B1900 landing on the road at Windhoek
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Goffel: if you read my posts not once do I say that Cemairs a/c are dodgey. BUT, I do say that Miles, the man running things there is dodgey (I think his record speaks for itself) and before the avalanche started was just trying to show how I find it a strange coincidence that there's a coverup going on (albiet a bay-air/pilot one) and he is somehow connected to the plane in the bigger scheme of things. As with the Van once again he was the operator and had the a/c on the AOC of mr P.A. That is all. Once again it is just interesting.
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Take a turn and see how they operate there. You really have no clue what you are talking about, but thats fairly clear everytime you open your snout.
Since you are such a stickler for quality, its intersting that you were happy driving around in PA unmaintained scrap. Probably because you are a space shuttle pilot that knew best.
Since you are such a stickler for quality, its intersting that you were happy driving around in PA unmaintained scrap. Probably because you are a space shuttle pilot that knew best.
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Messy faeces
Guys, as an outsider : Cemair aircraft are brilliant. Snags are attended to promptly, paperwork is spot on. They are really pretty good now and a lot better than some big names at Lanseria.
The crew messed up, its got nothing to do with maintenance, it got to do with crew not knowing the aircraft, crew whom are in denial to reality, crew whom are un-professional, crew who have tried to cover up. Crew whom have lied, but more seriously to themselves. They have become the laughing stock and are being ridiculed ....not for what happened, but for lying.
The crew messed up, its got nothing to do with maintenance, it got to do with crew not knowing the aircraft, crew whom are in denial to reality, crew whom are un-professional, crew who have tried to cover up. Crew whom have lied, but more seriously to themselves. They have become the laughing stock and are being ridiculed ....not for what happened, but for lying.
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Townsh1t Dog - There is no strange/weird/funny/amusing/conspiratorial coincidence here - you have created one (moron).
Have you ever met Miles? Or spoken to him regarding his operation? How do you call someone dodgy when you've never conversed with him or seen his operation first hand? From the mutt's mouth "the man running things there is dodgey" which implies you think CemAir is dodgy. So basically you have some pre-conceived idea of how things should be with very little actual experience to back those ideas up...its the "as long as I get paid, I don't care what happens" attitude.
I find it quite ridiculous how this industry operates - nothing better to do with your time than gossip like a bunch of schoolgirls - and yes, I know you have a bigger d1ck than me so I suggest you put it away, shut up now and next time think before you yap.
Have you ever met Miles? Or spoken to him regarding his operation? How do you call someone dodgy when you've never conversed with him or seen his operation first hand? From the mutt's mouth "the man running things there is dodgey" which implies you think CemAir is dodgy. So basically you have some pre-conceived idea of how things should be with very little actual experience to back those ideas up...its the "as long as I get paid, I don't care what happens" attitude.
I find it quite ridiculous how this industry operates - nothing better to do with your time than gossip like a bunch of schoolgirls - and yes, I know you have a bigger d1ck than me so I suggest you put it away, shut up now and next time think before you yap.
Last edited by FatFlaps; 27th Mar 2008 at 07:34. Reason: Spelling
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""The crew messed up, its got nothing to do with maintenance, it got to do with crew not knowing the aircraft, crew whom are in denial to reality, crew whom are un-professional, crew who have tried to cover up. Crew whom have lied, but more seriously to themselves. They have become the laughing stock and are being ridiculed ....not for what happened, but for lying.""
Great post there!! that is the only truth that matters in this case.
Great post there!! that is the only truth that matters in this case.
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I cant understand why Cemair is being pulled through the mud on this, they simply own the aircraft. Or is this an attemp to deflect flak from the operator who should surley have systems in place to prevent such a situation from happening.
I've done some bussiness with Cemair in the recent past and it seemed like a very slick operation to me. It was also a pleasure doing bussiness with Mr VD Molen, who despite his so called "past reputation" of which I have little knowledge, seemed to run a good show. I'd do bussiness with them again.
I've done some bussiness with Cemair in the recent past and it seemed like a very slick operation to me. It was also a pleasure doing bussiness with Mr VD Molen, who despite his so called "past reputation" of which I have little knowledge, seemed to run a good show. I'd do bussiness with them again.
