearance to join downwind????
Now really there has been considerable issues over the last few months / years but this is now getting to the point of ridicule?
Why are instructors letting student pilots loose if they are not able to listen to ATC? Or why are pilots and instructors doing their own thing as if ATC is not there?
Stirred
VG300
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VG300 you are right. Its a matter of time. Certain ATC's have also been known to issue very questionable instructions to IF flights, which would have resulted in midairs had it not been for VMC. I dread every time I have to fly in there, which thankfully is not often, wondering what midair surprise awaits me and my trustworthy broomstick.
As for some of the maintenance done there - I am speechless by the things sometimes signed off ready to fly.
And then there are those guys and gals who believe themselves the greatest gift to aviation since the Wrights, who operate out of an air law manual customised individually for each of them.
Yes indeed, WB is a time bomb.
As for some of the maintenance done there - I am speechless by the things sometimes signed off ready to fly.
And then there are those guys and gals who believe themselves the greatest gift to aviation since the Wrights, who operate out of an air law manual customised individually for each of them.
Yes indeed, WB is a time bomb.
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A family member of mine is instructor at WB and has personally filed two incidents against student pilots. Also know of students "washed" by his flying school because they just couldn't cut it who just walked across to the neighbouring flying school to be gladly accepted and they are back in the air!
But I suppose we need to train for our national carrier - oops
But I suppose we need to train for our national carrier - oops
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The reasons are obvious,
Wonderboom is the airport in South Africa which has the largest quantity of flying schools on a sigle Airport.
Mixing pilots that have no experience with General Aviation simply does not work, on top of this Wonderboom ATC is also where the Junior ATC's do their training.
This combination together with the fact that the standards of people being trained being as low as possible in order to cram in more students is a disaster waiting to happen.
Instructors need to start paying some serious attention to the students they are sending into the general aviation sector, the standards are the poorest I have ever seen.
Wonderboom is the airport in South Africa which has the largest quantity of flying schools on a sigle Airport.
Mixing pilots that have no experience with General Aviation simply does not work, on top of this Wonderboom ATC is also where the Junior ATC's do their training.
This combination together with the fact that the standards of people being trained being as low as possible in order to cram in more students is a disaster waiting to happen.
Instructors need to start paying some serious attention to the students they are sending into the general aviation sector, the standards are the poorest I have ever seen.
Está servira para distraerle.
Perhaps one might be permitted to refer all and sundry to this link...
http://www.relta.org/icao.html
Of course, one remembers FAWB with great affection as being an airfield where no one was prepared to acknowledge that they understood what anyone other than a taalprater (?) was talking about, even were they themselves sufficiently educated to speak a language rather than the often mentioned and rather hideous, primitive African dialect.
Perhaps if the SA CAA were to make an exception in the case of FAWB and, before allowing anyone to get their Koeksistered fingers on an aircraft, require everyone to demonstrate proficiency in English to at least the standard of ICAO Level 5, there might be less incidences of attempted linguistic suicide, carefully concealed behind the drapery known so affectionately to some as the Boerewors curtain!
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This is a problem at FAGM as well. One of the biggest concerns is the amount of not-relevant info taking up valuable RT time and resulting in an unnecessary severe pressure burden on student pilots. The other day I flew into Rand for the first time in years. I tried calling Rand inbound and eventually get a chance on the busy airwaves only to be told "I will call you back." Three orbits over RD later and no call back, I call again only to get the same response. Another two orbits with aircraft departing under me for the GF, I call again and finally get cleared to 35 with an instruction to call on final 35. On short final and still no opportunity to make this call due to excessive radio chatter (including some idiot advising he thinks Rands QNH is wrong because his altimeter tells him this and ATC asking him what he would like the QNH to be!!) I finally get a belated "cleared to land" call from ATC when I'm already over the threshold. I have flown in various countries and in a variety of aircraft types. I was getting very frustrated in the above-mentioned scenario and can only imagine what a student pilot must feel in this environment. The type of chatter going on and the unnecessary questions from ATC to just about every a/c that called him, the huge amounts of double transmissions which are no good to man or beast, the discrepancy in performance between "ultralight" type aircraft with amazing climb rates and little forward movement over the ground vs standard Cessnas, Pipers and a few Kingairs thrown in (even a DC9) is entirely unacceptable and it is only a matter of time before we have a catastrophe. I can remember when I was a student at Rand there would be up to seven aircraft in the circuit and you could still keep track. Today I heard two aircraft in the circuit and another one calls to do circuits only to be advised by ATC that the circuit is "saturated!?" The circuit is not "saturated" only the airwaves are. If ATC themselves would cut down on all their added chatter the circuit would handle more aircraft.
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Agreed so whole heartedly.
I am finding more and more that ATNS just cannot cope with more than a few aircraft at once, before they start bleating. They need to realise that its the 21st century now, and meet the expectations of those that PAY them for a service. If you can't hack it, let another service provider into the market.
