Low Cost mentality!
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Low Cost mentality!
Just heard of a pilot being pressured by management to disembark and board as well as refuel with a engine running! The reason being a broken APU and no COPCO at the turnaround airfield. Apparently the captain of this flight is being called in to explain to management why he refused to do this... am I the only person who feels this is wrong and that management was risking lives in order to save a buck? Is this the way to operate a "REPUTABLE" airline?
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Stop
While I do agree this is a dangerous practise when there are passengers
I did, for a while fly a DC-8 freighter and the DC-8 doesn’t have an APU. If you had to divert to an airport that did not have an air starter, then one engine would be left running. This would allow a cross bleed start to be performed once refuelling had finished.
If you shut down the engine in error then another freighter would have to fly an air starter unit out to you before you could be on your way.
If the a/c in question (and you don’t specify) is a 737 then it would be a no no in my book as you have the fuel receptacle by the number 2 engine and pax passing the number 1 engine while disembarked and boarding.
If it was a 727 and the engines are up and out the way then it’s a different story completely. Boils down to safety.
If in doubt don’t is always a good motto.
While I do agree this is a dangerous practise when there are passengers
I did, for a while fly a DC-8 freighter and the DC-8 doesn’t have an APU. If you had to divert to an airport that did not have an air starter, then one engine would be left running. This would allow a cross bleed start to be performed once refuelling had finished.
If you shut down the engine in error then another freighter would have to fly an air starter unit out to you before you could be on your way.
If the a/c in question (and you don’t specify) is a 737 then it would be a no no in my book as you have the fuel receptacle by the number 2 engine and pax passing the number 1 engine while disembarked and boarding.
If it was a 727 and the engines are up and out the way then it’s a different story completely. Boils down to safety.
If in doubt don’t is always a good motto.
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We have had to do this with a CRJ before. You just need to plan ahead and have the area around the a/c secured.
Procedure is: Shut down #2 to disembark and unload luggage. Restart #2 and shut down #1 to refuel. Restart #1 and shut down #2 to embark and load luggage.
You must have safety guys at aircraft to secure area and fire brigade in attendance is a very good idea. Obviously pilots must be in cockpit and have comms with people outside.
We did not dispatch with u/s APU. It would not start on arrival.
Procedure is: Shut down #2 to disembark and unload luggage. Restart #2 and shut down #1 to refuel. Restart #1 and shut down #2 to embark and load luggage.
You must have safety guys at aircraft to secure area and fire brigade in attendance is a very good idea. Obviously pilots must be in cockpit and have comms with people outside.
We did not dispatch with u/s APU. It would not start on arrival.
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Nugpot,
I've also done the procedure you mention on the CRJ. It has since been banned by the company - that was after the Namibian CAA refused to allow the procedure to be carried out in WVB.
I agree with not dispatching an aircraft with an APU that is U/S to a destination that doesn't have a COPCO. Planning ahead is what is needed. However,it seems, that in your and my case the APU failed to start and the only option was to carry out this procedure. That is of course what we are paid to do, think ahead and make the operation work!
I've also done the procedure you mention on the CRJ. It has since been banned by the company - that was after the Namibian CAA refused to allow the procedure to be carried out in WVB.
I agree with not dispatching an aircraft with an APU that is U/S to a destination that doesn't have a COPCO. Planning ahead is what is needed. However,it seems, that in your and my case the APU failed to start and the only option was to carry out this procedure. That is of course what we are paid to do, think ahead and make the operation work!
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Low cost to ELS? Can only be 1 Time. They had a big delay in ELS just a few days agao due to no APU and Copco u.s. (I was one of the pax stranded. Capt. and cabin crew did an excellent job of keeping us informed). Obviously slow learners. My 2 cents worth. To dispatch out of your maintenance base with a known defect to an outstantion without much traffic an only relying on ground support equipment maintained by Equity and used once every 12 months is plain idiotic. To keep an engine running may be acceptable if the APU would not start after landing, that is a contingency plan and would justify alternate procedures. But doing so on a scheduled passenger flight as a normal procedure? Bit Mickey Mouse I would say. I know also that 1 Time does not have engineers in ELS and the pilots have to do the LTX, refuelling etc. (Is that legal for Part 121 Ops ?)SAFAIR is their but they are not utilized excepet in an emergency. Seems like the Captain in question made a very sensible and informed decision. He has obviously been around. Seems like desperate measures maybe? Pity though always seemed like a jacked crowd at 1 Time. Pilot's I've met a lot of super guys.