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Reply on Knormoer's statement
Knor
I am not sure if you are from an English speaking prt of this planet , but you should read my post carefully .
I did not say that the pilot or the operation was part of the National Carrier , Air Baboonia .
I said that Namibia's aviation is corrupted and need to see a doctor .
You " laaities " are getting very emosional when **** like this happen , and post actually very funny replies to congratulate the crew of a job well done etc etc .
I am not an aviation expert , but tell me if a 1900 is supposed to be banked steep if the low fuel warning has been sounded in the cockpit .
I have heard a birdie ( maybe a vulture ) say that the crew banked the 1900 steeper than 45 % to get it back to the airport .
It is sort of logic that some **** will happen with steep turns and no or low fuel in the wing isn't it ?
Why did the crew did a go around when the ceiling was apparently 400feet ( according to crew landing before this incident )
Maybe **** training , bad IF renewal , to use to good Nam weather , to use to flying to Eros with low fuel to safe the Babe Watch guys a minute on the climb etc etc .
Was this crew ever trained on a Sim ? I guess not .
I give Air Baboonia min dae before they get blacklisted from Eurocontrol .
Enjoy !
I am not sure if you are from an English speaking prt of this planet , but you should read my post carefully .
I did not say that the pilot or the operation was part of the National Carrier , Air Baboonia .
I said that Namibia's aviation is corrupted and need to see a doctor .
You " laaities " are getting very emosional when **** like this happen , and post actually very funny replies to congratulate the crew of a job well done etc etc .
I am not an aviation expert , but tell me if a 1900 is supposed to be banked steep if the low fuel warning has been sounded in the cockpit .
I have heard a birdie ( maybe a vulture ) say that the crew banked the 1900 steeper than 45 % to get it back to the airport .
It is sort of logic that some **** will happen with steep turns and no or low fuel in the wing isn't it ?
Why did the crew did a go around when the ceiling was apparently 400feet ( according to crew landing before this incident )
Maybe **** training , bad IF renewal , to use to good Nam weather , to use to flying to Eros with low fuel to safe the Babe Watch guys a minute on the climb etc etc .
Was this crew ever trained on a Sim ? I guess not .
I give Air Baboonia min dae before they get blacklisted from Eurocontrol .
Enjoy !
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I might be flogging an already tired horse here, but in fairness if one reads the man (womans?) posts, TDog isn't saying anything about cemair its self, but is on more of a rant about Miles.
And once again in fairness, hasn't Miles been reponsible for a few deaths in SA because of disputeable maintenance/procedures etc?
As far as I can remember there is a smoking crater at the end of Rand airports rwy and on on the threshold at FAJS which he put there aparently due to overloading/timex engines etc.
If you read the judgement handed down by Judge PJ du Plessis you'll find tha the doggy has a point:
This is taken from the CAA statement of ZS-OJY the Cheiftan that crashed at Rand:
Mr. P. J. Du Plessis, the Magistrate presiding over the Judicial Inquest into the deaths caused by the fatal aircraft accident near Rand Airport on 6 December 1999, in which 10 lives were lost, released his findings and recommendations yesterday. The Judicial Inquest was conducted over sixteen days during April 2002.
The CAA welcomed and cooperated fully with the inquest proceedings and hoped that this process would assist in closing this tragic event, particularly for the families of the victims of the crash.
The crashed aircraft operated by Flightline Charters had taken off from Rand Airport on a commercial charter flight to Orangemund in Namibia, when shortly after taking off, the pilot reported an emergency to the control tower and requested clearance to return to the airport to land. The aircraft crashed about two minutes after take off and everybody on board lost their lives.
The investigation into the accident, conducted by the CAA, revealed that the probable cause of the accident was the failure of a critical exhaust pipe segment, which in turn caused the right-hand engine to lose power/fail. It is was also found that the aircraft exceeded it's designed load limit.
This overloaded condition of the aircraft was thus a highly significant contributory factor to the accident. The company’s lack of flight operations management experience, professional flight standards supervision and an operational safety management program were regarded as significant contributing factors.
The anomalies noted in regulatory oversight of the operator (airworthiness and flight operations surveillance by the former Chief Directorate:CAA in the Department of Transport and CAA are regarded as possible contributing factors.
