Salaries
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Solenta, I agree with P4s too. Proper salary stucktures are very important in any growing company. Look after u'r staff and they will stay loyal and go the extra mile for u. Stop making excuses and really look at the problems, where not being unreasonable, Salaries will cause unhappy crews and force the guys to leave or even stop people from getting their comm's, at the end of the day u'll be paying more for the pilots u can get than if u just structured the salaries better. Also I've never heard or seen pilots sharing in the fruits like Solenta mentioned but I hope I'm wrong.
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Plane4sale
My point was merely that while contract operators have been allowed to treat contract pilots like temporary employees they will continue to do so.
If you were the manager and had a plan which viewed the pilots as temporary, and cyclic, would you increase their salary?
Your arguement about being there for than 3 years and thinking you should command more money, I would agree, but I think they are really hoping you would move on by that time so that they dont have to pay you that extra money you probably now deserve.
My point was merely that while contract operators have been allowed to treat contract pilots like temporary employees they will continue to do so.
If you were the manager and had a plan which viewed the pilots as temporary, and cyclic, would you increase their salary?
Your arguement about being there for than 3 years and thinking you should command more money, I would agree, but I think they are really hoping you would move on by that time so that they dont have to pay you that extra money you probably now deserve.
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On the question of training bonds it's fairly common in aviation and anyway, you can hardly expect a company to fund your rating and have you leave a week later.
Solenta you say contracts are not a career but just an hour builder. If you mean that it's a job people don't do forever true but, it's not the delta in a 206 either. Deep sea diving is a short career too but the guys expect to make decent money. When guys are working in places such as Iraq then I really do feel pay should justify risk. I don't know what Solenta pays so I'm not having a dig at you personally.
In general, and it's just my opinion: It's all market driven anyway. If a company can pay $5 for a service then why would they pay $10? I hear there's a shortage of B1900 drivers so, I would assume the respective companies will have to offer more to compete for the limited pool of drivers, right? On the other hand 500 hour co-jo's are still two a penny and therefore paid accordingly. Life's a bitch and then you die.
Solenta you say contracts are not a career but just an hour builder. If you mean that it's a job people don't do forever true but, it's not the delta in a 206 either. Deep sea diving is a short career too but the guys expect to make decent money. When guys are working in places such as Iraq then I really do feel pay should justify risk. I don't know what Solenta pays so I'm not having a dig at you personally.
In general, and it's just my opinion: It's all market driven anyway. If a company can pay $5 for a service then why would they pay $10? I hear there's a shortage of B1900 drivers so, I would assume the respective companies will have to offer more to compete for the limited pool of drivers, right? On the other hand 500 hour co-jo's are still two a penny and therefore paid accordingly. Life's a bitch and then you die.
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Plane4...
Of course I agree you should all be paid fairly, there should be an open and clear pay structure, and people treated properly.
But, the people who own the operators, ie. the directors and owners of the planes (who are payed over the going rate for the plane) and funnily enough, the directors and plane owners are normally one and the same poeple, dont care about the pilots.
Why, because they know there is no solidarity between the crews, hence as you said earlier, people negotiate their own deals.
You can call for all the constructive debate you like about the matter, the bottom line is, the people making the money in these companies are not prepared to take a reduction in profit just to make sure you stay for 5 years.
Every year there are people ready to fill the spaces. Why do they need to pay for 3000 hours experience $7000, when the contract requirements states 1500/2000 hours(whatever it is) and they can pay that person $5000?
Of course I agree you should all be paid fairly, there should be an open and clear pay structure, and people treated properly.
But, the people who own the operators, ie. the directors and owners of the planes (who are payed over the going rate for the plane) and funnily enough, the directors and plane owners are normally one and the same poeple, dont care about the pilots.
Why, because they know there is no solidarity between the crews, hence as you said earlier, people negotiate their own deals.
You can call for all the constructive debate you like about the matter, the bottom line is, the people making the money in these companies are not prepared to take a reduction in profit just to make sure you stay for 5 years.
