Shocking Atns Service Yesterday?

[bitchflying11]

Shame just another FEDAIR pilot moaning!!!

I feel for you tho, cause you guys are not getting paid for what you do. And any delays, well just a waste of time!!

I have no idea why you guys do not strike!!! I think you al have no
b lls

Happy flying, and enjoy getting paid peanuts!! You pay peanuts, and you get monkeys up front

[Pux]

peanut gallery

Happy flying, and enjoy getting paid peanuts!! You pay peanuts, and you get monkeys up front

eish!! thats a bit harsh they gonna hunt you down

[Avi8tor]

31/3/07

The problems on saturday started way before the closure of 3R. Due to wx in the morning aircraft were still backed up at 1030Z. The queue for start was getting longer not shorter!!! It was a clear skys day with both runways in use!!!

I know that the 'purple couch' team have implimented some silly station rules. But its time that ATNS had a long hard look at how and what it does.

I know the boys and girls behind the screens are going the best they can and very professionally too.

But they need all the support from the rest of them at ATNS. Also a change in attitude would help. Asked a tower controller why they dont use the left more for landing, answer was a peach:

"we are too busy crossing traffic from the right"

[RadarMaggot]

Avi8tor

"we are too busy crossing traffic from the right"

What do you suggest then - landing 03L and departing 03R??

There is a very fine line between using 03R for landing as well as 03L...
The delay times for departing aircraft increase a few minutes every time someone lands on 03L and this has a snowball effect when if there is a long queue waiting for start.

Landing on 03R and waiting to cross 03L (between departing aircraft only!) has the least overall delaying effect.

"It was a clear skys day with both runways in use!!! "

Why do all (sorry - some people actually think before making an assumption) pilots think that there will be no delays when Smuts is VMC?? Ever heard of the "Bigger Picture"? And before you go on and rant about ATC's always saying the "Bigger Picture"... well it's because we DO have a bigger picture on our screens.

Have to go land some more traffic on the right

[asianeagle]

Just my 2 cents worth, Heathrow often lands on both runways with all departures. Including crossing traffic to Terminal 4 on 27L / 09R. That is a busy airport, I am not so sure ORT is in the same league.

[Avi8tor]

the big picture?

I wish the 'big picture' excuse would stop being used. As i have been flying out of ORT way before it was ORT, i kinda know that when i can see from the cockpit that nothing is taxying for 3L that it can be used for landing.

Just a thought, if u landed more guys on the left, there would be LESS to cross from the right. Use it, dont use it.

No screen needed when mark one eyeball is available. Also clever thing this handy TCAS/ACAS.

Please, this is NOT aimed at the guys behind the screens downstairs, I KNOW they are way short staffed and need more sectors.

But the system has to punish the tar more often if u wanna push more traffic. This requires the tower/ground controllers to get with the program. 3miles is NOT a late landing clearance!!!

[nugpot]

This requires the tower/ground controllers to get with the program.

Amen brother!

[RadarMaggot]

"Also clever thing this handy TCAS/ACAS"

Then why do some pilots still do go-arounds on short final because of helicopter traffic (which TWR TOLD them about AND they acknowledged it)? Maybe forgot to switch to TA instead of keeping it on RA?

"This requires the tower/ground controllers to get with the program. 3miles is NOT a late landing clearance!!!"

IT is in ATNS!! If you want to punish the tar - it can be done and has been done in years gone by. Unfortunately we cannot go back to the good 'ol days without getting in trouble with the Boss.

It would also help getting things changed on our side if ACSA finished all the Rapid Exit Taxiways (AND we may actually use them!!), without which our hands are tied...

"I wish the 'big picture' excuse would stop being used"

Then stop yapping about landing on 03L...

[nugpot]

Hmm, now who's flying the aircraft?

Then why do some pilots still do go-arounds on short final because of helicopter traffic (which TWR TOLD them about AND they acknowledged it)?