According to the Commissioner for Civil Aviation, Mr. Trevor Abrahams "this was a landmark accident investigation for the Civil Aviation Authority as it represents a whole new approach to investigating accidents through a detailed investigation not only of the immediate circumstances and conditions surrounding the accident, but also a close look at the chain of actions and inactions by all connected parties that could be identified as possibly contributing to the tragic event.
A total of 17 safety recommendations arose out of the investigation. Fifteen of these were directed at the Civil Aviation Authority for implementation. The other two were each directed at the pilot community and at commercial charter operators.
Inquest findings highlighted the following aspects surrounding the accident.
The aircraft sustained a power loss in the right hand engine shortly after take off and that the pilot flew the aircraft in accordance with the pilot’s operating handbook.
The aircraft was certified to fly on one engine but that the overweight condition resulted in the subsequent crash.
The magistrate also found that the accident investigation conducted by the CAA was extensive and that the overweight of the aircraft was substantially under reported in the accident report and that the actual weight of the aircraft was substantially more than the certified maximum take off weight limit of the aircraft.
The magistrate also found that the operator’s practices in loading the aircraft was at variance with the approved operators manual of Flight Line Charter Services in that the baggage was not weighed nor was the required weight and balance calculated for the accident flight.
The magistrate emphasized that once the CAA approved an Operations Manual, the operators had a responsibility to ensure compliance with that approved Operations Manual.
The operator was found to have deviated significantly from the CAA approved Operators Manual in terms of the critical issue of weight and balance of their aircraft. Specifically, the accident flight was loaded to capacity and the General Manager should have ensured proper weighing of the cargo and passengers on the 6th of December 1999.
The magistrate also found that the CEO of Flightline Charter Services C.C. had erroneously amended the Pilots Operating Handbook, thereby giving the pilot an incorrect basis for calculating the maximum take off mass of the aircraft.
The magistrate’s recommendations included:
1. That the CAA consider disciplinary steps against officers who accepted the patently incorrect information submitted on the test flight report submitted to the CAA. The magistrate also ruled that the remoteness of this action ruled out any prosecution involving the CAA.
2. That the maintenance organization (AMO), PLACO’s failure to notify the CAA when the Mandatory Periodic Inspections were late or over flown, was a serious indictment of the AMO. The magistrate also found PLACO’s conduct as the seller and registration AMO as warranting severe criticism but that the remoteness to the actual accident ruled out prosecution.
3. That the manner of loading of the accident flight resulted in a clear case of negligence on the part of the operator and Mr. Declan McEneany, in his personal capacity, in respect of each passenger.
4. That Miles van der Molen, in his personal capacity and as CEO of Flightline Charter Services C.C. was negligent in relation to the death of the 9 passengers and the pilot for having erroneously altering the pilot’s Operating Handbook.
The CAA will study the findings and recommendations of this inquest and identify which steps we need to take to enhance aviation safety in South Africa.
Notwithstanding the tragic events on the 6th of December 1999, air transport remains the safest mode of travel.
The CAA has taken a number of steps in the wake of this accident, including the implementation of the accident report’s safety recommendations, to ensure continuing improvement in the level of safety in our aviation industry.
In some cases, the CAA does encounter operators who refuse to comply with the minimum safety requirements and ultimately have to take action to deprive them of their licence to operate, as was done with Flightline Charters in 2000.
The CAA will continue to work with industry to enhance our aviation safety standards but will also take decisive action to close operators who refuse to comply with aviation safety regulations.
And once again in fairness, hasn't Miles been reponsible for a few deaths in SA because of disputeable maintenance/procedures etc?
As far as I can remember there is a smoking crater at the end of Rand airports rwy and on on the threshold at FAJS which he put there aparently due to overloading/timex engines etc.
If you read the judgement handed down by Judge PJ du Plessis you'll find tha the doggy has a point:
This is taken from the CAA statement of ZS-OJY the Cheiftan that crashed at Rand:
Mr. P. J. Du Plessis, the Magistrate presiding over the Judicial Inquest into the deaths caused by the fatal aircraft accident near Rand Airport on 6 December 1999, in which 10 lives were lost, released his findings and recommendations yesterday. The Judicial Inquest was conducted over sixteen days during April 2002.
