Buying Experience
Join Date: Jan 2003
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The biggest problem with the standards of newly trained air crew lay at the foot of the training organisations, and then ultimatly the CAA. Aviation is probably the only profession where new recruits are taught by the members of the profession who have the least experience. Doctors, accountants, architects etc all get their training from highly qualified people who have been in their industry for many years. This is evident at any flight school where you will find 250hr instructors teaching new recruits - why, because the industry won't hire as a rule a new pilot until he has some kind of experience, so he does an instructors rating and sand sacks his hours that way.
At the end of the day, I don't necessarily feel that a low time instructor is always a bad instructor, but the guys are seldom given the instruction tools to do their job well in the first place. A flight school will typically screen the better of their students and offer them an instuctors rating in return for a year or so of work for very low salaries once they get their CPL's. The CAA needs to step in to ensure standards in the form of some kind of instructors school where all ratings, upgrades and renewals are done in order to ensure standards and latest teaching techniques are applied as a standard.
The reason why low time crew make it in other parts of the world is that airlines/operators there spend a whole lot more on training, and they don't accept below standard performance.
At the end of the day, I don't necessarily feel that a low time instructor is always a bad instructor, but the guys are seldom given the instruction tools to do their job well in the first place. A flight school will typically screen the better of their students and offer them an instuctors rating in return for a year or so of work for very low salaries once they get their CPL's. The CAA needs to step in to ensure standards in the form of some kind of instructors school where all ratings, upgrades and renewals are done in order to ensure standards and latest teaching techniques are applied as a standard.
The reason why low time crew make it in other parts of the world is that airlines/operators there spend a whole lot more on training, and they don't accept below standard performance.
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Yes, but
Current limiter, I like the points you raise but may I humbly disagree with your notion that the flight schools are at fault here; they are the indirect tools of the CAA dispensing the syllabus as the CAA lays down. It is a great credit to 43 (I do not work for them) that they turn our the better quality of CPLs in this country as evidenced as least by the reputation and standing they enjoy. It is certainly the case that in this country we do have a system where the least experienced teach the core skills; many do an exceptional job, others are more mediocre. The sadness is that these young keen instructors lack the line experience to add colour to the overall picture. In the UK it seems to be quite the opposite, thankfully. The training industry here in SA might well do more to recruit the great wealth of experience tied up in our retired flight crew but I realise that after many years of aviation many are more happy to spend their time at the 19th hole. If there is anything to learn by the JAA system it is this, 200 hr graduate pilots of the approved schools can and DO enter the employment stream at a level where most of our pilots here take 3-5 years of hard badly paid graft to get to.
How do we address this and overcome the matter that was first raised in this thread?
How do we address this and overcome the matter that was first raised in this thread?
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Catch22
This is my first response on pprune, so undersand if I havent figured out the proper way to respond and ask questions in the pprune way!
I am in the process of earning my FAA commercial mulit and I have to say, its tough to be in the position to try and get a job where they ask for experence, but there is no place to get such experence. It is even tougher to live on a flight instructors pay. My question is, if I have 300hrs, 115 multi, will I still be able to find a job in Africa, or will I be forced into paying for flight time to compete with these people? I dont want to pay if I can help it, but this thread got me a little down. Any help would be great in understanding what I would need to do
I am in the process of earning my FAA commercial mulit and I have to say, its tough to be in the position to try and get a job where they ask for experence, but there is no place to get such experence. It is even tougher to live on a flight instructors pay. My question is, if I have 300hrs, 115 multi, will I still be able to find a job in Africa, or will I be forced into paying for flight time to compete with these people? I dont want to pay if I can help it, but this thread got me a little down. Any help would be great in understanding what I would need to do
Join Date: Jan 2004
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If I had serious coin and could fast track myself to a better flying position I would have done so...
If you are not cut to be a pilot then your career will falter somewhere along the line.
