Qouta system and rating paying
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Qouta system and rating paying
Is there anybody out there that will agree with me that there too many pilots being pumped into Lion-country which is the South African aviation industry.It has occurred to me that in the past 3 years+- that every single person with an instructors rating that thinks he has average flying abilities is good enough to open a training school for pilots,not just your PPL level school but suddenly every clown can mould anyone with a vague idea of how to start a PA28 into becoming the ultimate pilot.
What has happened to the standard of pilots being fed to the lions since this has been the case.
I am of the opinion that there must be a governing body that evaluates the proposed school and clear it or not to do business.
There are too many pilots in SA and something should be done to regulate the amount being produced per annum.Why can't someone do market research and try and determine the amount needed per year that would be sufficient to saturate the market.If universities can have a maximum amount of students per year passing through then what makes flying Schools any different,anyone has his/her own right to do business but it must be controlled so that everyone can have a fair chance of making it out there.The market is flooded and there are too many newly qualified pilots looking for work,(they were also told don't be concerned about work you will end up in an Airline in no time by the training school,no doubt)
I think that if a quota system could be instituted that everything will work out for all once the balance between pilots leaving the industry and pilots entering it is found.Also there should be a registration system which works on a "first come first serve" basis with a cut-off date for registration.
The other huge problem that has reared it's head is the concept of buying your spot on some large jet just beacuase you have cash and not the skills/experience,what about jeopordizing the operation's safety because the crew is half,experienced captain with a 250hr Moneyman next to him that can't even fly a C210 out of a short dirt-strip AUW,hot-and-high conditions with 700 m to get airborne and clear some small Mopanie's at the end of it all,climb away without pranging it into the mountains surrounding the strip,like Epupa Falls in Namibia,not even the worst place there is to go out of.Anybody ever tried that maybe before moving on to the bigger stuff,it's called a foundation for your flying.But who cares about that hey,it's about the money anyway.
Luckily I know now who to fly with and who not,can't face the possibility of flying with an airline having a Snotnose co-pilot thinking he's the **** because he could pay and I could not.The appropriately qualified people with experience are the ones who must be sitting there,the ones who worked their way up the ladder of society,like it's been since the beginning of time.
Now those of you who did the rating with daddy's millions go and think about that.Do you have any idea how are frowned upon my most of the decent pilots in the industry,I would not be able to look anybody in the eyes after having bought my way in.You will also never know what it feels like to really fly,only how to observe,this is not towards those who have done it the right way.
This occurrence must be rooted out so that we can have a natural flow of pilots throughout the different industries
Some thoughts on my posting anyone?
Panthera
What has happened to the standard of pilots being fed to the lions since this has been the case.
I am of the opinion that there must be a governing body that evaluates the proposed school and clear it or not to do business.
There are too many pilots in SA and something should be done to regulate the amount being produced per annum.Why can't someone do market research and try and determine the amount needed per year that would be sufficient to saturate the market.If universities can have a maximum amount of students per year passing through then what makes flying Schools any different,anyone has his/her own right to do business but it must be controlled so that everyone can have a fair chance of making it out there.The market is flooded and there are too many newly qualified pilots looking for work,(they were also told don't be concerned about work you will end up in an Airline in no time by the training school,no doubt)
I think that if a quota system could be instituted that everything will work out for all once the balance between pilots leaving the industry and pilots entering it is found.Also there should be a registration system which works on a "first come first serve" basis with a cut-off date for registration.
The other huge problem that has reared it's head is the concept of buying your spot on some large jet just beacuase you have cash and not the skills/experience,what about jeopordizing the operation's safety because the crew is half,experienced captain with a 250hr Moneyman next to him that can't even fly a C210 out of a short dirt-strip AUW,hot-and-high conditions with 700 m to get airborne and clear some small Mopanie's at the end of it all,climb away without pranging it into the mountains surrounding the strip,like Epupa Falls in Namibia,not even the worst place there is to go out of.Anybody ever tried that maybe before moving on to the bigger stuff,it's called a foundation for your flying.But who cares about that hey,it's about the money anyway.