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that’s the problem- at some point you are going to have to make the investment- the classic LCC time bomb scenario.
For example you cant expect the call centre girls to sit on coke crates for ever sharing a telephone and a computer (err…hang on this isn’t Nationwide- ok they probably have a chair each and have a very nifty time sharing scheme going on the computer- Mr O and the lads are actually quite bright)- at some point the slavish drive to cut costs becomes a mill stone around your neck.
When you screw a supplier (and Im sure they have!!) like Equity, into providing ground handling at these smaller airports you can only expect them to carry such equipment as is necessary for them to support their anchor client – who has probably not had the need for this type of handling in a while. They are not about to invest their resources in keeping your business as they see it only as incremental.
My question is what happens to the cheap handling when SAA dumps Equity next year?
I’m reliably informed that their new business pitch is to offer a year’s free handling if an airline moves to them- perhaps the year is almost up???
Time to invest in your infrastructure
For example you cant expect the call centre girls to sit on coke crates for ever sharing a telephone and a computer (err…hang on this isn’t Nationwide- ok they probably have a chair each and have a very nifty time sharing scheme going on the computer- Mr O and the lads are actually quite bright)- at some point the slavish drive to cut costs becomes a mill stone around your neck.
When you screw a supplier (and Im sure they have!!) like Equity, into providing ground handling at these smaller airports you can only expect them to carry such equipment as is necessary for them to support their anchor client – who has probably not had the need for this type of handling in a while. They are not about to invest their resources in keeping your business as they see it only as incremental.
My question is what happens to the cheap handling when SAA dumps Equity next year?
I’m reliably informed that their new business pitch is to offer a year’s free handling if an airline moves to them- perhaps the year is almost up???Time to invest in your infrastructure
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Orgasmotron, I take it you have inside gen, seeing as you know that this was a 1Time ELS flight, without anyone else here mentioning details. No problem with that. I spoke to a mate who works for 1Time and he confirmed the details as you put them down.
Before I add my 2 cents worth (which I'm sure will attract some criticism!) let me point out that I do not work for 1Time
. I do not have any ill feelings towards them apart from the way they are treating professional pilots, of whom some are my friends. But, to continue...
To add to the poor skipper's dilemma, the aircraft had been carrying a u/s APU for several days. He was sitting in JNB with a full load of pax waiting for an air starter (no APU thus very hot and
bothered pax!) when he called ops to ask them what they wanted him to do about engine starting in ELS. That's when they came up with their bright idea! 
I fully agree with his decision not to dispatch under those circumstances and
applaud him for standing up to their management. You can guess whose license would have been pulled if something had gone wrong in ELS!
This is just another symptom of how these guys operate. They've taken the low cost model too far - no reserve aircraft, no spares stock, minimal maintenance and continuously pushing their air and ground crews to the FDP limits (sometimes even over the limit when they can bully or bribe certain individuals into it).
There's another thread on this forum voicing concerns over the fact that the SA low cost carriers are pushing their people too hard. 1Time sees most of their pilots doing 1000 hours a year, every year. Not bad if you're trying to get quick jet time, but, sooner or later something's got to give. Remember this is short haul flying which takes its toll on pilots doing 4 rotations a day, 23 days a month. They are so short of pilots that most days they don't have anyone on standby, but still refuse to employ more guys.
No wonder there's a whole bunch of guys leaving.
Why can't these guys learn a lesson from airlines that do things properly AND still make a profit? I guess it's just greed. Even the charter companies in SA are getting their act together .
1Time started off well but they've built a reputation for being unreliable due to operating on a shoestring.
