Salaries
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Join Date: May 2007
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Salaries
Just a question, is it wrong to expect a salary of +-R20000 a month with 5 years experience with turbine ratings and some ATP subjects flying in SA(being at home)? I mean a waitress earns R10000 - R15000 at Villa Mora after tax, She didn't invest a 1/4 of a mil in training. It's a sad day but I've decided to put down my headsets at the end of the month, have to give the company 30 days notice, I'll still try and do the right thing. Oooh and I've had interviews with Airlines and been excepted, just can't live on the Salaries they offer.It's prob time too cut my losses and move on. Anybody have any seggestions?
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This is quite amazing. Two individuals and two completely opposites.
I see you are 27.
After obtaining my CPL in 1995, i found it extremely difficult to find a flying job. 200hr Comm at a time that the Rand was fading as fast as the old regime, and aeroplanes being sold faster than KFC Streetwise two's...it wasnt working out at all for me.
So, i went into property development where i worked and got quite successful over time. Even getting to the point of considdering buying an aeroplane.
To the point:
When i turned 29, i had to have a bit of a sit-down with myself. I wasnt happy, all i ever wished for was to be flying...so i quite what i was doing...cashed in my investments and got back into flying. I knew full well that i would not be able to even remotely match my previous income and that i would have to go back to the bottom of the ladder (even though i have accumulated more management experience than anyone could have done flying aeroplanes up to that age) and be something like a co-pilot on a Caravan.
I did it, and i wont look back. It was the best investment that i could have ever made. Yes i wont be living the way that i was for a very long time...maybe never...but i love doing what i do. I can get up in the morning and be content. I know i am working towards something like SAX where i can fly great aeroplanes and make enough to live happily. Not extravagantly...but enough.
Maybe if i got my break earlier i would have been where you are too right now.
It really saddens me that what you are saying is absolutely correct though (although i have my doubts about waitresses earning THAT much consistantly), i really wish you all the best with your decision and that you'd be happy with it. Thats all that matters.
I see you are 27.
After obtaining my CPL in 1995, i found it extremely difficult to find a flying job. 200hr Comm at a time that the Rand was fading as fast as the old regime, and aeroplanes being sold faster than KFC Streetwise two's...it wasnt working out at all for me.
So, i went into property development where i worked and got quite successful over time. Even getting to the point of considdering buying an aeroplane.
To the point:
When i turned 29, i had to have a bit of a sit-down with myself. I wasnt happy, all i ever wished for was to be flying...so i quite what i was doing...cashed in my investments and got back into flying. I knew full well that i would not be able to even remotely match my previous income and that i would have to go back to the bottom of the ladder (even though i have accumulated more management experience than anyone could have done flying aeroplanes up to that age) and be something like a co-pilot on a Caravan.
I did it, and i wont look back. It was the best investment that i could have ever made. Yes i wont be living the way that i was for a very long time...maybe never...but i love doing what i do. I can get up in the morning and be content. I know i am working towards something like SAX where i can fly great aeroplanes and make enough to live happily. Not extravagantly...but enough.
Maybe if i got my break earlier i would have been where you are too right now.
It really saddens me that what you are saying is absolutely correct though (although i have my doubts about waitresses earning THAT much consistantly), i really wish you all the best with your decision and that you'd be happy with it. Thats all that matters.
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Well, I suppose you could expect pay like that from an operator like SAX or SAA (anyone from those companies please feel free to correct me). I dont think you will get that from One Time or Nationwide. Do you have all your subjects and if you do, do you still need hours to acquire the license? If you dont, maybe thats the problem.
On the other hand, if you have a family, you will have to decide what is in their best interests. Only you know your financial status. If you dont have a ball and chain just yet and its only you who would like more moolah, I would say reconsider your situation.
As a last remark, dont compare your situation to those around you. Remember that a hooker also pulls in that sort of money!
Hope this helps. Good luck!
On the other hand, if you have a family, you will have to decide what is in their best interests. Only you know your financial status. If you dont have a ball and chain just yet and its only you who would like more moolah, I would say reconsider your situation.
As a last remark, dont compare your situation to those around you. Remember that a hooker also pulls in that sort of money!
Hope this helps. Good luck!
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I was 35 when I got my first airline job. It is worth the wait and sacrifice.
I worked as an electronic engineer (also ending up in management) and all I can say is that when today's flying is done and tomorrow's hasn't started yet, you can have a beer and relax. There are not many other jobs where you can say the same. I can't remember one night while I was working as an engineer, where there wasn't some problem that had to be solved first thing the next day that preyed on my mind.