Luckily I know now who to fly with and who not,can't face the possibility of flying with an airline having a Snotnose co-pilot thinking he's the **** because he could pay and I could not.The appropriately qualified people with experience are the ones who must be sitting there,the ones who worked their way up the ladder of society,like it's been since the beginning of time.
Now those of you who did the rating with daddy's millions go and think about that.Do you have any idea how are frowned upon my most of the decent pilots in the industry,I would not be able to look anybody in the eyes after having bought my way in.You will also never know what it feels like to really fly,only how to observe,this is not towards those who have done it the right way.
This occurrence must be rooted out so that we can have a natural flow of pilots throughout the different industries
Some thoughts on my posting anyone?
Panthera
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Hey Parrot,seems like you think like a parrot,obviously you could not even consider the fact that I might be younger than you!You are probably "AUTOMATED" to make rather senseless remarks like you have proven to me in your reply so you are either young and stupid or you are old and still stupid!
If I'm correct in believing that you are a Moneyman you probably have no idea about handling "the Heat" as you say.What a Jock you are.Have you ever landed or taken off in your fancy jet that you probably paid to get onto if this should be your situation?
I have a good job thank you,I'm just thinking of the other poor bastards who have to tolerate this tendence that's killing off the good name and standards that once were known as The SA Aviation Industry.
But thanks for wasting my time with your latenight blabbering,think of something worthy to say and then we can talk again ok?
If I'm correct in believing that you are a Moneyman you probably have no idea about handling "the Heat" as you say.What a Jock you are.Have you ever landed or taken off in your fancy jet that you probably paid to get onto if this should be your situation?
I have a good job thank you,I'm just thinking of the other poor bastards who have to tolerate this tendence that's killing off the good name and standards that once were known as The SA Aviation Industry.
But thanks for wasting my time with your latenight blabbering,think of something worthy to say and then we can talk again ok?
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Comming On Too Strong!!!!
Panthera
Agree with your intent and the basis of your thread. It is obvious that you are passionate about your topic [b]but reality check[b/]. Business is business, you won't and can't stop an entity forming a business to train people to fly. The fact that you have written so much about this means you are probably losing sleep and in the end you are only winding yourself up.-CHILL OUT.
As for rich kids and flying, this will always happens and again there is not much anyone can do about it-CHILL OUT. I had an aircrew reunion last month with some buds and there was a 6 FT brunette at the table who was a pilot for an airline flying 73's, and was a girlfriend of one of the guys at the re-union. She had 300 hrs FW Piston when she applied and that was it. I wonder why she was employed (OBVIOUSLY HER VAST AVIATION EXPERIENCE)-Again rich kid with connections and a set of T- - S!
I started by working 4 jobs and paying for a career in GA, got jack of that quick, went back to Uni and then made the snap to become a Military pilot. Did this for a decade and now consult and contract on a as required basis-As a business man life is fiscally much better than simply being employed and driving for someone else. I have seen what you are talking about first hand many times, and YES it S- -TS me aswell, however move on before you become bitter.
I have no respect for anyone that buys themselves an endorsement or a job or uses leverage other than letting their hands and feet talk for themselvesthemselves. In the trade we call these folks punters and we all know there are player and there are punters.
My advice (IMHO) is move on further and better yourself and don't sweat the small stuff. Aviation like any organisation is full of good and bad-DON'T GIVE YOURSELF AN ULCER TRYING TO FIX THE BAD!!!!!!
Agree with your intent and the basis of your thread. It is obvious that you are passionate about your topic [b]but reality check[b/]. Business is business, you won't and can't stop an entity forming a business to train people to fly. The fact that you have written so much about this means you are probably losing sleep and in the end you are only winding yourself up.-CHILL OUT.
