Shocking Atns Service Yesterday?
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Atns Service Yesterday?
Yesterday at ORT INT between 16.00 and 19.00 (local) only one runway was in operation at ORT (WHY I ASK ? WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM)
Due to 1 runway in use (03L) for take off and departures two of our incomming smaller light twin turbine aircraft were Held at Okpit.
The king air 200 for 45 min and our BE19 for 40 min.What seemed totally frustrating is the schedule trafic were not even held or possibly were held but for a few minutes only.
The above delay is not acceptable on Clear VFR late afternoon EVEN WITH ONE runway.It transpires that we were late on our arrival slots.Thats called charter, often you are in the bush somewhere and you cant re book an arrival slot. Pax arrive late, thats charter.It seemed that because we were late its now time to penalize the the small boys and lets get the slot arrival sheet out,blow the dust off it and use it.(I would love to see ATNS hold a SAA flight from New york for 45 min-JA right!! .Most days its hardly referred to and we never have problems, its simply a guide to manage the amount of incomming trafic.
Please could somebody at Atns provide us with some insight into the delays yesterday or was it a case of short staffed because everybody was busy watching the cricket?
and that was a waste of time as well!!!
It must be said that normally the Area and Radar pool offer a excellent service in general, perhaps somebody was having a bad day.!
Due to 1 runway in use (03L) for take off and departures two of our incomming smaller light twin turbine aircraft were Held at Okpit.
The king air 200 for 45 min and our BE19 for 40 min.What seemed totally frustrating is the schedule trafic were not even held or possibly were held but for a few minutes only.
The above delay is not acceptable on Clear VFR late afternoon EVEN WITH ONE runway.It transpires that we were late on our arrival slots.Thats called charter, often you are in the bush somewhere and you cant re book an arrival slot. Pax arrive late, thats charter.It seemed that because we were late its now time to penalize the the small boys and lets get the slot arrival sheet out,blow the dust off it and use it.(I would love to see ATNS hold a SAA flight from New york for 45 min-JA right!! .Most days its hardly referred to and we never have problems, its simply a guide to manage the amount of incomming trafic.
Please could somebody at Atns provide us with some insight into the delays yesterday or was it a case of short staffed because everybody was busy watching the cricket?
and that was a waste of time as well!!!It must be said that normally the Area and Radar pool offer a excellent service in general, perhaps somebody was having a bad day.!
Last edited by CALCULATOR; 1st Apr 2007 at 14:16.
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service yesterday, ort
morning. runway belongs to acsa, as per notam they closed the runway for rubber removal, as per most saturdays. we are restricted to work 8nm between arrivals to allow departures from 03l. you are invited to come and view the tapes to see if any space had been wasted between arrivals. due to the amount of arrivals and 8nm rule to allow departures, vmc or imc, we had delays. it works the same as a shopping centre car park, if only 100 bays available only 100 cars can park there and it works on first come first service basis, if we could have 4 more runways i will land traffic on them, but since i had one only yesterday, well i am happy to report we did mighty fine thank you. 
. and for the cricket 
.
. and for the cricket .
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Thanks nel31369, please see last words I added to my post.
First come first serve? Im sure we were there long before some other traffic in fact im happy to bet even before some jets were airborne from Durbs?
Ja might just come and see the tapes(beter than the cricket)
Anyway the guys normally do a awsome job we cant have it our way every day, just seemed if the delay was one of the longest weve had EVER.?Keep up the good work.
First come first serve? Im sure we were there long before some other traffic in fact im happy to bet even before some jets were airborne from Durbs?
Ja might just come and see the tapes(beter than the cricket)
Anyway the guys normally do a awsome job we cant have it our way every day, just seemed if the delay was one of the longest weve had EVER.?Keep up the good work.
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Typical Airline Pilot Attitude
The previous reply can only be be an airline pilot.Remember business aviation is allowed to use your airspace as well as you are. Also some of those passengers that earn a lot more than you ever hope to require our services to pick them up at Johannesburg International and take them to destinations that you and i can only dream of staying at. So brighten up and share the airspace. The tourists are here to provide everyone with employment not just airline pilots and ATC.
On the original thread general/business aviation is finding it increasingly difficult to use JIA with respect to Slots. And do not speak about Cape Town. You can never get them on the phone either. ATC have a difficult job but somehow we need to meet in the middle somewhere and somehow.
ANY ANSWERS...............