Every year there are people ready to fill the spaces. Why do they need to pay for 3000 hours experience $7000, when the contract requirements states 1500/2000 hours(whatever it is) and they can pay that person $5000?
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clear as mud
GatengPilot, Oompilot, VW
When I divide a contract pilot's salary by 8, rather than 12, I was referring to "productivity", not salary - this is an accounting term you may not be familiar with. In other words, the amount of money earned over a period of a year, for the amount of months "worked" - the time that you are productive in earning revenue for a company. Remember , we have to pay pilots for a 12 month job, so when you're home, someone else is getting paid to be productive in your place.
btw - the taxman has no say in how much time you have off, and its got nothing to do with being at home for 4 months. You need to be away for more than 183 days, 60 of which are consecutive, but I'm no tax specialist, so don't quote me.
quote.."OK then Solenta, do you agree that being away 8 months of the year (usually in hostile environments and away from loved ones) needs to be properly compensated for"....
this is a job you chose, no-one is forcing you to do it, that by no way implies we don't care, or you're not important, but if you don't want to fly contracts, get a flying job where you don't have to go away, then you won't have this problem.
I was merely trying to show that you cannot compare apples with oranges, which us pilots are very good ( but actually very bad ) at !
I am in no way making excuses, rather trying to get, and give, a balanced view on the topic. We are reviewing salaries, and we've gained some valuable insight from this forum, its another way of getting info, we of course conduct a professional survey, and don't base a salary review on a rumour network ! But I am trying to get the pulse and feelings of the guys out there, I'll take the knocks, no problem, and continue to try to make things better for our pilots.
As I said, we have over 130 pilots and we still get many CV's a day from quality, experienced pilots, so we must be doing some things right, but we're aways open to get ( and give ) constructive criticism.
Keep it coming...
CP Solenta
When I divide a contract pilot's salary by 8, rather than 12, I was referring to "productivity", not salary - this is an accounting term you may not be familiar with. In other words, the amount of money earned over a period of a year, for the amount of months "worked" - the time that you are productive in earning revenue for a company. Remember , we have to pay pilots for a 12 month job, so when you're home, someone else is getting paid to be productive in your place.
btw - the taxman has no say in how much time you have off, and its got nothing to do with being at home for 4 months. You need to be away for more than 183 days, 60 of which are consecutive, but I'm no tax specialist, so don't quote me.
quote.."OK then Solenta, do you agree that being away 8 months of the year (usually in hostile environments and away from loved ones) needs to be properly compensated for"....
this is a job you chose, no-one is forcing you to do it, that by no way implies we don't care, or you're not important, but if you don't want to fly contracts, get a flying job where you don't have to go away, then you won't have this problem.
I was merely trying to show that you cannot compare apples with oranges, which us pilots are very good ( but actually very bad ) at !
I am in no way making excuses, rather trying to get, and give, a balanced view on the topic. We are reviewing salaries, and we've gained some valuable insight from this forum, its another way of getting info, we of course conduct a professional survey, and don't base a salary review on a rumour network ! But I am trying to get the pulse and feelings of the guys out there, I'll take the knocks, no problem, and continue to try to make things better for our pilots.
As I said, we have over 130 pilots and we still get many CV's a day from quality, experienced pilots, so we must be doing some things right, but we're aways open to get ( and give ) constructive criticism.
Keep it coming...
CP Solenta
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CP Solenta
Thanks for the pm. Question is. Do those quality, experienced pilots
accept your offer and stay with your company? If so then your
problem is solved.
This will sadly mean that we are just a bunch of whining overpaid
pilots thats getting more than we deserve from current employers.
I really hope not 
Thanks for the pm. Question is. Do those quality, experienced pilots
accept your offer and stay with your company? If so then your
problem is solved.
This will sadly mean that we are just a bunch of whining overpaid
pilots thats getting more than we deserve from current employers.
I really hope not
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CP Solenta,
Your maths omits the productivity of office personnel who only work Monday to Friday, so 52 X 2 = 104 days out of 365 that they are not productive and still they get 24 odd days per year annual leave + public holidays. On contract we worked 7 days per week depending on our geographical location.