In the end though, it is your decision whether you want to stay in flying.
You don't mention your time, ratings and other experience. Years in aviation does not count. I flew 40 hours between 1991 (when I got my comm) and 1996.
I worked as an electronic engineer (also ending up in management) and all I can say is that when today's flying is done and tomorrow's hasn't started yet, you can have a beer and relax. There are not many other jobs where you can say the same. I can't remember one night while I was working as an engineer, where there wasn't some problem that had to be solved first thing the next day that preyed on my mind.
In the end though, it is your decision whether you want to stay in flying.
You don't mention your time, ratings and other experience. Years in aviation does not count. I flew 40 hours between 1991 (when I got my comm) and 1996.
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VW
Same as the rest I guess, depends at what age you started and if you have a family or not.
I started flying choppers in '91 (R385 per hour) only got my com in 2004 (R2200 per hour) I'm 35, married with 2 kids. Can't live off the chopper salaries they offer but love flying. Sacrificed a few years flying getting some hours and went back to working in IT for myself. Fly freelance now and hoping to start instruction soon.
The investment never pays off (especially chopper) but was it worth it to do my licence..... H
ll yeah. If i started at the ripe age of 21 as a com pilot it would be a different story.
My advice to you is to fly for passion but have some thing on the side to pay the bills.
Good luck.
MM
I started flying choppers in '91 (R385 per hour) only got my com in 2004 (R2200 per hour) I'm 35, married with 2 kids. Can't live off the chopper salaries they offer but love flying. Sacrificed a few years flying getting some hours and went back to working in IT for myself. Fly freelance now and hoping to start instruction soon.
The investment never pays off (especially chopper) but was it worth it to do my licence..... H
ll yeah. If i started at the ripe age of 21 as a com pilot it would be a different story. My advice to you is to fly for passion but have some thing on the side to pay the bills.
Good luck.
MM
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It can pay off - eventually - if you persist. Someone once said "luck is when preparation meets with opportunity" and with that in mind, you need luck too.
I also spent about R250,000 getting my comm (chopper). First job after getting that expensive pice of paper was on a chicken farm, earning R150 per day. Did that for about 2 months until I got an aviation job which paid slightly less. Lived on pasta and tuna fish for about a year and wouldn't have been able to afford even that without my girlfriend's income (funnily enough she was a waitress). Got my instructor's ticket and suddenly doubled my income & trebled my flying.
After 3 years of flying I calculated I had finally earned (before tax) my R300,000 back (the extra 50,000 or so was spent getting my instructors). Now I earn about R20,000 a month. Of course that's still slightly less than I was earning 10 years ago but ask me if I give a ****....
I also spent about R250,000 getting my comm (chopper). First job after getting that expensive pice of paper was on a chicken farm, earning R150 per day. Did that for about 2 months until I got an aviation job which paid slightly less. Lived on pasta and tuna fish for about a year and wouldn't have been able to afford even that without my girlfriend's income (funnily enough she was a waitress). Got my instructor's ticket and suddenly doubled my income & trebled my flying.
After 3 years of flying I calculated I had finally earned (before tax) my R300,000 back (the extra 50,000 or so was spent getting my instructors). Now I earn about R20,000 a month. Of course that's still slightly less than I was earning 10 years ago but ask me if I give a ****....
Fun don't feed the family
Guys (and gals)
Time to catch a wake up here. Last time I went to the bank to pay the mortgage with a bag full of "job satisfaction", well you know the reaction.
There comes a time where we, as a group, must stop justifying how much fun we have flying and start demanding some proper compensation for our skills, investment and abilities. The longer we accept " My job is so much fun" the longer the management types will pay mediocre salaries. AND I apply this to all levels of the game from new CPL to international wide body captain.
This idea of I'll fly for free to build up hours is the worst thing we've done to ourselves ever.
I'm in the contract world and we see this attitude displayed regularly, hence management refuses to adjust salaries and we're all going backwards.
One day we're all going to have to look after ourselves in our old age (+ the dragon lady) and nostalgia is NOT going to pay the bills.
Time to catch a wake up here. Last time I went to the bank to pay the mortgage with a bag full of "job satisfaction", well you know the reaction.
There comes a time where we, as a group, must stop justifying how much fun we have flying and start demanding some proper compensation for our skills, investment and abilities. The longer we accept " My job is so much fun" the longer the management types will pay mediocre salaries. AND I apply this to all levels of the game from new CPL to international wide body captain.
This idea of I'll fly for free to build up hours is the worst thing we've done to ourselves ever.
