SAA's a winner! not
Join Date: Feb 2005
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What a scary state of affairs! SAA management may now think it will save them money but it won't be long before the MPL wonder wants the same remuneration as the ATPL. Their bargaining tactics may well get a little tricky. Perhaps a read of Captain Carl Jensen's recent article in SA Flyer on the importance of a good First officer would persuade them to change course. This course though is heading for disaster and it is tantamount to a pilot incapacitation on every flight when it should normally never occur once in a pilot’s career.
Please announce the date of commencement, SAA, so that I can stop using your once superior outfit. I have just cut my platinum Card up. The travelling public will in all probability have their say as well - with their wallets. RIP
Please announce the date of commencement, SAA, so that I can stop using your once superior outfit. I have just cut my platinum Card up. The travelling public will in all probability have their say as well - with their wallets. RIP
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Goodbye and Goodluck
What a scary state of affairs! SAA management may now think it will save them money but it won't be long before the MPL wonder wants the same remuneration as the ATPL. Their bargaining tactics may well get a little tricky. Perhaps a read of Captain Carl Jensen's recent article in SA Flyer on the importance of a good First officer would persuade them to change course. This course though is heading for disaster and it is tantamount to a pilot incapacitation on every flight when it should normally never occur even once in a pilot’s career.
Please announce the date of commencement, SAA, so that I can stop using your once superior outfit. I have just torn my platinum Card up. The travelling public will in all probability have their say as well - with their wallets.RIP SAA
Please announce the date of commencement, SAA, so that I can stop using your once superior outfit. I have just torn my platinum Card up. The travelling public will in all probability have their say as well - with their wallets.RIP SAA
Join Date: Jul 2005
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I understand your frustration 3rdbogey but think of it - why is there a move worldwide to extend the retirement age? SAA was 58 then 60 and now 63.
Some countries in Europe and even the States I am told are about to extend it to 65. Most ME and far eastern airlines have a high percentage of western crew. With the rapid expansion of those airlines they simply dont have enough of their own pilots to crew their airlines. That's why this 70hour/simlator nonsense came about. It's NOT a South African inovation as someone has already pointed out.
What gets me is why SAA has to pay for the governments BEE drive. No wonder they cant make a profit. Why doesn't the goverment simply reinstitute the subsidy system like we had years ago? It worked very well.
Those deemed to be deserving had their training costs reimbursed when they achieved the qualification. The banks were happy to grant a loan on that basis. So the student had ample motivation. If he didn't pass then he was liable for repaying the loan. It's time the government picked up the tab for their PD pilots training and not rely on the airlines.
Some countries in Europe and even the States I am told are about to extend it to 65. Most ME and far eastern airlines have a high percentage of western crew. With the rapid expansion of those airlines they simply dont have enough of their own pilots to crew their airlines. That's why this 70hour/simlator nonsense came about. It's NOT a South African inovation as someone has already pointed out.
What gets me is why SAA has to pay for the governments BEE drive. No wonder they cant make a profit. Why doesn't the goverment simply reinstitute the subsidy system like we had years ago? It worked very well.
Those deemed to be deserving had their training costs reimbursed when they achieved the qualification. The banks were happy to grant a loan on that basis. So the student had ample motivation. If he didn't pass then he was liable for repaying the loan. It's time the government picked up the tab for their PD pilots training and not rely on the airlines.
Join Date: May 2005
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Seems Colin is really trying to be the next CEO- has he forgotten where he came from???
Aside form the insanity of this whole idea, I really don’t think its going to wash too well with SAA’s VERY ORGANISED flight deck union. Unlike the rest of the industry these guys have got their stuff together- they have the power and they will use it if they have to. IMHO this development is a direct threat to the longevity of everyone’s career and thus will be fought tooth and nail and I have no doubt that the pressure created will result in this insane plan being quietly shelved - and rightly so. Nuff said
Aside form the insanity of this whole idea, I really don’t think its going to wash too well with SAA’s VERY ORGANISED flight deck union. Unlike the rest of the industry these guys have got their stuff together- they have the power and they will use it if they have to. IMHO this development is a direct threat to the longevity of everyone’s career and thus will be fought tooth and nail and I have no doubt that the pressure created will result in this insane plan being quietly shelved - and rightly so. Nuff said
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Lets look at the reason for the so called shortage of pilots in S.A. - Racial recruitment. Well qualified pilots HAVE to leave the country as they are told “sorry, we need people of colour and females."
S.A.A. might not be the father of this scheme, but they sure want to use it for the wrong reasons. Maybe the country's who invented this scheme really could not find the numbers they were looking for at home, but come on S.A.A. ... if you are so short, when last have you employed , or even interviewed, a pale male over 35 ( not to mention 40 )with lots of experience, and yes , there is a queue of them waiting to join.
This is a political move, happens to suite the bean counters as well.
I had an e-mail from a friend who is in management at S.A.A. advising me to not use his flysaa address, as he won't be in the office much longer. His complaint, or rather insight, is that this is step one in a process. Management will try to keep all incidents involving M.P.L's from the public, and if they don't have a major incident in 5 years the Government will then push for more representative Captains, and guess who will be looking good for the job.