Before I add my 2 cents worth (which I'm sure will attract some criticism!) let me point out that I do not work for 1Time
. I do not have any ill feelings towards them apart from the way they are treating professional pilots, of whom some are my friends. But, to continue...To add to the poor skipper's dilemma, the aircraft had been carrying a u/s APU for several days. He was sitting in JNB with a full load of pax waiting for an air starter (no APU thus very hot and
bothered pax!) when he called ops to ask them what they wanted him to do about engine starting in ELS. That's when they came up with their bright idea! I fully agree with his decision not to dispatch under those circumstances and
applaud him for standing up to their management. You can guess whose license would have been pulled if something had gone wrong in ELS!This is just another symptom of how these guys operate. They've taken the low cost model too far - no reserve aircraft, no spares stock, minimal maintenance and continuously pushing their air and ground crews to the FDP limits (sometimes even over the limit when they can bully or bribe certain individuals into it).
There's another thread on this forum voicing concerns over the fact that the SA low cost carriers are pushing their people too hard. 1Time sees most of their pilots doing 1000 hours a year, every year. Not bad if you're trying to get quick jet time, but, sooner or later something's got to give. Remember this is short haul flying which takes its toll on pilots doing 4 rotations a day, 23 days a month. They are so short of pilots that most days they don't have anyone on standby, but still refuse to employ more guys.
No wonder there's a whole bunch of guys leaving.Why can't these guys learn a lesson from airlines that do things properly AND still make a profit? I guess it's just greed. Even the charter companies in SA are getting their act together
.1Time started off well but they've built a reputation for being unreliable due to operating on a shoestring.
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To correct a few misconceptions. 1time plans its pilot headcount based on an average 825 flight hours a year. This standard has been achieved for the past two years. It is a well within FDP rules while still achieving low cost objectives. Numerous posts to Pprune support the notion that 1time does not underpay its pilots. Two of the airline owners are pilots and accordingly have a deep respect for the important role played by pilots in ensuring the success of the airline. No pilot would ever accept or countenance a management instruction on whether to go or not and no such instruction would be given
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FFFrentit. Yes, I do have some inside info due to the fact that 2 good mates flies fo 1 Time and I fly as a passenger with them often. Me personally flies little as possible when other oaks sleeps. They both have flown in excess of 950 hours for the preceding 12 months. They are tired and fedup with empty management promises. Seems like Coins lost his calculator's batteries. They are often pressurised to reduce rest on minimum rest pairings by using Captain's discretion. If you are not prepared to, well, you get called in for being obstructive. Their roster never gets published on time with many changes (I know, just try getting them around for a braai!). 4 Legs with only 1 crew meal is the order of the day. Bottom line, does not matter what Coins says, they are still tired and have logbooks to prove it! Pilot's have been told on many an occasion to leave if they don't like it, well fair enough, that's what they are doing now. It should make managment happy if all the unhappy crew leaves. Deskjocky and FFFrentir, you are 100% on the spot with your comments. This industry is small and people talk and it seems like 1 Time is a Nationwide with better salaries ! Paying a market related salary does not entitle managment to use crew beyond safe limits. So by the way, the SA FDP schemes are outdated and by targeting FDP limits only guarantees fatigued, unsafe and demoralized crew. Many an airline can have a look at Comair's way of looking after their crew and staff. Happy staff and they still makes a profit, even with providing crew meals, descent uniforms, a roster, descent time off and without charging crew for the jumpseat! I really hopes 1 Time's management wakes up and smells the roses. It has great potential if being managed correctly, and after all, crew are a great and expensive asset and should be managed accordingly. Well managed crews are motivated crews that will save you millions! Even Richard Branson has figured that one out! Good luck to the oaks there.
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Sorry for asking but are you sure there is no COPCO in EL, SAA fly there regularly they would require a COPCO just incase (I know so dont start....seeing as the poor old tax payer is paying) why could the crew not "borrow" the Copco from equity or whoever happens to own the thing? I seem to remember doing a Copco start not too long ago at EL it was an antique 1950's thing that belched smoke and made hell of a noise, but it worked, has it finally given up the ghost?
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Coins, I'm sure I met you once, before you got that management position at 1Time.