I do not agree with training bonds, but think a working bond should be looked at. The company I work for pays for your type rating, done at FSI, and all costs involved as well as your salary during training. You then have a contracted amount that you have to work off, over a two year period. Nothing is deducted from your salary and you earn the same a previously type rated pilots. If you choose to leave before the remainder of your two years, you are aware of the buy-out costs as you have the break down month by month in your contract. It is done fairly and everybody goes into it with open eyes. I was already typed when I joined the company so do not have this bond, but it offers pilots who have financial commitments and cannot afford to pay for a rating or live on a reduced salary, the option to get a secure job.
Should the company not be able to provide further employment for the pilot, he walks away with a rating, a little security. Should the pilot leave or cause himself to be dismissed, he owes the remainder of the costs. Companies should not be trying to make a profit from their own crews type ratings, nor should they be trying to bond crews for 5 years. They should be using this as a way to get productive pilots into there system who they know will be there for at least two years. At the end of the contract the pilot might decide to sign for a bigger type or might decide it is time to move on, everybody wins.
Your maths omits the productivity of office personnel who only work Monday to Friday, so 52 X 2 = 104 days out of 365 that they are not productive and still they get 24 odd days per year annual leave + public holidays. On contract we worked 7 days per week depending on our geographical location.
I do not agree with training bonds, but think a working bond should be looked at. The company I work for pays for your type rating, done at FSI, and all costs involved as well as your salary during training. You then have a contracted amount that you have to work off, over a two year period. Nothing is deducted from your salary and you earn the same a previously type rated pilots. If you choose to leave before the remainder of your two years, you are aware of the buy-out costs as you have the break down month by month in your contract. It is done fairly and everybody goes into it with open eyes. I was already typed when I joined the company so do not have this bond, but it offers pilots who have financial commitments and cannot afford to pay for a rating or live on a reduced salary, the option to get a secure job.
Should the company not be able to provide further employment for the pilot, he walks away with a rating, a little security. Should the pilot leave or cause himself to be dismissed, he owes the remainder of the costs. Companies should not be trying to make a profit from their own crews type ratings, nor should they be trying to bond crews for 5 years. They should be using this as a way to get productive pilots into there system who they know will be there for at least two years. At the end of the contract the pilot might decide to sign for a bigger type or might decide it is time to move on, everybody wins.
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"brokenkneecaps.com"
We didn't think this one through did we. Just got the visit from
the rep. Apparently they struck a new deal with the companies
and i was informed to gladly accept the "passionate" offer from them
or you know what
Looks like they are getting a one month payment of the difference
between what i demanded and what they are offering. So much
for that then
the rep.
Apparently they struck a new deal with the companiesand i was informed to gladly accept the "passionate" offer from them
or you know what
Looks like they are getting a one month payment of the difference
between what i demanded and what they are offering. So much
for that then
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On contract we worked 7 days per week
I don't want to be pedantic, but with less than 3000hrs, most of you have only been flying for a few years. If you want to compare yourself with other professionals (Lawyers, doctors, engineers who only reach the R300k bracket after a few years work experience), you have to be realistic. They have spent at least 4 years at 'varsity and then started on crappy salaries until they became valuable to their companies. Until their earning potential goes up, they do what inexperienced professionals in all walks of life do - keep their expenses within their disposable capability. It is not really realistic to fight for a salary that meets your idea of lifestyle.
Pilot salaries are mostly market driven (let's leave the national carrier out of the equation - they reckon that they compete in an entirely different market and perhaps they are justified). I think that the guys prepared to work for lowish salaries perhaps see the bigger picture - and you want their legs broken?
I also see in this thread that Solenta employs about 130 pilots. Maybe it is time to get an ALPA branch going, so that you can at least speak with one voice.