P.S. fluffy fan and gang, hope you have an upgrade date within the next 5 years.
S.A.A. might not be the father of this scheme, but they sure want to use it for the wrong reasons. Maybe the country's who invented this scheme really could not find the numbers they were looking for at home, but come on S.A.A. ... if you are so short, when last have you employed , or even interviewed, a pale male over 35 ( not to mention 40 )with lots of experience, and yes , there is a queue of them waiting to join.
This is a political move, happens to suite the bean counters as well.
I had an e-mail from a friend who is in management at S.A.A. advising me to not use his flysaa address, as he won't be in the office much longer. His complaint, or rather insight, is that this is step one in a process. Management will try to keep all incidents involving M.P.L's from the public, and if they don't have a major incident in 5 years the Government will then push for more representative Captains, and guess who will be looking good for the job.
P.S. fluffy fan and gang, hope you have an upgrade date within the next 5 years.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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M.P.L`s - my a**
Howzit guys !
I can not agree more with you okes - this sucks. i think that this is a major threat to everybody outside an everyone inside (crew) SAA.
It keeps us strugglers out of SAA and it will definately take away a serious amount of command upgrades away from the FO`s in SAA.
I have read the article on the internet and there ALPASA clearly states that they are totally against it.Good luck to the Cappies at SAA who suddenly will have to play instructors as well....
I can not agree more with you okes - this sucks. i think that this is a major threat to everybody outside an everyone inside (crew) SAA.
It keeps us strugglers out of SAA and it will definately take away a serious amount of command upgrades away from the FO`s in SAA.
I have read the article on the internet and there ALPASA clearly states that they are totally against it.Good luck to the Cappies at SAA who suddenly will have to play instructors as well....
Join Date: Jul 2005
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You've got a good point Beta Light. Wait until someone gives this idea to Manto Shabalala. The medical equivelant will be for PD prospective doctors to specialise in brain surgery before they qualify in medicine. No point in them studying all those years for something they'll never use - rather get them straight into the thick of things working on brains or orthopedics or whatever.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Well done SAA
Hi All, I'm back from detention, as early as June actually but I've been keeping a low profile. I couldn't resist replying on this thread. I'm glad I didn't start this one, perhaps that will save me from being chucked out of pprune this time around. Interesting to see that these topics do surface even though the so called politician has been gagged.
I think this sort of training is already taking place in France where the focus from the beginning is to train the pilot for a multi crew airline environment. It does make a lot of sense for airlines to save costs and for the students as they probably get indoctrinated in Airline Operating Procedures, Jet Engine Operations, Glass cockpits and the like. You at least do not have to deal with the unlearning. It certainly is the answer in this country and for SAA to be able to fast track transformation which has been steam driven thus far
Colin I salute you, keep up the good work
I think this sort of training is already taking place in France where the focus from the beginning is to train the pilot for a multi crew airline environment. It does make a lot of sense for airlines to save costs and for the students as they probably get indoctrinated in Airline Operating Procedures, Jet Engine Operations, Glass cockpits and the like. You at least do not have to deal with the unlearning. It certainly is the answer in this country and for SAA to be able to fast track transformation which has been steam driven thus far
Colin I salute you, keep up the good work
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Well Done SAA
Hi All, I’m back from solitary confinement, I believe back in June already but I’ve been keeping a low profile. As you would expect it would irresistible for me not to reply to this thread. I’m glad I didn’t start it, perhaps that will save me from marching orders or on second thought the fact that I’m on the other side of the fence will prompt HP’s ferocity and me back on the street.
I think the French are already dong this sort of training. It makes a lot of sense both financially and logistically. The student is geared toward the Multi Crew Airline Operational environment from the word go and therefore the training is focused.
There is very little unlearning to be done as there’s no steep transitions eg from piston to Jets. The fact of the matter is that Aviation has evolved, but the training methods have not kept up
So what’s the fuss about? This will certainly go a long way in fast tracking transformation which has been steam driven, something I’ve griped about in this forum, this country’s aviation sector needs it and yesterday.
Perhaps Comair can take a few pointers here, I believe they have been put on a shame list by the Department of Labour with regard to their Employment Equity disastrous performance.
So Thumbs up Colin and keep up the good work.
I think the French are already dong this sort of training. It makes a lot of sense both financially and logistically. The student is geared toward the Multi Crew Airline Operational environment from the word go and therefore the training is focused.
There is very little unlearning to be done as there’s no steep transitions eg from piston to Jets. The fact of the matter is that Aviation has evolved, but the training methods have not kept up
So what’s the fuss about? This will certainly go a long way in fast tracking transformation which has been steam driven, something I’ve griped about in this forum, this country’s aviation sector needs it and yesterday.
Perhaps Comair can take a few pointers here, I believe they have been put on a shame list by the Department of Labour with regard to their Employment Equity disastrous performance.