I'm in the contract world and we see this attitude displayed regularly, hence management refuses to adjust salaries and we're all going backwards.
One day we're all going to have to look after ourselves in our old age (+ the dragon lady) and nostalgia is NOT going to pay the bills.
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You are right man about the salaries , satisfaction does not pay for a loaf of bread. The Sad thing is that we are our worst enemies, just look at the SAA threads about pay. As soon as some one is getting paid international rates for doing this job, we have others that want to pull the rest down to regional levels...and do the job for a loaf of bread.
The papers in Oz the other days had an article about pilots shortages, and they pointed out the due to the high cost of training and the low pay, a lot of people were not opting to become pilots. Here is also an article from Oz about Virgin Blue canceling flights because they do not have enough crews. http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...-27977,00.html
The papers in Oz the other days had an article about pilots shortages, and they pointed out the due to the high cost of training and the low pay, a lot of people were not opting to become pilots. Here is also an article from Oz about Virgin Blue canceling flights because they do not have enough crews. http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...-27977,00.html
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Time to catch a wake up here. Last time I went to the bank to pay the mortgage with a bag full of "job satisfaction", well you know the reaction.
There comes a time where we, as a group, must stop justifying how much fun we have flying and start demanding some proper compensation for our skills, investment and abilities. The longer we accept " My job is so much fun" the longer the management types will pay mediocre salaries. AND I apply this to all levels of the game from new CPL to international wide body captain.
This idea of I'll fly for free to build up hours is the worst thing we've done to ourselves ever.
I'm in the contract world and we see this attitude displayed regularly, hence management refuses to adjust salaries and we're all going backwards.
One day we're all going to have to look after ourselves in our old age (+ the dragon lady) and nostalgia is NOT going to pay the bills.
There comes a time where we, as a group, must stop justifying how much fun we have flying and start demanding some proper compensation for our skills, investment and abilities. The longer we accept " My job is so much fun" the longer the management types will pay mediocre salaries. AND I apply this to all levels of the game from new CPL to international wide body captain.
This idea of I'll fly for free to build up hours is the worst thing we've done to ourselves ever.
I'm in the contract world and we see this attitude displayed regularly, hence management refuses to adjust salaries and we're all going backwards.
One day we're all going to have to look after ourselves in our old age (+ the dragon lady) and nostalgia is NOT going to pay the bills.
Well said. Best posting I have seen for a while. We as professionals in the industry have to stick together and get the salaries the profession deserves. It requires a lot of time money and sacrifices to get into this business. Still have no heard of a doctor or lawyer who works for free because he likes his job.
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Salaries
In line with "don't bring us problems, bring us solutions", (and I realise that this is predominantly a rumour network), I'd like to get feedback on what the contract pilots out there, Solenta or not, consider a market related salary structure, for their respective aircraft type. Solenta operate ATR42, B1900, DHC-6 and C208.
The more data we have, the more accurate the salary reviews. Please provide realistic, accurate information, unless you've seen a payslip, don't go on "i heard pilots at abc earn.... " rumours do not solve problems, facts do.
Also, imagine you were deciding the salaries, what would you pay - ps.. try keep the business in the black ! All well and good dishing out huge salaries, when you cant pay the creditors at the end of the month, that type of business won't survive very long !
I believe, that through open communication, and sensible proposals, we are sure to have a starting point to ensure our pilots are paid a fare wage.
I want to, at least, bridge the gap between what you consider fair, and what is sensible, business-wise.
If you want, call me or mail me, the more info I have to work with, the better.
CP Solenta
The more data we have, the more accurate the salary reviews. Please provide realistic, accurate information, unless you've seen a payslip, don't go on "i heard pilots at abc earn.... " rumours do not solve problems, facts do.
Also, imagine you were deciding the salaries, what would you pay - ps.. try keep the business in the black ! All well and good dishing out huge salaries, when you cant pay the creditors at the end of the month, that type of business won't survive very long !
I believe, that through open communication, and sensible proposals, we are sure to have a starting point to ensure our pilots are paid a fare wage.
I want to, at least, bridge the gap between what you consider fair, and what is sensible, business-wise.
If you want, call me or mail me, the more info I have to work with, the better.
CP Solenta
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Money
Vw driver - having been in hiring/firing in airlines for the last 12 yrs, GET YOUR ATP!!! Also remember you can't compare contract LIFE STYLE with what airline pilots do.
At the moment movement is there. The pilot shortage is not with us. Shake a tree and a 1000hr pilot falls out. What is helping, there is a worldwide shortage of EXPERIENCE. Thats pulling in at the bottom.