Finally for plane4sale: I give you credit for getting some sort of scheme going, but your numbers are optimistic. A 1900 co-jo with 1000 hrs is NOT an experienced pilot and should not be earning R241 500 after tax. This is about R400k before tax, and this for someone who has probably been flying for less than 2 years - and most of it in the right seat?
I am all for pilots being paid as professionals for a professional service, but having been an electronic engineer in another life, I have a slightly different viewpoint about the effort/knowledge vs reward equation.
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However hard it is for me to do being in the same boat... i'd have to agree with Nugs on this one.
If i wanted the coupe and the seafront stand... i should have stayed in property.
I do however think that one should have been on contract, seen what it does to your relationships, optimism and outlook on life before you would really understand. I too have felt that the money (especially when a co) i got, does not compensate me for being a professional pilot, but is merely covering the " just being here" feeling.
If i wanted the coupe and the seafront stand... i should have stayed in property.
I do however think that one should have been on contract, seen what it does to your relationships, optimism and outlook on life before you would really understand. I too have felt that the money (especially when a co) i got, does not compensate me for being a professional pilot, but is merely covering the " just being here" feeling.
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Having NOT have done B-com accounts i am no expert... but is INCOME not calculated using 12 months, and not necisarily salary?
I think you would find that this is how SARS look at it.
I think you would find that this is how SARS look at it.
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moving forward
salary, agree, divided by 12 months, but I was referring to productivity ( looking at it from the company's side of things ) what does a pilot cost the company over 12 months, for his 8-months-worth of revenue earning work, hope we can put this to bed now, as its not really the issue, I was just trying to get pilots to look at it from the other side of the table for a change, but our main aim is to ensure that pilots are remunerated fairly.
As for ALPA, I actually sent out the application forms to all Solenta pilots about a month ago encouraging them to join, not so they can go on strike, as thats not really the point of a union, ( unless you're a coal miner in 1970's UK ) rather to have a unified body and the protection afforded by an association, with regards loss of license, legal protection in case of an accident ( a Captain is legally liable in an accident, and can end up in jail, there are a few cases presently ). ALPA membership is a good thing, its no "brokenkneecaps.com" ( which is an "interesting" concept, not one I'd subscribe to myself, but it takes all types to make the world go around )
But thanks to all for the insight, this will be my last post on this subject, now we go forward, and review the salaries.
CP Solenta
As for ALPA, I actually sent out the application forms to all Solenta pilots about a month ago encouraging them to join, not so they can go on strike, as thats not really the point of a union, ( unless you're a coal miner in 1970's UK ) rather to have a unified body and the protection afforded by an association, with regards loss of license, legal protection in case of an accident ( a Captain is legally liable in an accident, and can end up in jail, there are a few cases presently ). ALPA membership is a good thing, its no "brokenkneecaps.com" ( which is an "interesting" concept, not one I'd subscribe to myself, but it takes all types to make the world go around )
But thanks to all for the insight, this will be my last post on this subject, now we go forward, and review the salaries.
CP Solenta
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Good positions
Hi Everybody
Having read this posting with some interest.I am a contract Pilot(30 on 30 off)There are few countries in the world that one can live in and enjoy what SARS has to offer us guys.Believe me I have lived and worked in a number of countries.
I startered like many of us from the bottom,scatching to make a living.Making every flying hr that you get count.My parents had no money so it was if you want it,you go out there and work for it.
To make contract flying work for you,one must be prepared for a roller coaster life style.When at work one is in control but when home family commitments are what counts and there is never enough time to fix all the problems before going back to work.
I left a big airline to come and do this as I wanted to live in SA.I fly a BBJ(fantastic plane).Money this is what drives many of us, the more money one earns the bigger the probs.Thus one must find that equal balance.
My Salary is US$14 000 a month.You do the math at 7 to 1 its a lot of money and I have never lost touch with when i first started how I struggled.If I can find this job many other people can and these positions do exist and from time to time people ask me if I know of someone they can hire and all these guys pay this kind of money.
So hang in there and keep applying
Having read this posting with some interest.I am a contract Pilot(30 on 30 off)There are few countries in the world that one can live in and enjoy what SARS has to offer us guys.Believe me I have lived and worked in a number of countries.
