divinehover

SAA is an unproductive airline at the moment. Have a look at these figures. They are from the the airlines own web sites so they should be correct.

QUANTAS- 179 people per a/c
SAA- 229
KLM- 193
AIR FRANCE- 189
CATHAY- 161

As for the pilots been unproductive. What a load of crap. Can every stop with that line of thinking. SAA rosters it's pilots. The pilots don't roster themselves. As a A319 F/O I get rostered for between 65 and 75 hrs a month. They are also welcome to roster me to the max legal limit.

There are far to many people sitting in dark corner offices playing Solitier who were employed for all the wrong reasons. Even our CEO admitted he had to employ 2 people for every one job that needed to be filled.

George Tower

Morning all,
I notice a few of you guys getting rather tetchy. Everything I have said has been argued consistently from a free market point of view. I didn't want to become embroiled in individual details.
In theory at any rate you would think that given the market dominance enjoyed by the national carrier they would have been a runaway success but they haven't.
Sounds very free and fair.
There is a slight irony here because in the UK BA mainline consistently make profits but their regional ops are loss makers. In SA situation seems to be the opposite.

saywhat

Does SAA pay too much, or do the other airlines pay too little??

I believe that the latter is the case. We in South Africa are too keen to fly for free. I agree with you about the productivity, however, that is a function of management. Rostering could be a lot more productive, of that there is no doubt. At the end of the day, however, if I am to be employed as a professional, I expect to be paid as a professional. If the management of that company are incapable of rostering me to my full potential, they can take the pay cut, as that is THEIR job not mine. My job is to go to work with a smile on my face, do my work, and play golf when I can!!

fluffyfan

Well I believe a recent study, supported by SAA pilots Association and by SAA management showed that SAA pilots are paid 38% less than there counterparts in equivalent positions around the world.

You decide....."are SAA pilots being paid too much or the others too little"

SAA has some of the cheapest labour in the world, the problem does not lie with the salaries, the problem is too many salaries. It takes 10 people to do what 1 person does at Comair or Nationwide, and no matter what the performance of the management they will still get huge bonuses, and the government will still request flypasts and launch parties, the boss will still fly to work in a helicopter, however management will have you believe its the greedy pilots who are to blame, SAA management seems to have learned from its privatised conterparts around the world, blame someone else on the poor performance of your airlines, reduce the pilots salaries, claim bankruptcy get the pilots to hold any further pay increases but in the mean time still take home a bonus for cutting costs, lets think of some examples......911/SARS..........how many pilots recieved pay cuts or lost there jobs due to these reasons.

If ATNS paid there controllers more, maybe they would not all leave, maybe SA ATC would not be such a up with contractors from all over the world coming to help out while they frantically try to train more, there is a huge pilot shortage looming, China, the Middle East, Europe, all demanding experienced pilots (and ATC), if you dont pay salaries that compare with the rest of the world you are going to loose trained personel to people who do pay.

Solid Rust Twotter

Agreed. It's what I've been advocating all along. The relative handful of crews on the coalface have to generate enough revenue to support a horde of managers, secretaries and other hangers on, most of them irrelevant in the scheme of things while earning salaries for nothing more than turning up for work in the morning. This has already been admitted in that there are two people to service each job.

Add to this the propensity for helicopter flights, junketeering and impressive titles and associated salaries for minor officials and you have the recipe for a loss making enterprise.

I have no problem with the union negotiating and holding SAA to decent salaries for those who generate revenue, but I have a huge hangup with the uncontrolled spending and wastage of money by management in the fond belief and accompanying warm feeling in the trousers that the taxpayer will cough up the necessary filthy lucre to enable a top heavy management structure to continue their wasteful extravagance.

saywhat

Too many people advocate the demise of SAA in favour of privatisation. I stand firm in my belief that if SAA dies, we as South African pilots can say goodby to the possibility of flying big aeroplanes to overseas destinations. BA, KLM. AF, LUFTHANSA etc will dominate the market, not allowing any other operator to compete. If the government restricts access to other airlines in favour of SA operators, we are back to square one. (competition goes out the window)

If this does happen, then you can be assured that to fly from SA will be the same as flying from any other african destination. Financially unviable.

Be carefull of what you wish for, it might just happen!!!!

DIVESAILFLY

Strange this? The Thursday Business section painted a vastly different picture of SAX's profitability. Q4NVS/ZERO3L seems to have a problem with SAA pilots pay while blinding us with BS about SAX. Maybe They should consider the following: How much should you pay a Captain with 12 year service in SAX still only flying 50 pax at a time as compared to a 747 captain flying 6 times that many pax? Maybe he should only rightfully earn a 1/6? Or do you want to base it on years of service to the company? SAA captains generally have 12 - 13 years before becoming captains on 737's. Comair 3 - 4? So a 1/4 scale seems fair?

As for the LCC - the best business decision SAA can make is offer all the Comair/Kulula/Nationwide/1Time crews a well paid position, close down all these upstart companies and get on with monopolising airtravel in SA? After all a yearor two of tax payers money should be enough?

Fly safe - bitch less and life is great!!!
Especially at a great salary (+34% of course)

PS: To all the SAX/Comair/Kulula/Nationwide/1Time crews - only using you to illustrate a point, no bones to pick with you.

Q4NVS

Why be "Jealous" of something you already have..?

With regards to Business Journalism, why read that hogwash when you have the facts?

Must be the same journalist who wrote the article about Comair wanting to buy SAX in order to get their hands on their lucrative routes.