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Atns Or Acsa?
funny thing this....why is it straight away ATNS and the controllers faults? the runway is ACSA'S and therefore they can do as they please with it.. If you consult the arrival and departure slots around those times they are full so it does not take a rocket scientist to work out that that just won't work.EVERYBODY got to do their fair share of holding yesterday, the 2 small aircraft mentioned were not victimized in any way! they could have had it much worse...
Maybe you should put pen to paper to ACSA if you are unhappy and stop blaming the messengers...AGAIN..we do the best we can..and if you don't have an arrival slot you have no foot to stand on...
Welcome to Africa!
Maybe you should put pen to paper to ACSA if you are unhappy and stop blaming the messengers...AGAIN..we do the best we can..and if you don't have an arrival slot you have no foot to stand on...
Welcome to Africa!
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Nel31369
Just curious , of late when you give us arrival into OKPIT why are we also given headings to steer after passing overhead OKPIT ?
Its something new thought it was just on a particular day, but saw it twice when I came in from Epsek
Zenj
Just curious , of late when you give us arrival into OKPIT why are we also given headings to steer after passing overhead OKPIT ?
Its something new thought it was just on a particular day, but saw it twice when I came in from Epsek
Zenj
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Zenj - to answer for King ..
This week HGV was off the air, this affects the OKPIT Arr, as a result Okpit HDG 210/190 was used.
Could also be for 21 shorter routing if the sequencing tool says you are next in. ie OKPIT HDG 240 probably to intercept the LLZ.
Cheers
This week HGV was off the air, this affects the OKPIT Arr, as a result Okpit HDG 210/190 was used.
Could also be for 21 shorter routing if the sequencing tool says you are next in. ie OKPIT HDG 240 probably to intercept the LLZ.
Cheers
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Thanks for explanation, ATC in Joburg (& SA) is the best in AFRICA !
The rest is "Self Service" - Rodgg
Last edited by Q4NVS; 25th Mar 2007 at 20:03.
Gatvol
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All this delay and in Class C Airspace, unbelieveable... I fly from Class B daily and the best I have seen with major carriers is about ten minutes with maybe 10 carriers in line.
As helicopter driver, I rarely get a delay of more than a minute while all the other stuff is going on and Im in a string of 5-10 helicopters.
The reason is we have pleanty of controllers and Tower operators who can control, and have the toys. They do some wonderful coordination. If I am correct things in Africa are very thinly staffed.
Based on this and other threads, I guess Im not telling anyone anything new. You need better Ground equipment, Radar and trained Controllers/ Tower Operators.
Correct??
As helicopter driver, I rarely get a delay of more than a minute while all the other stuff is going on and Im in a string of 5-10 helicopters.
The reason is we have pleanty of controllers and Tower operators who can control, and have the toys. They do some wonderful coordination. If I am correct things in Africa are very thinly staffed.
Based on this and other threads, I guess Im not telling anyone anything new. You need better Ground equipment, Radar and trained Controllers/ Tower Operators.
Correct??
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Surely the time to do the rubber cleanning and runway maint is off peak hours, like they do at all busy Int airports.....early hours of the morning.
Acsa may own the runway but ATC has to release it to them..tell them when the best time is to do the maint..probably cheaper than having jets spin all afternoon...if there was another airport to go to guess what would happen to your buissines.
Acsa may own the runway but ATC has to release it to them..tell them when the best time is to do the maint..probably cheaper than having jets spin all afternoon...if there was another airport to go to guess what would happen to your buissines.
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Hey snake-in-the-grass.
Yoy'd think it was like that. However ACSA have the final say. (i'm sure all users and affected parties are consulted)
RWY 03R used to close on a Sat at about 2, now its 1630, soon it will have to be 1830. The thing is they need a certain amount of time to do their thing.
With all the other scheduled closures on the other days it only leaves Saturday night.
As this is notamed and has been ongoing for a while (and not being an expert) why do the charters do extra charters on a Saturday afternoon. Sure the client in the end dictates but then should also be made aware of the risk (arrival slot availabilty etc)
Oddly enough the calculator man kills his own story by admitting they missed their slot anyway (not that making it would've guarenteed no hold)
WB was also mentioned - surely this is a similar point, too many operator's (charter or training) for the airport. New operator sets up anyway knowing about the congestion and then complains about the service.
Oh well that's capitalism i guess.