I startered like many of us from the bottom,scatching to make a living.Making every flying hr that you get count.My parents had no money so it was if you want it,you go out there and work for it.
To make contract flying work for you,one must be prepared for a roller coaster life style.When at work one is in control but when home family commitments are what counts and there is never enough time to fix all the problems before going back to work.
I left a big airline to come and do this as I wanted to live in SA.I fly a BBJ(fantastic plane).Money this is what drives many of us, the more money one earns the bigger the probs.Thus one must find that equal balance.
My Salary is US$14 000 a month.You do the math at 7 to 1 its a lot of money and I have never lost touch with when i first started how I struggled.If I can find this job many other people can and these positions do exist and from time to time people ask me if I know of someone they can hire and all these guys pay this kind of money.
So hang in there and keep applying
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Let Aunty Mildred give her views please Gents!
I like the fact that Mr 4Sale has stood up and voiced the opinion of so many out there. Wow! Is this the start of a revolution? Step aside sceptics, and Mr Solenta - to avoid being strapped to a bed and getting a good whippin' I hope that you are going to take to heart the discussion that has been put forward.
All the operators need to start taking a good look at how they treat and pay their staff.
I like the fact that Mr 4Sale has stood up and voiced the opinion of so many out there. Wow! Is this the start of a revolution? Step aside sceptics, and Mr Solenta - to avoid being strapped to a bed and getting a good whippin' I hope that you are going to take to heart the discussion that has been put forward.
All the operators need to start taking a good look at how they treat and pay their staff.
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sums
The average house these days in SA costs just under R1 000 000. If you spend more than 1 third of your income on bond repayments you could end up defaulting. Therefore to buy a R1 000 000 house on a 100% bond at 10% interest you need to be earning at least R30 000 per month. That should then be a an average salary for an average pilot in an average job.
How many of us can claim to be average? Most of us somewhere way below that!
How many of us can claim to be average? Most of us somewhere way below that!
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an honest wage for an honest day
What is it about pilots that causes such dissention in the ranks? Aside from the (well advised) airline pilots who are in unions, the rest of the aviation industry just seems to want to screw each other over. In the commercial field you can be highly qualified, but some punk with no experience will come and offer to fly for free (and of course get the job). Freelance should not mean a guy called Lance who will fly for free, and yet there are so many Lance's around its a joke. I am not a freelance pilot, but the knock-on effect to charter, contract and even airline employment is huge.
Anyone who has ever put themselves (daddy's money doesn't count) through flight school should appreciate what they've achieved. Why is it we cannot stand up and be counted, like surgeons (who only ever have 1 patient on the table at a time, compared to our pax lists) and earn a decent wage.
My salary now is not bad compared to some regional airliners, but it is still below what it is worth to take people into a hostile environment and bring tham safely back to earth again.
When are we going to say to operators, `You trust me to look after your multi-million dollar investment, pay me an equivalentl wage.'
Anyone who has ever put themselves (daddy's money doesn't count) through flight school should appreciate what they've achieved. Why is it we cannot stand up and be counted, like surgeons (who only ever have 1 patient on the table at a time, compared to our pax lists) and earn a decent wage.
My salary now is not bad compared to some regional airliners, but it is still below what it is worth to take people into a hostile environment and bring tham safely back to earth again.
When are we going to say to operators, `You trust me to look after your multi-million dollar investment, pay me an equivalentl wage.'
Last edited by oerlikon; 12th May 2007 at 21:53. Reason: mistake in typing
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screw each other over
You ask this question but then leave remarks like the reply on
the cpl 1900 thread. Maybe when pilots like you stop screwing
other upcoming pilots over, thats when it might stop. Until then
i sincerely hope that your salary will reflect your attitude.
the cpl 1900 thread. Maybe when pilots like you stop screwing
other upcoming pilots over, thats when it might stop. Until then
i sincerely hope that your salary will reflect your attitude.