Every time I see my 1Time mates, the same topic of conversation comes up about their working conditions. They quote your words verbatim, when telling me what 1Time management's response is to their concerns.
How come the vast majority of 1Time pilots are doing 1000 hours a year. One or two of them must be really slacking off to get the average down!
Compare apples with apples. Remember that the 1Time guys get no medical aid, pension, loss of license insurance, thirteenth cheque, profit share, etc. Take these costs out of the salary and you'll probably find the 1Time pilot clearing the same as his Nationwide colleagues.
Then how could these owner-pilots even give their blessing to the APU skipper being called in? And this is not the first time this sort of thing has happened. From what I've heard, most of the 1Time captains have had their turn to stand on the red carpet (often in front of one of the owner-pilots!) and explain why their silly safety motivated decisions have cost the company money.
C'mon Coins - the secret's out. 1Time's modus operandi is well known in SA aviation.
The only secret to success for 1Time is to spend a bit of money on its operation and to look after their people.
(Oh! - and maybe get those APUs fixed!)
Every time I see my 1Time mates, the same topic of conversation comes up about their working conditions. They quote your words verbatim, when telling me what 1Time management's response is to their concerns.
1time plans its pilot headcount based on an average 825 flight hours a year. This standard has been achieved for the past two years.
Numerous posts to Pprune support the notion that 1time does not underpay its pilots.
Two of the airline owners are pilots and accordingly have a deep respect for the important role played by pilots in ensuring the success of the airline.
C'mon Coins - the secret's out. 1Time's modus operandi is well known in SA aviation.
The only secret to success for 1Time is to spend a bit of money on its operation and to look after their people.
(Oh! - and maybe get those APUs fixed!)
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Can somebody please find out what Coins is smoking? I want some!!! It obviously removes all concept of reality and makes everything around you look rosey! Maybe it can even make him believe the absolute twaddle thats gushing from his keyboard. WAKE UP Mr. Beancounter!!! It can't be that hard for even a non-flying person to see what's going on!!! Ever heard of a company called Air Alaska? Say no more........
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CJ750
As an outsider it seems all is not a bunch of roses at 1Time. I hear through the grape vine that management put pressure on the pilots/ Captains at the expense of the fare paying passengers and as mentioned in a previous reply the captains are then on the red carpet forlooking after the passengers concerns. Is this what we get for trying to help 1Time work and give SAA a kick up the exhaust. Also i belive the pax give the cabin staff so much grief about the ground service that there is a big turnover of hosties too. Why would 7 pilots resign in 1 day. WHAT IS HAPPENING THAT WE DO NOT KNOW ABOUT...................
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Just to add on to CJ750's comment....1Time apparently has a huge turnover of cabin crew - but not because they get a hard time from pax.
By the sounds of it the cabin crew are more abused than the pilots - this because a lot of them are new to the game, young and scared of their boss. I've heard of girls flying when they are sick
and booked off by their doctor, but the mangement has given them the choice of "fly or get fired". The cabin crew don't have a union, so the devide and rule tactics used by 1Time are really effective.
Seems like there's a deep layer of rust under 1Time's shiny red paintjob!!
By the sounds of it the cabin crew are more abused than the pilots - this because a lot of them are new to the game, young and scared of their boss. I've heard of girls flying when they are sick
and booked off by their doctor, but the mangement has given them the choice of "fly or get fired". The cabin crew don't have a union, so the devide and rule tactics used by 1Time are really effective.Seems like there's a deep layer of rust under 1Time's shiny red paintjob!!
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As far as cabin crew goes at 1 Time, I believe they are even worse off than the pilots. One of the ex 1 Time hosties joined our outfit. Asked why she left she said "Great people to work with, but just does not have a life without a roster, wearing bad quality second hand uniforms and getting threatened to fly when you are sick" Apparently they must first phone the cabin services manager before thay are allowed to call in sick. Maybe there is some truth in it or maybe a bit of sour grapes, who knows. Never the less, very bad hr situation and reputation building by the looks of things. Maybe some rust shining through the red after all. I hope they sort this stuff out for the sake of a falf descent aviation industry in this country.