So Thumbs up Colin and keep up the good work.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Oohh!! The dreaded shame list!! The government should worry about THEM being on the International shame list as was discussed in Singapore this weekend.
But then you have to read the international newspapers to know about it. We can never publish that in our own newspapers now can we; I mean World Cup 2010 and all to think about.
Naughty Comair!!
But then you have to read the international newspapers to know about it. We can never publish that in our own newspapers now can we; I mean World Cup 2010 and all to think about.
Naughty Comair!!
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Sorry Rapport did touch on it, did not cover the full discusion, but close enough.
Sorry to the non Afrikaans speakers.
http://www.news24.com/Rapport/Sake-R...999602,00.html
Sorry to the non Afrikaans speakers.
http://www.news24.com/Rapport/Sake-R...999602,00.html
Join Date: Sep 2006
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AFRIVIATION just because you were booted off and now allowed to say your bit again, doesn't mean you have to act like you lost your brain when you were gone. or were you kicked off for saying really dumb things in the first place.
nice on brother, you can salute your mate colin and give him all the thumbs up you want, but you'll be on your own, let us know what that's like.
just think about what you are supproting for a second, only one second, because that's how long it takes the rest of the pilots in SA to realize it's not going to work.
come on man, wake up!!!!!!
nice on brother, you can salute your mate colin and give him all the thumbs up you want, but you'll be on your own, let us know what that's like.
just think about what you are supproting for a second, only one second, because that's how long it takes the rest of the pilots in SA to realize it's not going to work.
come on man, wake up!!!!!!
.........but like most South Africans I have a back up plan just incase, so not too worried.
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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I cant say that I agree with this MPL story.
It seems that this is a hot topic and won't be resolved
quickly. If they beat the union on this one, lets just hope
that SAA will be able to maintain their safety record. What are the chances
I for one don't flysaa and would never encourage anyone
that I know to do so either.
I think that everybody from the public (paying passenger public)
that I have spoken to, can't believe that this MPL story
can come to fruition, they are all shocked and say that if
it happens they won't fly with saa. Who knows what will happen?
It seems that this is a hot topic and won't be resolved
quickly. If they beat the union on this one, lets just hope
that SAA will be able to maintain their safety record. What are the chances
I for one don't flysaa and would never encourage anyone
that I know to do so either.
I think that everybody from the public (paying passenger public)
that I have spoken to, can't believe that this MPL story
can come to fruition, they are all shocked and say that if
it happens they won't fly with saa. Who knows what will happen?
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Why stop with pilots licences........I recon they should start a SA space programme, no testing of design required who needs all those insignificant steps it just slows things down and it must be racisit because its stopping people of colour becoming astronauts, just make the thing, strap some crew of acceptable racial type in the top and press lift off, problem solved.
Join Date: May 2006
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Absolute BS
This is a completely unsatisfactory and unworkable plan. It must rank as the number one dumb
s idea from the original factory of dumb s ideas!! So, a guy who paid his dues, paid his fee's, some of them from the school of hard knocks, earned his seniority, etc. must now continue to fly the aircraft on his own while some AA type snotty, who was not even affected by apartheid, because hey, guess what?!! THAT DIED 16 YEARS AGO!!.....Gets to sit in the right hand seat and look important, having all the fun and , if he sits there long enough (say 3-5years) he gets the LEFT seat, extra bars on his jacket and is lord over all he surveys!! This will spell the end for SAA and any other clowns who try this "brilliant idea". We need something else NOW before Branson steps in with "Virgin South Africa" as the new national carrier. This we dont need as, just like the current ruling party, he appears to be the great "man on a white horse" while he puts everybody in competition out of business. Incidentally, all the airlines in SA have study schemes, bursaries, plans, etc. for their employees, should any of them feel the need or want to study law, psychology and other such claptrap. Try getting a bursary for flight training out of one of them!
s idea from the original factory of dumb s ideas!! So, a guy who paid his dues, paid his fee's, some of them from the school of hard knocks, earned his seniority, etc. must now continue to fly the aircraft on his own while some AA type snotty, who was not even affected by apartheid, because hey, guess what?!! THAT DIED 16 YEARS AGO!!.....Gets to sit in the right hand seat and look important, having all the fun and , if he sits there long enough (say 3-5years) he gets the LEFT seat, extra bars on his jacket and is lord over all he surveys!! This will spell the end for SAA and any other clowns who try this "brilliant idea". We need something else NOW before Branson steps in with "Virgin South Africa" as the new national carrier. This we dont need as, just like the current ruling party, he appears to be the great "man on a white horse" while he puts everybody in competition out of business. Incidentally, all the airlines in SA have study schemes, bursaries, plans, etc. for their employees, should any of them feel the need or want to study law, psychology and other such claptrap. Try getting a bursary for flight training out of one of them!
IBTL
Join Date: Sep 2006
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nice one fluffyfan, i think the SA space program will be winner. heck, if we are going to be cutting out important training steps, lets not teach the space cadets how to land!!!
coz this MPL thing borders on that!!!
coz this MPL thing borders on that!!!