From the authorities (FAA in this case, AC120-55B):

ATC may not know when TCAS issues RAs. It is possible for ATC to unknowingly issue instructions that are contrary to the TCAS RA indications. Safe vertical separation may be lost during TCAS coordination when one aircraft maneuvers opposite the vertical direction indicated by TCAS and the other aircraft maneuvers as indicated by TCAS. As a result, both aircraft may experience excessive altitude excursions in “vertical chase” scenarios due to the aircraft maneuvering in the same vertical direction. Accordingly, during an RA, do not maneuver contrary to the RA based solely upon ATC instructions.

Unfortunately, the mere fact that ATC warned us about traffic does not remove the responsibility to act on every RA. An acknowledged aircraft can kill you just as dead as an unacknowledged one. A midair will spoil my day much worse than the ATC's day.

Maybe forgot to switch to TA instead of keeping it on RA?

Almost all a/c installations automatically inhibit RA's below 1000' AGL. In any case, the choppers usually don't have mode S transponders, so you cannot get an RA, only a TA.

Finally, a go-around is a very expensive exercise and causes a lot of paperwork. It won't be done without good reason, usually good safety reasons.

[fluffyfan]

Then why do some pilots still do go-arounds on short final because of helicopter traffic (which TWR TOLD them about AND they acknowledged it)? Maybe forgot to switch to TA instead of keeping it on RA?

On the 737-800 RA's are inhibited below 1000ft, and as Nugpt says

Almost all a/c installations automatically inhibit RA's below 1000' AGL

Will have to take his word on this only know the 800 myself.

However, no pilot will ever select TA only due to an ATC advisory message about traffic, and we are trained that when you get a RA, you comply imediatley, no negotiation, no ummm should we......if you get a RA you do what the aircraft says without question, if the crew of the Russian Airline over Europe had complied with the TCAS instead of what the ATC told him 100 something people would be alive today

[Pux]

fly more and complain less!!

Almost all a/c installations automatically inhibit RA's below 1000' AGL. In any case, the choppers usually don't have mode S transponders, so you cannot get an RA, only a TA.

the express aircraft in question that day claimed she had a full RA and HAD to go around. while the heilcoptor pilot said, and the radar picture showed clearly that the helicopter passed well behind the F28 on finals for RWY03R!!!!!!!!!!!!and the F28 was below 1000'!!!!!

as for tower/ground controllers getting with the program??? come sit in for a few sessions and then you'll SEE the bigger picture we talk about! in between pilots nagging for numbers in a que, we deal with restrictions from radar, area(route seps wrt times) and believe it or not even apron that messes up parking bays.not to even to speak about weather, and dont give me that crap about londen weather!!

3miles is NOT a late landing clearance!!!

then don't nag, "im short finals", if you are within 3miles (as if i would forget about you???) and have not received a landing clearance yet due to the fact that the preceding landing aircraft has not yet vacated!!!

[nugpot]

as for tower/ground controllers getting with the program??? come sit in for a few sessions and then you'll SEE the bigger picture we talk about!

It would help a lot if communications with controllers were taken seriously. After a particularly frustrating encounter with TWR, I called the controller involved. She refused to take my call but promised (via the assistant) to call me back. Obviously after 2 weeks I am still waiting. Three days later I ended up next to your COO (our previous CEO) on an SAA flight to CPT and dicussed the whole issue with her. Although I am not holding my breath, I hope that some action is taken.

The fact is that ATNS is a service provider to airlines and aviation companies. The charges are exorbitant and as customers we have the right and the obligation to complain when the service is not up to scratch. With departure and arrival slots becoming the be-all and end-all (and a convenient excuse for delays), a 4 minute delay at the hold because of dicey planning in TWR becomes a problem for the captain who has a responsibility to his pax and company to be on time and save fuel.

I have found that ATNS JNB has some world class controllers. They are compentent, friendly and awesome under pressure. They are also mostly on Radar and sometimes on Area. Then there are the others.....

In cockpits you find the same spread, so ATNS is not alone here. What I find galling is that the ATC's are defending their collegues blindly while I sincerely hope that they realise there are some of them that are clearly not up to scratch.

I am now done with my JNB stint and will be out of your airspace for (hopefully) a long, long time. I'm going back to where the controllers know my voice and I know theirs. Complaints are listened to without agressive retaliation and sorted out over a beer.