Good luck to this chap. He may get the break he does not deserve or he will wash up on the beach somewhere with the multitude of other dreamy eyed morons.
There are many filters in aviation and paying for time without cutting your teeth is a sure way to regret signing the cheque....
If you are not cut to be a pilot then your career will falter somewhere along the line.
Good luck to this chap. He may get the break he does not deserve or he will wash up on the beach somewhere with the multitude of other dreamy eyed morons.
There are many filters in aviation and paying for time without cutting your teeth is a sure way to regret signing the cheque....
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"If there is anything to learn by the JAA system it is this, 200 hr graduate pilots of the approved schools can and DO enter the employment stream at a level where most of our pilots here take 3-5 years of hard badly paid graft to get to. "
Bucket, just my 2 cents worth.....
While the JAA system places a lot of emphasis on the theoretical and the mulit crew environment etc etc..... I have found that most JAA low time pilots (trained in the UK) looking for work (outside the UK) battle to maintain the centreline... lazy feet? So he can pass the exams and the sim test but not so hot in the hands-on department, and don't get me started on the subject of airmanship! Most of the pilots train abroad anyhow..... so don't mock the systems that your fellow aviators have tarined at
While I will say that the standards in SA appear to have dropped, it is very hard to generalise, it's really up to each individuals own ability.
My opinion on the JO's of the aviation industry is that there is clealry a market for it....Hell, I remember being approached, and while I might not agree with it all, some people A) have the cash and B) are that desperate. It's not cool how these poor suckers are being taken for a ride...... but then again when it comes to the interview at the next job... surely the employer who is holding the interview would pick this sort of thing up..... ask for a reference or something?
At the end of the day, realistically what can we do about this situation? It's up to the future employers to control the path of these pilots to a certain degree.
Bucket, just my 2 cents worth.....
While the JAA system places a lot of emphasis on the theoretical and the mulit crew environment etc etc..... I have found that most JAA low time pilots (trained in the UK) looking for work (outside the UK) battle to maintain the centreline... lazy feet? So he can pass the exams and the sim test but not so hot in the hands-on department, and don't get me started on the subject of airmanship! Most of the pilots train abroad anyhow..... so don't mock the systems that your fellow aviators have tarined at
While I will say that the standards in SA appear to have dropped, it is very hard to generalise, it's really up to each individuals own ability.
My opinion on the JO's of the aviation industry is that there is clealry a market for it....Hell, I remember being approached, and while I might not agree with it all, some people A) have the cash and B) are that desperate. It's not cool how these poor suckers are being taken for a ride...... but then again when it comes to the interview at the next job... surely the employer who is holding the interview would pick this sort of thing up..... ask for a reference or something?
At the end of the day, realistically what can we do about this situation? It's up to the future employers to control the path of these pilots to a certain degree.
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hole in the bucket
Bucket, mate, sorry to say but there are a few holes in your theory, 1st, a lot of JAA students come here to SA to do their training and then go back home to do the subjects and still end up in the right seat of an A320 way before we do, so was the training they got here worse? I think not. 2nd, the reason they get there sooner is that there are a hell of a lot more heavy a/c there than here, not because they are superior. 3rd, some of the best pilots I have ever flown with were 300hr instructors, though I never did it, I dont see a problem with a 200hr instructor teaching a new ppl if it is done correctly as most of the schools here in SA do. 4th, so what if the JAA has 14 complex exams and UK pilots have a better theory base of knowlage? at the end of the day that theory means sh!t if they dont get a chance to fly and gain the experiance (would you prefer a 200hr jaa student next to you in an A320 when the poo starts flying or a guy who hat gone and cut his teeth on light a/c 1st?)