Not sure if its levels of competency that have dropped or just levels of willingness to provide a decent service, but something needs to be done drastically.
The tail is starting to wag the dog in SA aviation...
I am finding more and more that ATNS just cannot cope with more than a few aircraft at once, before they start bleating. They need to realise that its the 21st century now, and meet the expectations of those that PAY them for a service. If you can't hack it, let another service provider into the market.
Not sure if its levels of competency that have dropped or just levels of willingness to provide a decent service, but something needs to be done drastically.
The tail is starting to wag the dog in SA aviation...
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Is it possible ATC workload has increased due to excess paperwork in order to cover arses and extract fees? This would mean ATC are not able to concentrate on their primary task of controlling, instead fulfilling a function that keeps bureaucrats at "Head Office" in 4X4s and holiday homes. Never having worked in their environment, I'm able to only speculate on this but if the rest of the industry is anything to go by, this may well be the case. Fewer and fewer people can be accommodated with levels of service dropping accordingly, but those few are now required to pay more to keep an ever increasing revenue stream flowing into the coffers of ATNS.
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Cheetah
I did most of my flight training at the Tree and I have never encountered anybody that was not able to converse in English. Worst case was the airport cleaner, but even he mastered at least a Level 4. Your references to the boerewors curtain and the hideous, primitive African dialect, are a little ridiculous. You can do better than that, I'm sure.
I think the problem is rather discipline. The students are not given the time or the necessary radio training before being let loose into the circuit or the GF. And here it doesnt matter what language the student speaks at home.....even the educated ones have trouble talking to ATC.
I did most of my flight training at the Tree and I have never encountered anybody that was not able to converse in English. Worst case was the airport cleaner, but even he mastered at least a Level 4. Your references to the boerewors curtain and the hideous, primitive African dialect, are a little ridiculous. You can do better than that, I'm sure.
I think the problem is rather discipline. The students are not given the time or the necessary radio training before being let loose into the circuit or the GF. And here it doesnt matter what language the student speaks at home.....even the educated ones have trouble talking to ATC.
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But I suppose we need to train for our national carrier - oops
Totally uncalled for remark.
This reflects poorly on the standard of the instructors and/or the flying school......and I can assure you that the "national carrier's" instructors will not tolerate a poor standard
Last edited by flyknight; 19th May 2008 at 13:48. Reason: spelling edited courtesy of Juliet Sierra Papa
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Tick Tick - Bang Boom Crash!
I wonder why the ATC are telling people to call back in 2 or 5 or 15 minutes due to frequency congestion - just to hear 2 to 3 minutes of radio silence after the transmission?
Is this an excuse for the ATC being trained to be briefed - in other words are the pilots now also expected to pay effectively for the ATC to be trained - are the ATNS going to support the pilots for the up to R2500 per hour that goes wasted in a twin having to hold outside controlled airspace or at the holding point while ATC are chit-chatting and doing briefings?
I realise training has to be done but at the expense of the pilots and general aviation - I don't think that is on?
Hannes
Is this an excuse for the ATC being trained to be briefed - in other words are the pilots now also expected to pay effectively for the ATC to be trained - are the ATNS going to support the pilots for the up to R2500 per hour that goes wasted in a twin having to hold outside controlled airspace or at the holding point while ATC are chit-chatting and doing briefings?
I realise training has to be done but at the expense of the pilots and general aviation - I don't think that is on?
Hannes
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Hi flyknight,
be careful or you may lead by example,
People tend to read what they see!!!
"carreer's" carriers maybe?
"tollerate" tolerate!
Not trying to give you uphill here, just pointing out how easy a mistake can be misread.
The standards must be raised surely or there will be a very serious incident or God forbid accident due very soon.
be careful or you may lead by example,
This reflects poorly on the standard of the instructors and/or the flying school......and I can assure you that the "national carreer's" instructors will not tollerate a poor standard!
"carreer's" carriers maybe?
"tollerate" tolerate!
Not trying to give you uphill here, just pointing out how easy a mistake can be misread.
The standards must be raised surely or there will be a very serious incident or God forbid accident due very soon.
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Bang????
I can only say - I'm amazed at the poor airmanship and lack of co-operation and aggressive - I will do what I want attitudes displayed by the crowds of pilots & ATC's in this regard.
I wonder what the true issue here is?
1. Are ATC's supposed to assist pilots to fly safe?
or
2. Are pilots flying to help ATC's?
I must say I doubt no 2 as ATC only have a function because aircraft fly - But it sounds like some ATC's has the attitude that aviation exists because of them? Only thing that exists because of them is the trouble pilots have?
Now again there are pilots that have the idea that they are the best thing that has happened to earth since the creation? Sorry to pop their bubble - but we all pilots and ATC exist only because of aircraft flying - it is our duty to co-operate to make the flight as safe as possible - and not as difficult for others as possible?