Thanks ATNS ORTIA. Some days I was overawed at the excellence displayed by controllers, other days I wondered how the idiot could find the transmit pedal without assistance. I know about your staff and Ops problems.

Good luck and thanks for not killing me.

[RadarMaggot]

nugpot and fluffyfan

VMC by day and TWR ATC can see you. Both aircraft were told about each other and I guarantee that the chopper had the aircraft on final in sight!!

Now don't come barging in about the Russian in Europe - first of all it happened at night at cruising altitude!! (ref VMC by DAY and in VICINITY of Aerodrome).

Quote from nugpot

"Almost all a/c installations automatically inhibit RA's below 1000' AGL. In any case, the choppers usually don't have mode S transponders, so you cannot get an RA, only a TA."

You only need mode C information for the RA to be activated - not mode S. You will however get a TA only with mode A.

Oh, and if you havn't noticed yet - JS ATC's don't give instructions if a pilot reports and RA climb/descend.

[nugpot]

You only need mode C information for the RA to be activated - not mode S.

I apologise, you are quite correct. Both need mode S for coordinated RA's.

[RadarMaggot]

Bye bye...

Glad to be of service to you nugpot.

We'll probably speak again sooner than you think...

Cheers and enjoy!

[Avi8tor]

At Last!!

I think we are getting somewhere at last!!

IT is in ATNS!! If you want to punish the tar - it can be done and has been done in years gone by. Unfortunately we cannot go back to the good 'ol days without getting in trouble with the Boss.

Now we are acknowledging there is a problem, not running around denying it. Lets accept that ATNS has a problem and it leads to sht service. I don't care who is to blame, lets just find out WHAT is wrong, not who, and fix it.

[OverheadOrOverheard]

Hey Nugpot

You still have to leave the FIR so we got one more chance. Bon Voyage.

Triple O

[Pux]

bey bey nugpot and by the way...

It would help a lot if communications with controllers were taken seriously. After a particularly frustrating encounter with TWR, I called the controller involved. She refused to take my call but promised (via the assistant) to call me back. Obviously after 2 weeks I am still waiting.

thats very unfortunate that she (who ever this in question might be) didn't call u back. understandable if she was busy and could not take your call, but the person should have called you back. (so we are not blindly defending collueges) if you can remember the person and still want to talk please call.

i wish you could elaberate on the "others" as you refer to them. feel free to send me a private message but i would like to know more. i am though glad that you acknowledge the fact that the spread are on both sides of the fence. we get equally frustrated with some pilots and are sometimes reminded it might be a student in the cockpit, please bear in mind that we also have students sometimes. They are sometimes nervous and unsure of themselfves, as are all students across the board. so i dont know if these are the "others" you refer to, please correct me if im wrong

when we wrong we admit it, and i speak hopefully for many collueges i have come to know as distighuished ladies and guys. but we will defend our ground when silly statements are made while we do our utmost best to make the system work within the set restrictions.

i wish you well on your future travels and may you find yourself longing for the friendly professional service of ORTIA ATC's.

God speed to you.

[Avi8tor]

Excuses

It would also help getting things changed on our side if ACSA finished all the Rapid Exit Taxiways (AND we may actually use them!!), without which our hands are tied...

......so how did u do it in the old days?

I wish the 'big picture' excuse would stop being used"

Then stop yapping about landing on 03L...

Talk about the big picture!!! The reason we 'yap' about the left is cause it means its 5 less miles everybody has to fly!!! If in a sequence of 10 aircraft every 3rd one landed on the left, aircraft 3 to 5 would save 5 miles each, 6to 8 would save 10 miles and 9 and 10 would save 15 miles!!!

TOTAL saving to industry = 75 miles .

15 miles is not a huge saving from LHR but from PTG its 10% of the trip.

P.S. heard of global warming?

[anatc2]

so how did u do it in the old days?

quicker pilots?

The reason we 'yap' about the left

you yap more when you're the guy waiting to depart!

Stop trying to tell ATC's how to do there job. Strap in, shut up and do your job!
(remember thats the one where you turn all those knobs and order tea)

bye