Most airlines will start on about R15k and up. Upgrades are quick, 12-18 months. The 4th stripe will take you way over your R20k. I think a yr 1 captain will be over R30k. Which is pretty much industy standard. Up my end of the food chain, money is REALLY good.
Had my best mate from school on the jumpseat, he is a senior mananger at KPMG. Had a long chat about pay scales, go look in the employment section of the paper and see what jobs are paying upwards of R420k/pa.
I echo the sentiment of most ppl here, we have the BEST job in the world. Remember when u unstrap the big metal tube from your backside, you can't take the worries home. If you fly regional/domestic you are prob flying 19 days a month.
I can only speak for Airlink, but my job is is largely 6am till 12 or 12 till 7 pm. Thats a 1/2 day job in most ppls eyes. Most ppl that make 1/2 a bar need to get there at 7 and go home at 6. Did I mention the NOT sitting in traffic?
You don't have to buy suits, you get tea/coffee on demand, sure the food isn't much to write home about
. You get to stay in 4 star hotels with drinking money provided.
The nice thing is, if you keep looking when u get 5000hrs with jet command, PLENTY of $145k/pa jobs out there. Many are TAX FREE.
All people go through a hard patch in their career, stick with it!!!!!
P.S. Can't resist a dig, pilots are NOT our own worst enemies, the SAA threads were about airlines making profits. If you DONT HAVE IT, YOU CANT PAY IT!!!
At the moment movement is there. The pilot shortage is not with us. Shake a tree and a 1000hr pilot falls out. What is helping, there is a worldwide shortage of EXPERIENCE. Thats pulling in at the bottom.
Most airlines will start on about R15k and up. Upgrades are quick, 12-18 months. The 4th stripe will take you way over your R20k. I think a yr 1 captain will be over R30k. Which is pretty much industy standard. Up my end of the food chain, money is REALLY good.
Had my best mate from school on the jumpseat, he is a senior mananger at KPMG. Had a long chat about pay scales, go look in the employment section of the paper and see what jobs are paying upwards of R420k/pa.
I echo the sentiment of most ppl here, we have the BEST job in the world. Remember when u unstrap the big metal tube from your backside, you can't take the worries home. If you fly regional/domestic you are prob flying 19 days a month.
I can only speak for Airlink, but my job is is largely 6am till 12 or 12 till 7 pm. Thats a 1/2 day job in most ppls eyes. Most ppl that make 1/2 a bar need to get there at 7 and go home at 6. Did I mention the NOT sitting in traffic?
You don't have to buy suits, you get tea/coffee on demand, sure the food isn't much to write home about
. You get to stay in 4 star hotels with drinking money provided. The nice thing is, if you keep looking when u get 5000hrs with jet command, PLENTY of $145k/pa jobs out there. Many are TAX FREE.
All people go through a hard patch in their career, stick with it!!!!!
P.S. Can't resist a dig, pilots are NOT our own worst enemies, the SAA threads were about airlines making profits. If you DONT HAVE IT, YOU CANT PAY IT!!!
Last edited by Avi8tor; 7th May 2007 at 06:18.
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toung in cheek!
Ah yes, the age old money debate. I did have a post up a while back about buying experience, kind of ties in with this. You cant tell me we don’t do this for the passion, we all started out with grand ideas and passion in our hearts and had or still have a love for this work or we would not do it. Flying for “passion” is fine, if you go find an aerobatic plane and pay for it by the Hr. Flying for “passion” in a commercial operation where your boss is getting paid a fortune by the client to provide a service simply makes you a target for the bean counters, and why not? You are passionate, you are willing and you don’t care how much they pay you! Perfect for them!!!!! The f up comes in where you have to move out of mommy and daddy’s house or get a girlfriend and no longer want to live in student like digs with 50 guys running round your living room and 1000 empty beer cans on the floor, ie you grow up! Suddenly $1000 a month doesn’t cut it and for the amount of effort and training and renewals and and and and and and that we put into this job, why should it be? Expecting a descent wage, based on what the client pays and sees us as worth, is not unreasonable.
Fortunately, THERE IS A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!! (and I am stealing this idea from a drunken chat with GT in Billy the Bums, thanks mate, great idea)
Brokenkneecaps.com!
What we do is set up a website where we the crew decide what each a/c type is worth to fly in different countries and contracts and we post the salaries on the site. E.g. a Van driver gets $5000 a month
200 driver gets $6000
1900 gets $7000 and so on.