The CAA welcomed and cooperated fully with the inquest proceedings and hoped that this process would assist in closing this tragic event, particularly for the families of the victims of the crash.
The crashed aircraft operated by Flightline Charters had taken off from Rand Airport on a commercial charter flight to Orangemund in Namibia, when shortly after taking off, the pilot reported an emergency to the control tower and requested clearance to return to the airport to land. The aircraft crashed about two minutes after take off and everybody on board lost their lives.
The investigation into the accident, conducted by the CAA, revealed that the probable cause of the accident was the failure of a critical exhaust pipe segment, which in turn caused the right-hand engine to lose power/fail. It is was also found that the aircraft exceeded it's designed load limit.
This overloaded condition of the aircraft was thus a highly significant contributory factor to the accident. The company’s lack of flight operations management experience, professional flight standards supervision and an operational safety management program were regarded as significant contributing factors.
The anomalies noted in regulatory oversight of the operator (airworthiness and flight operations surveillance by the former Chief Directorate:CAA in the Department of Transport and CAA are regarded as possible contributing factors.
According to the Commissioner for Civil Aviation, Mr. Trevor Abrahams "this was a landmark accident investigation for the Civil Aviation Authority as it represents a whole new approach to investigating accidents through a detailed investigation not only of the immediate circumstances and conditions surrounding the accident, but also a close look at the chain of actions and inactions by all connected parties that could be identified as possibly contributing to the tragic event.
A total of 17 safety recommendations arose out of the investigation. Fifteen of these were directed at the Civil Aviation Authority for implementation. The other two were each directed at the pilot community and at commercial charter operators.
Inquest findings highlighted the following aspects surrounding the accident.
The aircraft sustained a power loss in the right hand engine shortly after take off and that the pilot flew the aircraft in accordance with the pilot’s operating handbook.
The aircraft was certified to fly on one engine but that the overweight condition resulted in the subsequent crash.
The magistrate also found that the accident investigation conducted by the CAA was extensive and that the overweight of the aircraft was substantially under reported in the accident report and that the actual weight of the aircraft was substantially more than the certified maximum take off weight limit of the aircraft.
The magistrate also found that the operator’s practices in loading the aircraft was at variance with the approved operators manual of Flight Line Charter Services in that the baggage was not weighed nor was the required weight and balance calculated for the accident flight.
The magistrate emphasized that once the CAA approved an Operations Manual, the operators had a responsibility to ensure compliance with that approved Operations Manual.
The operator was found to have deviated significantly from the CAA approved Operators Manual in terms of the critical issue of weight and balance of their aircraft. Specifically, the accident flight was loaded to capacity and the General Manager should have ensured proper weighing of the cargo and passengers on the 6th of December 1999.
The magistrate also found that the CEO of Flightline Charter Services C.C. had erroneously amended the Pilots Operating Handbook, thereby giving the pilot an incorrect basis for calculating the maximum take off mass of the aircraft.
The magistrate’s recommendations included:
1. That the CAA consider disciplinary steps against officers who accepted the patently incorrect information submitted on the test flight report submitted to the CAA. The magistrate also ruled that the remoteness of this action ruled out any prosecution involving the CAA.
2. That the maintenance organization (AMO), PLACO’s failure to notify the CAA when the Mandatory Periodic Inspections were late or over flown, was a serious indictment of the AMO. The magistrate also found PLACO’s conduct as the seller and registration AMO as warranting severe criticism but that the remoteness to the actual accident ruled out prosecution.
3. That the manner of loading of the accident flight resulted in a clear case of negligence on the part of the operator and Mr. Declan McEneany, in his personal capacity, in respect of each passenger.
4. That Miles van der Molen, in his personal capacity and as CEO of Flightline Charter Services C.C. was negligent in relation to the death of the 9 passengers and the pilot for having erroneously altering the pilot’s Operating Handbook.
The CAA will study the findings and recommendations of this inquest and identify which steps we need to take to enhance aviation safety in South Africa.
Notwithstanding the tragic events on the 6th of December 1999, air transport remains the safest mode of travel.