Stirred????
VG300
I wonder what the true issue here is?
1. Are ATC's supposed to assist pilots to fly safe?
or
2. Are pilots flying to help ATC's?
I must say I doubt no 2 as ATC only have a function because aircraft fly - But it sounds like some ATC's has the attitude that aviation exists because of them? Only thing that exists because of them is the trouble pilots have?
Now again there are pilots that have the idea that they are the best thing that has happened to earth since the creation? Sorry to pop their bubble - but we all pilots and ATC exist only because of aircraft flying - it is our duty to co-operate to make the flight as safe as possible - and not as difficult for others as possible?
Stirred????
VG300
Está servira para distraerle.
FAGM was always a bit of an ATC nightmare, going back to thirty years ago.
Pilots who had trained at Rand had no trouble negotiating the ATC rigmaroles at FALA or FAJS. All other fields quiet after the mine dumps.
What of course may be a scenario for the future is one where private flying is almost entirely prevented in South Africa. This might even be a government objective, at least insofar as certain ministers might be concerned? This end could be achieved by all sorts of means, either fiscal, legislative or even punitive.
One could then end up with a few 'approved' schools, whose main function would be to train local pilots for local airline jobs and to fulfill the need for overseas airlines' training on a contractual basis. These schools would eventually and inevitably become responsible for the ATC control monitoring at the airfields from which they operated. At those airfields overseas where this sort of quality control exists, uniformity of training and fluid flow of traffic are ensured, albeit to the advantage of the so called approved schools.
Furthermore, through such means as subsidies and controls, the government is in a position to determine precisely which local students pass successfully through the system.
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Having spent the last few weeks back at my 'roots' at the 'boom, I wanna get my 5c worth.
FAWB has always been a training airfield and is ideal. Great runways, GFA is close and good facilities. Having done a 1000hrs of instruction there about 15yrs ago and over the last few years chopper instruction.
I have no idea why ATC now needs 'slots' for ex 12&13 and can't have more than THREE, yeah THREE!!!! in the circuit???? 15 yrs ago we had 7 in the circuit at night on a regular basis!!!
Sorry guys, don't blame the students, I refuse to believe the students have got worse in the last 15yrs.
I can honestly say that ATC, is without a doubt, the worst I have ever encountered. Case in point was last summer:-
It was before 7am and we were 3 choppers and 6 fixed wings happily doing our own thing. The siren went and this voice declared that 2 fixed wings and 1 chopper would have to make a full stop!!!
Sorry guys, get with the program or stay at home!!!
ATC needs to stop talking rubbish, and needs to listen out!!! The amount of wasted transmissions I have heard in the last 3 weeks is astounding!!!
- If I call downwind number 2, DON'T ask if I have the 1 ahead in sight.
- If I call ready for an immediate, don't ask again 30 sec later!!!!
and it goes on and on.
ATC at FAWB needs to put its ego in its pocket, and accept it needs a quantum change in attitude. Listen to what the industry is telling you!!!
If not, get Gav/Hendrik and the boys/girls back !!!
FAWB has always been a training airfield and is ideal. Great runways, GFA is close and good facilities. Having done a 1000hrs of instruction there about 15yrs ago and over the last few years chopper instruction.
I have no idea why ATC now needs 'slots' for ex 12&13 and can't have more than THREE, yeah THREE!!!! in the circuit???? 15 yrs ago we had 7 in the circuit at night on a regular basis!!!
Sorry guys, don't blame the students, I refuse to believe the students have got worse in the last 15yrs.
I can honestly say that ATC, is without a doubt, the worst I have ever encountered. Case in point was last summer:-
It was before 7am and we were 3 choppers and 6 fixed wings happily doing our own thing. The siren went and this voice declared that 2 fixed wings and 1 chopper would have to make a full stop!!!
Sorry guys, get with the program or stay at home!!!
ATC needs to stop talking rubbish, and needs to listen out!!! The amount of wasted transmissions I have heard in the last 3 weeks is astounding!!!
- If I call downwind number 2, DON'T ask if I have the 1 ahead in sight.
- If I call ready for an immediate, don't ask again 30 sec later!!!!
and it goes on and on.
ATC at FAWB needs to put its ego in its pocket, and accept it needs a quantum change in attitude. Listen to what the industry is telling you!!!
If not, get Gav/Hendrik and the boys/girls back !!!
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I have no idea why ATC now needs 'slots' for ex 12&13 and can't have more than THREE, yeah THREE!!!! in the circuit???? 15 yrs ago we had 7 in the circuit at night on a regular basis!!!
It was before 7am and we were 3 choppers and 6 fixed wings happily doing our own thing. The siren went and this voice declared that 2 fixed wings and 1 chopper would have to make a full stop!!!