South coast, thanks for the reply, sorry, net has been down for days, africa wins again. No, I am not a DE but I dont think that that means I cant see when a guy has been trained badly, I have lost count of how many people I have flown with in my life and know a good co jo when I see one. As for the not liking him, wrong, I like and admire the guy for packing up a good job and moving over to aviation at such a late stage. that is also why I dont mind him paying for more training and hrs on a big a/c to jump start things a bit. What I am the hell in about is that a nice guy like him was taken for a ride, thinking this would help him and yet he was not given the level of training he paid for. I am happy to report that he has come a long way in the last month and will be on top of it all soon.
You are right though, I am not in a position to do anything about it as I am not a DE, so what can be done to stop the JO's of the world creating unsafe pilots?
South coast, thanks for the reply, sorry, net has been down for days, africa wins again. No, I am not a DE but I dont think that that means I cant see when a guy has been trained badly, I have lost count of how many people I have flown with in my life and know a good co jo when I see one. As for the not liking him, wrong, I like and admire the guy for packing up a good job and moving over to aviation at such a late stage. that is also why I dont mind him paying for more training and hrs on a big a/c to jump start things a bit. What I am the hell in about is that a nice guy like him was taken for a ride, thinking this would help him and yet he was not given the level of training he paid for. I am happy to report that he has come a long way in the last month and will be on top of it all soon.
You are right though, I am not in a position to do anything about it as I am not a DE, so what can be done to stop the JO's of the world creating unsafe pilots?
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Tango and Contract,
Could not have said it better myself.
Although I can not comment on the CPL I can comment on the PPL as I've done both JAA and SA licences. Although the JAA was more difficult I found the SA ppl to be far more practicle...........and a lot more fun if Im perfectly honest as our syllabus is less confining. I love a challenge while Im in the cockpit and things like low flying and landing in bush strips is more my cup of tea than how many miles I have to go untill I get to the next NDB. I will go out on a limb here and say that if I was a "real pilot" 
I would much prefer a co jo that has already cut his teeth then somebody who is a low houred wonder jock. But then I've never wanted to push buttons for a living. 
Could not have said it better myself.
Although I can not comment on the CPL I can comment on the PPL as I've done both JAA and SA licences. Although the JAA was more difficult I found the SA ppl to be far more practicle...........and a lot more fun if Im perfectly honest as our syllabus is less confining. I love a challenge while Im in the cockpit and things like low flying and landing in bush strips is more my cup of tea than how many miles I have to go untill I get to the next NDB. I will go out on a limb here and say that if I was a "real pilot" I would much prefer a co jo that has already cut his teeth then somebody who is a low houred wonder jock. But then I've never wanted to push buttons for a living.
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**quote**
at the end of the day that theory means sh!t if they dont get a chance to fly and gain the experiance (would you prefer a 200hr jaa student next to you in an A320 when the poo starts flying or a guy who hat gone and cut his teeth on light a/c 1st?)
ContractDog, I am sure you dont really mean the above.
You must remember the 200 hour guy flying a A320/B737 has successfully completed an approved type rating course and therefore is capable of flying the plane.
Of course he is not capable of making big decissions, thats why he is an f-o and not a captain.
Your comparison is unfair, because your person who has, 'cut his teeth' has also undergone the type rating training, by virtue of the fact that he is flying the plane...so you are asking people to compare a 200 hour guy against maybe a 1500 hour guy.
The point I am making is, if they are flying the plane, it means they have completed the type rating course, an LPC, and a 6 monthly OPC.
Basically, it comes down to a different approach from the industry, in Europe, airlines accept that a 200 hour guy with a very good type rating training course is capable of flying that plane as an f-o, where as in SA they dont.
Who is right, who is wrong, thats a harder question, but you dont hear of many planes falling out the sky here because the f-o only had 200 hours.
Do you really believe airlines would risk their name, reputation and whole business on an unsound approach to crewing their aicraft?
at the end of the day that theory means sh!t if they dont get a chance to fly and gain the experiance (would you prefer a 200hr jaa student next to you in an A320 when the poo starts flying or a guy who hat gone and cut his teeth on light a/c 1st?)
ContractDog, I am sure you dont really mean the above.