The CAA has taken a number of steps in the wake of this accident, including the implementation of the accident report’s safety recommendations, to ensure continuing improvement in the level of safety in our aviation industry.
In some cases, the CAA does encounter operators who refuse to comply with the minimum safety requirements and ultimately have to take action to deprive them of their licence to operate, as was done with Flightline Charters in 2000.
The CAA will continue to work with industry to enhance our aviation safety standards but will also take decisive action to close operators who refuse to comply with aviation safety regulations.
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Reply on Jester's comment
"I am not sure if you are from an English speaking prt of this planet" - I guess you arent either and I quote "Maybe **** training , bad IF renewal , to use to good Nam weather , to use to flying to Eros with low fuel to safe the Babe Watch guys a minute on the climb etc etc ."
I think what you were trying to say is "too used"
I mean come on, they landed safely and everyone is ok. Maybe they screwed up, we all do sometime - its how you fix it that counts!
Calling me a laaitie? I take that as a compliment!
"I am not sure if you are from an English speaking prt of this planet" - I guess you arent either and I quote "Maybe **** training , bad IF renewal , to use to good Nam weather , to use to flying to Eros with low fuel to safe the Babe Watch guys a minute on the climb etc etc ."
I think what you were trying to say is "too used"
I mean come on, they landed safely and everyone is ok. Maybe they screwed up, we all do sometime - its how you fix it that counts!
Calling me a laaitie? I take that as a compliment!
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Mo
Firstly I would like to comment on your impressive ability to cut and paste. Considering the self opinionated super hero you are, one might be forgiven for thinking that the bulk of the idiocy comes from you, but apparently not. Was tempted to touch on your checkered past but decided it wouldn't take the matter forward.
Just a thought:
ZS-OIG was the aircraft at Jhb Int
The aircraft was owned by Ken Heuer of Transafrican Aviation, maintained by the late Cornie Grobler.
GJ Air was the operator. GJ Air was at the time being run by Stuart Ross (now sequestrated) and Glenn Taylor. Glenn is a well known aviation personality that culled the Metro population, and a few other aircraft.
What exactly was his involvement?
Why don't you cut and paste us another fine read.
Firstly I would like to comment on your impressive ability to cut and paste. Considering the self opinionated super hero you are, one might be forgiven for thinking that the bulk of the idiocy comes from you, but apparently not. Was tempted to touch on your checkered past but decided it wouldn't take the matter forward.
Just a thought:
ZS-OIG was the aircraft at Jhb Int
The aircraft was owned by Ken Heuer of Transafrican Aviation, maintained by the late Cornie Grobler.
GJ Air was the operator. GJ Air was at the time being run by Stuart Ross (now sequestrated) and Glenn Taylor. Glenn is a well known aviation personality that culled the Metro population, and a few other aircraft.
What exactly was his involvement?
Why don't you cut and paste us another fine read.
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Now I know why you have the name whiner...
Of course I cut and pasted that report, how else would I get it on the web? I didn't write it, CAA did. Muppet.
I was just using FACT to illustrate the man/dog has a point. Nothing beyond that.
You seem very quick to jump up and defend those who have been proven by a magistrate to be as crooked as a hillbilly's smile. I'm not sure what chequered past you are refering to but please feel free to pm me with any information you may have.
Anyways, I think this has gone far enough. The whole point the puppy made was that M vd M was in someway involved in the aerie concerned and that HE is a dubious character, not Cemair. Read the posts. The facts support that. Not once has anyone said Cemair is to blame/has something to hide.
As a learned colleague of mine once said, arguing on the internet is like getting a gold medal at the special olympics, even if you win you're still retarded...
Of course I cut and pasted that report, how else would I get it on the web? I didn't write it, CAA did. Muppet.
I was just using FACT to illustrate the man/dog has a point. Nothing beyond that.
You seem very quick to jump up and defend those who have been proven by a magistrate to be as crooked as a hillbilly's smile. I'm not sure what chequered past you are refering to but please feel free to pm me with any information you may have.
Anyways, I think this has gone far enough. The whole point the puppy made was that M vd M was in someway involved in the aerie concerned and that HE is a dubious character, not Cemair. Read the posts. The facts support that. Not once has anyone said Cemair is to blame/has something to hide.