As for rich kids and flying, this will always happens and again there is not much anyone can do about it-CHILL OUT. I had an aircrew reunion last month with some buds and there was a 6 FT brunette at the table who was a pilot for an airline flying 73's, and was a girlfriend of one of the guys at the re-union. She had 300 hrs FW Piston when she applied and that was it. I wonder why she was employed (OBVIOUSLY HER VAST AVIATION EXPERIENCE)-Again rich kid with connections and a set of T- - S!
I started by working 4 jobs and paying for a career in GA, got jack of that quick, went back to Uni and then made the snap to become a Military pilot. Did this for a decade and now consult and contract on a as required basis-As a business man life is fiscally much better than simply being employed and driving for someone else. I have seen what you are talking about first hand many times, and YES it S- -TS me aswell, however move on before you become bitter.
I have no respect for anyone that buys themselves an endorsement or a job or uses leverage other than letting their hands and feet talk for themselvesthemselves. In the trade we call these folks punters and we all know there are player and there are punters.
My advice (IMHO) is move on further and better yourself and don't sweat the small stuff. Aviation like any organisation is full of good and bad-DON'T GIVE YOURSELF AN ULCER TRYING TO FIX THE BAD!!!!!!
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He's right. There are far, far too many pilots in SA, but correcting this imbalance can only be done through one of two ways, I believe:
1) Clear leadership from the SACAA. Doubtful.
2) Education of aspiring pilots: Not going to happen either, as the flight schools want to make a living too.
So, here you have a career where the only entry requirements are money, any fool can pass the exams, and people are continually being born 'who've always wanted to fly'. I was the same, as were many others of course. But this has created a very, very demanding market.
For me, it's come to the point where I will do anything to get out of contract flying. I have over 3000 hrs, yet seem unable to even secure an interview with a local airline. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be breaking down the chief pilots doors for the local airlines, but maybe I'm not forceful enough. I would VERY happily take out a second bond on my house to pay my way into a local airline. So, your 'Daddy's millions' comment is not necessarily true at all. It's the sheer desperation of somebody who wants to stay with his family. Caused, ultimately, by an industry flooded with workers, the root cause of many of our problems.
So, you may want to think twice when you next look at some of those co-jo's...maybe you'll see a guy like me, 3000 hrs +, sitting in the bliss of knowing he'll be seeing his wife again that same day. Fantastic.
1) Clear leadership from the SACAA. Doubtful.
2) Education of aspiring pilots: Not going to happen either, as the flight schools want to make a living too.
So, here you have a career where the only entry requirements are money, any fool can pass the exams, and people are continually being born 'who've always wanted to fly'. I was the same, as were many others of course. But this has created a very, very demanding market.
For me, it's come to the point where I will do anything to get out of contract flying. I have over 3000 hrs, yet seem unable to even secure an interview with a local airline. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be breaking down the chief pilots doors for the local airlines, but maybe I'm not forceful enough. I would VERY happily take out a second bond on my house to pay my way into a local airline. So, your 'Daddy's millions' comment is not necessarily true at all. It's the sheer desperation of somebody who wants to stay with his family. Caused, ultimately, by an industry flooded with workers, the root cause of many of our problems.
So, you may want to think twice when you next look at some of those co-jo's...maybe you'll see a guy like me, 3000 hrs +, sitting in the bliss of knowing he'll be seeing his wife again that same day. Fantastic.
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Thanks to "giveitsome" and "Skrike200" for your replies,I have considered what you have said and yes it's true,I must Chill Out,hard to do after never being able to voice an opinion on the subject considering the"cohesion" among the people in our fraternity.It is good to know that I'm not the only person feeling a grudge towrds what's been happening in our industry.
Regarding Skrike's opinion on paying for a rating,Skrike I understand completely if you had to pay to move on because of your family etc.but you have worked from the start to get 3000hrs so if I apply and you apply and you get it it's because you deserve it more than me because you have more experience than me.
So paying for it or getting it by applying and handing your CV in does not make a difference in your instance,it's the people that jump the fence that push us back down again which causes a piont where there is no progress in the middle.