Then, if someone decides to go and fly for “passion” and fly’s a Van for lets say $1000 a month, he gets reported to Brokenkneecaps.com an suffers a penalty visit, this may put 2 or 3 people out of the industry but we will just have to see this collateral damage and move on. It won’t take time and word will spread on sites like this about the newly structured rates for crew and cost to your knees if you work for less. Then, the next time you are sitting in an interview and they offer you a “passionate” pay cheque, because lets face it, companies are passionate about parting with cash, you go and look up on Brokenkneecaps.com what the going rate is, if it is different, you will feel an overwhelming compulsion to turn the job down until they up the pay, because no matter how much you love flying, you don’t want one of the website’s reps to pay you a visit. It wont be long (I give it a week) and no one will be able to find crew and every ZS a/c will be parked for crew’s fear of loosing their knees, then my friends and only then, when the operators realise how much they need us, will we earn what we have worked so hard for, an honest wage!
sorry, put this in the wrong thread earlier.
Fortunately, THERE IS A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!! (and I am stealing this idea from a drunken chat with GT in Billy the Bums, thanks mate, great idea)
Brokenkneecaps.com!
What we do is set up a website where we the crew decide what each a/c type is worth to fly in different countries and contracts and we post the salaries on the site. E.g. a Van driver gets $5000 a month
200 driver gets $6000
1900 gets $7000 and so on.
Then, if someone decides to go and fly for “passion” and fly’s a Van for lets say $1000 a month, he gets reported to Brokenkneecaps.com an suffers a penalty visit, this may put 2 or 3 people out of the industry but we will just have to see this collateral damage and move on. It won’t take time and word will spread on sites like this about the newly structured rates for crew and cost to your knees if you work for less. Then, the next time you are sitting in an interview and they offer you a “passionate” pay cheque, because lets face it, companies are passionate about parting with cash, you go and look up on Brokenkneecaps.com what the going rate is, if it is different, you will feel an overwhelming compulsion to turn the job down until they up the pay, because no matter how much you love flying, you don’t want one of the website’s reps to pay you a visit. It wont be long (I give it a week) and no one will be able to find crew and every ZS a/c will be parked for crew’s fear of loosing their knees, then my friends and only then, when the operators realise how much they need us, will we earn what we have worked so hard for, an honest wage!
sorry, put this in the wrong thread earlier.
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Contract dog...good one, can we franchise that service around the world...brokenkneecaps pty Ltd, it can have a sister company fannyslaps.com for the female crews among us.
that service around the world...brokenkneecaps pty Ltd, it can have a sister company fannyslaps.com for the female crews among us.
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I think a very fair request would be to atleasts omehow link the salaries to the inflation and also keep in mind that living expenses go up many times a year. Salaries don't need to be $ based, u can start off with a fixed salary and get 1 - 2 small increases a year like in most other industries. Also get performance increases. When I satarted flying I earned R19000 per month per month, now I'm earning 10500, doing the same work same, just more experience. Yes the rand weekend, but we still supply the same survice.
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The other end is companies can't expect pilots to stay loyal if they not properly looked after. I've never burnt bridges and not planning too, but a HAPPY CREW IS A SAFE CREW.
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job application, knee cap breaker...
I also posted this in the solenta thread... but i see it belongs here.
I wish to apply for a job at broken knee caps.
CV:
Name: Soprano
Age: not quite past it
Experience: Well, lets just say extensive
References: Sadly most no longer able to communicate if you get my drift.
Of course, if you are a South African Pilot, you could always join the transport and allied workers union. They not only break knee caps they trash cities.
Seriously though, you could also start a website called Transparency.com,
Aviators could band together, and every job offer (or even info from interview if no offer made) could be posted there with name of company, position offered, aircraft type, experience required and most important salary and working conditions and perks offered.
Word would soon get around which companies to avoid and which are worthwhile, the bad guys would quickly have to get with the program or risk losing credibility (and staff) in the industry.
I wish to apply for a job at broken knee caps.
CV:
Name: Soprano
Age: not quite past it
Experience: Well, lets just say extensive
References: Sadly most no longer able to communicate if you get my drift.
Of course, if you are a South African Pilot, you could always join the transport and allied workers union. They not only break knee caps they trash cities.
Seriously though, you could also start a website called Transparency.com,
Aviators could band together, and every job offer (or even info from interview if no offer made) could be posted there with name of company, position offered, aircraft type, experience required and most important salary and working conditions and perks offered.
Word would soon get around which companies to avoid and which are worthwhile, the bad guys would quickly have to get with the program or risk losing credibility (and staff) in the industry.