George Tower

I would not agree with you. If the African Union states would implement the Yamoussoukro Decision as they have all signed up to it, then you would see market forces meet the demands of travellers, and over the long term that means lower prices and more flights and economic growth......sorry I'm a stuck record I know but just couldn't let that one go.

Dessert Aviator

Has anyone any news on the soon to be launched SAA Low Cost, what type of A/C, salaries, where to appyl etc.

ghostrider42

From what i was told from someone senior.......

4 x 737-800's coming
seperate salary scale to SAA
Captains +-R600K
not sure FO's
Will prob be some retired captains coming out of retirement to fly

Also heard that SAA procuring upto 12 MD11's for the new SAA CARGO division
which means upto 80 crews needed so get those CV's rolling............... for the times may be a changing! All we need is a new CEO who see's the light!

beechbum

12 MD11's.....ummmm.......for SAA......ummm!!!
Now let me think for a minute......neh.... I don't think so!!!!

ghostrider42

Well they already have one on wet lease with a yank crew! more are on the way!

Desperate Wannabe

Yep
First MD11 already operating, and my mate in SAA technical, tells me the first 737 is ready to roll out the shop

beechbum

Yep I know the one is here operated by Gemini Air Cargo. But seeing the number 12 attached to MD11's seems to be a little too much. Oh well hope you're right!!! But will these extra 11 that are coming be wet leased or operated by SA crew?

saywhat

Not gonna happen. Don't get alol excited.

If SAA tech has a 737 freighter in their workshop at the moment being converted, it's not for SAA. They got approval a while ago to convert 737's to freighters.

The MD11 is on wet lease from the USA, another 12 - Yea right dream on....

SAA low cost. Not yet out of the stable, let alone in the starting blocks. My bet is that it will never happen. The whole concept must be approved by the competitions board. SAA is allready into the state coffer to the tune of hundreds of millions, I cant see the competitions board allowing the State to fund more.

The fact that there are allready ex captains employed by SAA to start the thing, is just the way things happen there. They have no clue. This is not a private money making institution, it's a civilian airforce. There is, never was , and most probably never will be an inclination to make a profit, irrespective of what is publically said.

If there was a need to make money, the SAA formation team would not exist (each time they fly millions are squandered for the egos of a few), non profit routes would be axed, pipe dreams like LCC's would be shelved. A CEO would stay for more than 3 years, and actually have a plan, I could go on for a long time...

fluffyfan

Apparently SAA cargo want SAA pilots to fly the MD11 freighter, for there own reasons, the current MD11 is on wet lease but will be crewed by SAA crew before Feb2008 or else scope clause is violated and bypass pay starts getting paid to SAA crew, but looks like the powers that be have agreed to the SAA pilots crewing the freighter so hopefully no problem.

As for low cost, saywhat you are probably right it will probably never happen, first of all how do you enter a saturated market (low cost) with the most expensive aircraft out there compared to your competitors, coupled with management that have never run a successfuly low cost anything before against competitors who are struggling to survive because its there jobs and lives not just some pipe dream, they have far more motivation to succeed than some fat cat on a pet project. Besides this low cost carrier will not be allowed to use anything of SAA's including staff, buildings, flight planning etc, or else the competition board will tear SAA another gaping hole.

Oh and one more thing..............please explain to the SAA share holders (government and various other individules ie some pilots and management) why in the name of good corporate governance, are you giving away market share to a competitor airline........I think the legal costs could be bigger than any so called profit they may make.

beechbum

Saywhat, thanks for the info. I thought 12 MD 11's was too good to be true. This is SAA not some Middle Eastern outfit who do have some sort of clue as to what they are doing. Well at least it got the hopes up for some. Back to the drawing board fellas................now where was that lease agreement for those A380's we wanted??? Must be around here somewhere???????

saywhat

I do believe in fairies, I do , I do !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The scope clause says that SAA can crew that aircraft with foreign crew to establish the route. How long does it take to entablish a route? Let me bet that it's the period of the contract.

I'll bet that the contract is for a wet lease for 24 months.

The a/c is USA registered, SAA crew can't crew it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SAAPA had their head so far up their own arse ensuring that the captains could stay untill 63, that this and many other things were allowed to be passed without too much resistance. I'll bet that in Feb 2007 there will be no change, besides for the new CEO............... Oh and the venue for the mass fly past of A340's 747-400's, 319's and 737-800's in formation.

Deskjocky

LCC is definitely going to fly, SAA’s schedule has been amended to exclude the 4 738’s already. As far as corporate governance is concerned this deal has been cleared all the way from the SAA Board- where all stakeholders are represented to the highest levels of government.

The fact that the new carrier will not use any SAA facility is one of its advantages- the new company will get to create its own culture free from the BS that goes on at Airways Park.

Furthermore SAA’s market share will not be cannibalised- the whole point of this exercise is to segment the market according to what the customer is prepared to pay- if you want “cheap and cheerful” then the new LCC will speak to that need. If you want a full service premium brand with all the associated benefits then fly on SAA mainline. After all how can you justify charging a customer- like a corporate, a higher price for all the extras when the person sitting next to him paid 50% less on the internet and gets the same service. The LCC will protect SAA’s premium revenue stream. In effect all the cheap seats currently being sold on flysaa.com will be transferred to the LCC.

The effect on mainline will not be as bad as you would expect for the following reasons:
1. There will be a small reduction in short haul capacity, although there will be none on the prime routes.
2. International feed traffic (currently suffering under the high load factors) will be given further pricing incentives- this together with increased feed from the STAR partners will fill a nice gap- and the revenue is in hard currency. This will have the knock on effect of drawing in more long haul traffic.

The LCC is going to compliment SAA's current operations in a big way and make a good profit in the process.