You must remember the 200 hour guy flying a A320/B737 has successfully completed an approved type rating course and therefore is capable of flying the plane.
Of course he is not capable of making big decissions, thats why he is an f-o and not a captain.
Your comparison is unfair, because your person who has, 'cut his teeth' has also undergone the type rating training, by virtue of the fact that he is flying the plane...so you are asking people to compare a 200 hour guy against maybe a 1500 hour guy.
The point I am making is, if they are flying the plane, it means they have completed the type rating course, an LPC, and a 6 monthly OPC.
Basically, it comes down to a different approach from the industry, in Europe, airlines accept that a 200 hour guy with a very good type rating training course is capable of flying that plane as an f-o, where as in SA they dont.
Who is right, who is wrong, thats a harder question, but you dont hear of many planes falling out the sky here because the f-o only had 200 hours.
Do you really believe airlines would risk their name, reputation and whole business on an unsound approach to crewing their aicraft?
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Yip you both have valid points!
On the one hand the guys are flying the jets
in Europe earlier because there are way more here
then back home in SA, plus there is a huge demand
here in europe at the moment.Easy and Ryan are both
looking for crew, the figures are frightening!(just to name 2 operators)
These guys have got to pass their type rating and that
is to a standard, doesn't matter if you got 200hrs or 2500hrs total
time.Seems that they have it easier, but its just normal progression here.
On the otherhand the SA market is way slower for some obvious
reasons,( i'm so over it), so you gotta go fly in the bush for
a few years! Blah blah blah!!! Thats why I am busy with my JAA. You gotta make decisions here.
Oh and compare apples with apples
On the one hand the guys are flying the jets
in Europe earlier because there are way more here
then back home in SA, plus there is a huge demand
here in europe at the moment.Easy and Ryan are both
looking for crew, the figures are frightening!(just to name 2 operators)
These guys have got to pass their type rating and that
is to a standard, doesn't matter if you got 200hrs or 2500hrs total
time.Seems that they have it easier, but its just normal progression here.
On the otherhand the SA market is way slower for some obvious
reasons,( i'm so over it), so you gotta go fly in the bush for
a few years! Blah blah blah!!! Thats why I am busy with my JAA. You gotta make decisions here.
Oh and compare apples with apples
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Why do they pop 200 hrs pilots into the RHS in JAR land - because they dont have any GA industry to speak of to generate pilots with real world experience. And why does it work? Because flying in JAR land is so highly regulated, controlled and automated that it becomes a fly by numbers routine - and the type ratings in general are a lot more thorough.
Having flown with a number of low time co-pilots in a contract environment, I can state with confidence that there is simply no substitute for experience. A co-pilot with no real world experience substantially increases the pressure on the captain, deviates his or her attention from managing the flight to monitoring and instructing the co-pilot, and in my opinion significantly reduces overall safety. The whole point of the second person in the cockpit is to increase safety and reduce the workload on the captain, not the opposite.
The fact that there are some DEs handing out seriously suspect type ratings does not help the whole situation.
Oh yeah - and please don't get me started on the low life scum who charge low time pilots to fly RHS on passenger carrying, revenue earning flights. As far as I am concerned this is criminal and should be prevented by regulation.
Having flown with a number of low time co-pilots in a contract environment, I can state with confidence that there is simply no substitute for experience. A co-pilot with no real world experience substantially increases the pressure on the captain, deviates his or her attention from managing the flight to monitoring and instructing the co-pilot, and in my opinion significantly reduces overall safety. The whole point of the second person in the cockpit is to increase safety and reduce the workload on the captain, not the opposite.
The fact that there are some DEs handing out seriously suspect type ratings does not help the whole situation.
Oh yeah - and please don't get me started on the low life scum who charge low time pilots to fly RHS on passenger carrying, revenue earning flights. As far as I am concerned this is criminal and should be prevented by regulation.
Last edited by Woof etc; 5th Nov 2006 at 21:56.