Cheers
Yoy'd think it was like that. However ACSA have the final say. (i'm sure all users and affected parties are consulted)
RWY 03R used to close on a Sat at about 2, now its 1630, soon it will have to be 1830. The thing is they need a certain amount of time to do their thing.
With all the other scheduled closures on the other days it only leaves Saturday night.
As this is notamed and has been ongoing for a while (and not being an expert) why do the charters do extra charters on a Saturday afternoon. Sure the client in the end dictates but then should also be made aware of the risk (arrival slot availabilty etc)
Oddly enough the calculator man kills his own story by admitting they missed their slot anyway (not that making it would've guarenteed no hold)
WB was also mentioned - surely this is a similar point, too many operator's (charter or training) for the airport. New operator sets up anyway knowing about the congestion and then complains about the service.
Oh well that's capitalism i guess.
Cheers
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thanks for the support bull.
the durban chaps did a spin or two at bebas and then one at stv on black saturday.
. It is true that we are not fully staffed and had not been for more than a decade, and alas there seems to be more atc's leaving soon. So brace yourself for more holds, director sector opens only on days that we have enough staff and with the pending resignations we will not be enough atc's to run the sectors and that is a cold hard fact. i can honestly say that fajs atc's cook with gas
.
the durban chaps did a spin or two at bebas and then one at stv on black saturday.
. It is true that we are not fully staffed and had not been for more than a decade, and alas there seems to be more atc's leaving soon. So brace yourself for more holds, director sector opens only on days that we have enough staff and with the pending resignations we will not be enough atc's to run the sectors and that is a cold hard fact. i can honestly say that fajs atc's cook with gas .
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i can honestly say that fajs atc's cook with gas
, lucky you are an ATC.BTW, the Shift key can be used to introduce capitals to your posts. Whole new horizons lie before you. Next time I will tell you about the Enter key for paragraphs.
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Another look at the main issue
This reporter did a bit of digging around today and asked quite a few questions.
The main problem after having spoken to a few contacts at ORT tower are: ACSA demands that 03R be closed from 14.00Z and after this single runway ops are put in place ie all traffic on finals must be seperated by 8 miles so that the tower has a chance to launch departures.
The main issue is with now only one runway in use your capacity at ORT is halved BUT according to the arrival and departure slot sheets no provision is being made for single runway ops.The slot sheet is still allowing the same amount of arrivals and departures as they would for 2 runway ops.'Hello" any rocket scientist will tell you that with no reduction in arrival slots how can you manage the same traffic with only one piece of tar?
Looking at that time of day its not so much the departures that are the problem but definatley between 14.00z and 16.00z there are many arrivals hence the problem.
Stuaght Rudcliff from Atns(in charge of slots) should be reducing the amount of arrivals over this time and possibly departures.This would certainly mean less traffic inbound over that time and mean less win and spin around the TMA. Also all operators should be putting pressure on ACSA(Brian Thompson-ex Atc and one of the best in his time-to move the closure of the runway to much later at night when ORT can handle single runway ops.
Until something is done jointly by ATNS(slots) and ACSA we are going to have the same drama every Saturday between 14.00z and 16.00 z.
A final point well taken is that yes make sure you not only book but UPDATE your arrival slot before coming to ORT especially for us "charter boys."
The main problem after having spoken to a few contacts at ORT tower are: ACSA demands that 03R be closed from 14.00Z and after this single runway ops are put in place ie all traffic on finals must be seperated by 8 miles so that the tower has a chance to launch departures.
The main issue is with now only one runway in use your capacity at ORT is halved BUT according to the arrival and departure slot sheets no provision is being made for single runway ops.The slot sheet is still allowing the same amount of arrivals and departures as they would for 2 runway ops.'Hello" any rocket scientist will tell you that with no reduction in arrival slots how can you manage the same traffic with only one piece of tar?
Looking at that time of day its not so much the departures that are the problem but definatley between 14.00z and 16.00z there are many arrivals hence the problem.
Stuaght Rudcliff from Atns(in charge of slots) should be reducing the amount of arrivals over this time and possibly departures.This would certainly mean less traffic inbound over that time and mean less win and spin around the TMA. Also all operators should be putting pressure on ACSA(Brian Thompson-ex Atc and one of the best in his time-to move the closure of the runway to much later at night when ORT can handle single runway ops.
Until something is done jointly by ATNS(slots) and ACSA we are going to have the same drama every Saturday between 14.00z and 16.00 z.