As a learned colleague of mine once said, arguing on the internet is like getting a gold medal at the special olympics, even if you win you're still retarded...
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Aviation Experts
Just some points to ponder :
1. Legal weather information is to obtain a forecast from a weather station - phone Windhoeks met office and they will read you the TAF for WHK International for Eros. That gives you exactly NIL information for Eros as Eros' weather can be very different from WHK internationals. If you query the met officer on duty expect to hear : " are you trying to tell me how to do my job ?" ( BUT legally you have obtained a valid forecast !!!
)
To phone your buddy on the ground may be more accurate but not legal...
2. The ILS app at FYWH is outdated, the localizer beam is notoriously narrow, the published final app track has not been compensated for variation in 8 years and is at least 2 deg off - in itself not hectic but couple that to a narrow loc beam, the outer marker has been stolen, and the missed app ends in the app pattern which makes the app very time consuming....
3. Namibia's ATC has been blacklisted for 5 years now and all the good ones have disappeared beyond Namibia's bordes,apparently distances of aircraft to the WHV were requested while said aircraft were in the hold...
Elize is a very good pilot and did a great job landing the 1900 where she did.It is easy to sit in an airconditioned office and point fingers
By the way - Air Namibia passed the IOSA audit - and may not be allowed into European airspace as their controlling Agency - DCA Namibia failed their ICAO audit, not because of any shortcoming on Air Namibias side. If u ( Jester) want to attack somebody at least have some facts straight - I know lies make for a more interesting story but only lies also become boring
Always thought the point of an investigation was to prevent this from happening in future - not to crucify somebody.
1. Legal weather information is to obtain a forecast from a weather station - phone Windhoeks met office and they will read you the TAF for WHK International for Eros. That gives you exactly NIL information for Eros as Eros' weather can be very different from WHK internationals. If you query the met officer on duty expect to hear : " are you trying to tell me how to do my job ?" ( BUT legally you have obtained a valid forecast !!!
)To phone your buddy on the ground may be more accurate but not legal...
2. The ILS app at FYWH is outdated, the localizer beam is notoriously narrow, the published final app track has not been compensated for variation in 8 years and is at least 2 deg off - in itself not hectic but couple that to a narrow loc beam, the outer marker has been stolen, and the missed app ends in the app pattern which makes the app very time consuming....
3. Namibia's ATC has been blacklisted for 5 years now and all the good ones have disappeared beyond Namibia's bordes,apparently distances of aircraft to the WHV were requested while said aircraft were in the hold...
Elize is a very good pilot and did a great job landing the 1900 where she did.It is easy to sit in an airconditioned office and point fingers
By the way - Air Namibia passed the IOSA audit - and may not be allowed into European airspace as their controlling Agency - DCA Namibia failed their ICAO audit, not because of any shortcoming on Air Namibias side. If u ( Jester) want to attack somebody at least have some facts straight - I know lies make for a more interesting story but only lies also become boring
Always thought the point of an investigation was to prevent this from happening in future - not to crucify somebody.
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I'm just glad nobody got killed or hurt - so damn lucky !! It shows me how crucial it is to have a plan B and a plan C - landing on the d
n road is definately plan 0 if it could have been prevented by carrying more fuel. This is a 1900 and not a 210....
n road is definately plan 0 if it could have been prevented by carrying more fuel. This is a 1900 and not a 210....
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Air Nam takes 1700 lbs of fuel on that route. Same route same aircraft type. She take 1000lbs on that route. So I agree with with DOG.
PS. The ILS approach plates were modified and check in 2006. I guess Joshua Express has an outdated approach plate. Just a matter of interest. If you 15 miles out at 10 000 feet, there is no ways you can intercept the glide slope. One is supposed to intercept the ILS at 9.3 DME at 7400 feet. So it was not an ILS problem, but an error of judegment by ATC.
PS. The ILS approach plates were modified and check in 2006. I guess Joshua Express has an outdated approach plate. Just a matter of interest. If you 15 miles out at 10 000 feet, there is no ways you can intercept the glide slope. One is supposed to intercept the ILS at 9.3 DME at 7400 feet. So it was not an ILS problem, but an error of judegment by ATC.