On the Air Schools topic I'm just trying to get across that it should be similar to the Universities/Tech's in SA,you won't find let's say 5-8 Tech's in one City,it's regulated according to demand and need so I think the amount of Air SChools must also be regulated.
Does anybody have any suggestion on how to try and institute a system or something to curb the things that should be right,are there any affectice Bodies out there e.ge ALPA that look after the interests of the countries's pilots?I have not been in SA for more than 4months the past 5 years working on contract so have lost touch with what's going on.
Panthera
Regarding Skrike's opinion on paying for a rating,Skrike I understand completely if you had to pay to move on because of your family etc.but you have worked from the start to get 3000hrs so if I apply and you apply and you get it it's because you deserve it more than me because you have more experience than me.
So paying for it or getting it by applying and handing your CV in does not make a difference in your instance,it's the people that jump the fence that push us back down again which causes a piont where there is no progress in the middle.
On the Air Schools topic I'm just trying to get across that it should be similar to the Universities/Tech's in SA,you won't find let's say 5-8 Tech's in one City,it's regulated according to demand and need so I think the amount of Air SChools must also be regulated.
Does anybody have any suggestion on how to try and institute a system or something to curb the things that should be right,are there any affectice Bodies out there e.ge ALPA that look after the interests of the countries's pilots?I have not been in SA for more than 4months the past 5 years working on contract so have lost touch with what's going on.
Panthera
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Why don't you think this situation same way than cars. Most of the folks have driving license but not all of them want to be taxi or truck drivers as soon as they get they license.
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Kopeloi,none of us want to do the not so glamorous jobs first but that is how it works and alwas has,when you passed your driver's test you were probably very stoked to get it,but I'm sure that your dad did not borrow you his fancy car to go have fun somewhere the very day you got your license,he probaly let you drive the oldest most beat-up car that you owned or he bought you 'n relativley cheap "student" car unless you were one of the fortunate ones that could afford an expensive first car,he wanted you to first drive for a few months or a year or so to get the feel of driving,be able to assess a situation and react accordingly,just because you passed the test did not mean then you were M.Schumacher.
My point is that you have to get the experience first then go onto bigger aircraft,why do you think most comapnies,those that do it right)ask for your total time when you go and harass the Chief Pilot for a job,it's because you are a risk to their operation up to the point where the insurance companies think that you are experienced enough to not be a possible liaibility to them.
And that should be the same throughout the Aviation Industry,I believe putting a experinced Captain with a non-experienced co-pilot is lowering the standard of safety in our airspace and if the public flying with these carriers had to know who sits in-front and what they are capable off they would reel in surprise and feel deceived.
When you got your license to drive did you or your dad drive in peak Hour traffic?
My point is that you have to get the experience first then go onto bigger aircraft,why do you think most comapnies,those that do it right)ask for your total time when you go and harass the Chief Pilot for a job,it's because you are a risk to their operation up to the point where the insurance companies think that you are experienced enough to not be a possible liaibility to them.
And that should be the same throughout the Aviation Industry,I believe putting a experinced Captain with a non-experienced co-pilot is lowering the standard of safety in our airspace and if the public flying with these carriers had to know who sits in-front and what they are capable off they would reel in surprise and feel deceived.
When you got your license to drive did you or your dad drive in peak Hour traffic?
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I haven't posted on PPrune for ages but feel this topic deserves a comment.
The bottom line is one of supply and demand it is that simple. Generally there will always be more pilots than there are jobs. As someone just completing my CPL I know the odds are certainly not in my favour when it comes to getting a job but rather than complain about how unfair life is I'm going to use my initiative to further my career.
Points to ponder:
1. If Joe Bloggs decides he wants to be a pilot who has the right to deprive him of this opportunity. Whether he pays for it himself through hard graft or its via Daddy's millions it makes no difference. If a man (or woman) has a passion for flying I defy anyone or anything that prevents them from doing so. NB for the anally retentive amongst you I'm not advocating short cuts in training or people buying the answer to exam questions.