A final point well taken is that yes make sure you not only book but UPDATE your arrival slot before coming to ORT especially for us "charter boys."
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Calculator
Interesting comment about your charter and the pax being late etc etc affecting slots.
I can remember a few years ago that same problem arose in Europe with charters being late and Eurocontrol simply told the operators that a slot is just that - it is up to the charter operators to educate their pax and impress on them the need to arrive at the time they want the a/c. You only need to catch a few big fish and everyone learns. By impressing on your charterers the need to be on time it is going to make it a lot easier for you.
I remember the classic case of a SA businessman a few years ago who arrived late at Le Bourget to go to Luton and when the crew tried to get a new slot the earliest they could get was 6 hours down the line. Well said businessman threw his toys and demanded to go and they just ignored him. But now he has learnt his lesson and when he flies in Europe he is always on time.
So the slots system is a 2 way thing - you be on time and it works and ATC handles you, but you need to ensure your pax understand that. And once they learn how it works they will always be on time.
Oh and if you get a pm from Springbok 702 about questions be careful what u say - it is Radio702 in disguise - you have been warned!
Interesting comment about your charter and the pax being late etc etc affecting slots.
I can remember a few years ago that same problem arose in Europe with charters being late and Eurocontrol simply told the operators that a slot is just that - it is up to the charter operators to educate their pax and impress on them the need to arrive at the time they want the a/c. You only need to catch a few big fish and everyone learns. By impressing on your charterers the need to be on time it is going to make it a lot easier for you.
I remember the classic case of a SA businessman a few years ago who arrived late at Le Bourget to go to Luton and when the crew tried to get a new slot the earliest they could get was 6 hours down the line. Well said businessman threw his toys and demanded to go and they just ignored him. But now he has learnt his lesson and when he flies in Europe he is always on time.
So the slots system is a 2 way thing - you be on time and it works and ATC handles you, but you need to ensure your pax understand that. And once they learn how it works they will always be on time.
Oh and if you get a pm from Springbok 702 about questions be careful what u say - it is Radio702 in disguise - you have been warned!
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Maybe the folks at ATNS should realise that flowcontrol is not a precise science. There are so many factors which might affect the punctuality of a flight. Lets just start with the baggage handler.....rough night last night and he is surely not in a hurry to expedite carrying a massive suitcase while suffering from that monster hangover. Just have a chat with anybody at CFMU in Brussels.
Can't believe Calculator's report on the flowguy's procedures at JNB. How can they not reduce capacity when there is only one runway? Maybe somebody should chat to this guy or ATNS should change the way they do business.
NEL31369
Maybe you worked your 8nm between arrivals, but who is the guy that took over from you. Did he work to the same standard or was he from team 5? IE the sick and tha lame. And I'm sure that ACSA will be buying snow clearing equipment way before anybody from the public can view any tapes. Ever!
Can't believe Calculator's report on the flowguy's procedures at JNB. How can they not reduce capacity when there is only one runway? Maybe somebody should chat to this guy or ATNS should change the way they do business.
NEL31369
Maybe you worked your 8nm between arrivals, but who is the guy that took over from you. Did he work to the same standard or was he from team 5? IE the sick and tha lame. And I'm sure that ACSA will be buying snow clearing equipment way before anybody from the public can view any tapes. Ever!
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"Oh and if you get a pm from Springbok 702 about questions be careful what u say - it is Radio702 in disguise - you have been warned!"
Nothing in disguise, you have nothing to worry about unless you have something to hide.
Your colleagues were all very helpful in doing the story on the Atc's who are all leaving to greener pastures.
Nothing in disguise, you have nothing to worry about unless you have something to hide.
Your colleagues were all very helpful in doing the story on the Atc's who are all leaving to greener pastures.
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Hi
We flew into FAJS last Friday on a medivac in our little king air 200 from Botswana. I would like to thank all the controllers (particularly Approach) for accommodating us to the highest degree, as an ex British Pilot working in deepest darkest Africa it was very refreshing to be served in such a professional manner, and would like to extend my deepest gratitude to all involved.
Just goes to show that the system does work sometimes.
We flew into FAJS last Friday on a medivac in our little king air 200 from Botswana. I would like to thank all the controllers (particularly Approach) for accommodating us to the highest degree, as an ex British Pilot working in deepest darkest Africa it was very refreshing to be served in such a professional manner, and would like to extend my deepest gratitude to all involved.
Just goes to show that the system does work sometimes.