2. There appears to be an arrogance on the part of certain people that because they have more hours they automatically are owed a living from flying. To make broad sweeping statements (if not mentioned explicitly but by assumption) that newly qualified CPL holders cant do anything; think about this: In 1940 the United Kingdom couldn't get pilots into the air fast enough to fight the Germans. Lets get this right <100 hours 18 year old gets to fly a Spitfire with well over a 1000hp and yet some in the industry think that I'm too inexperienced to fly a Piper Seneca with my 200 hours.
Again I feel the need to stress don't think I'm advocating that we should be letting a 40hour PPL fly a 747, nor am I saying that experience doesn't count. Just see the other side of the coin. In the UK BA has for many years put into the right hand seat of their aircraft a good number of 200 hour CPL (frozen ATPL) holders and look at their safety record! We shouldn't judge a book by its cover and we should remember the quality of training is important.
3. Finally after getting my CPL I estimate that I will have spent about R200,000. No other profession (law/medicine/accountancy etc) demands this huge outlay upfront. The bottom line is that here in SA unless you fly for SAA you won't ever really make good money from being a pilot.
Bearing these facts in mind why is it then wrong on principal for me to buy a rating when I already have paid for my CPL? Surely this is a contradiction? It can't be right for a guy to pay for a com licence but wrong to buy a type rating, surely if its wrong to buy a type rating it must also be wrong to buy the licence?
The bottom line is one of supply and demand it is that simple. Generally there will always be more pilots than there are jobs. As someone just completing my CPL I know the odds are certainly not in my favour when it comes to getting a job but rather than complain about how unfair life is I'm going to use my initiative to further my career.
Points to ponder:
1. If Joe Bloggs decides he wants to be a pilot who has the right to deprive him of this opportunity. Whether he pays for it himself through hard graft or its via Daddy's millions it makes no difference. If a man (or woman) has a passion for flying I defy anyone or anything that prevents them from doing so. NB for the anally retentive amongst you I'm not advocating short cuts in training or people buying the answer to exam questions.
2. There appears to be an arrogance on the part of certain people that because they have more hours they automatically are owed a living from flying. To make broad sweeping statements (if not mentioned explicitly but by assumption) that newly qualified CPL holders cant do anything; think about this: In 1940 the United Kingdom couldn't get pilots into the air fast enough to fight the Germans. Lets get this right <100 hours 18 year old gets to fly a Spitfire with well over a 1000hp and yet some in the industry think that I'm too inexperienced to fly a Piper Seneca with my 200 hours.
Again I feel the need to stress don't think I'm advocating that we should be letting a 40hour PPL fly a 747, nor am I saying that experience doesn't count. Just see the other side of the coin. In the UK BA has for many years put into the right hand seat of their aircraft a good number of 200 hour CPL (frozen ATPL) holders and look at their safety record! We shouldn't judge a book by its cover and we should remember the quality of training is important.
3. Finally after getting my CPL I estimate that I will have spent about R200,000. No other profession (law/medicine/accountancy etc) demands this huge outlay upfront. The bottom line is that here in SA unless you fly for SAA you won't ever really make good money from being a pilot.
Bearing these facts in mind why is it then wrong on principal for me to buy a rating when I already have paid for my CPL? Surely this is a contradiction? It can't be right for a guy to pay for a com licence but wrong to buy a type rating, surely if its wrong to buy a type rating it must also be wrong to buy the licence?
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Panthera,
You asked for comment, I laid some bait.... you took it .......
.. hook, line, sinker, fishing rod and the whole trawler
This forum is fun ... is it not ??
I am sure you are a nice bloke and I hope I have helped you blow off a bit of stress
You asked for comment, I laid some bait.... you took it .......
.. hook, line, sinker, fishing rod and the whole trawler This forum is fun ... is it not ??
I am sure you are a nice bloke and I hope I have helped you blow off a bit of stress
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Panthera
Yeah?? I'm a copilot flying with idiots on the left hand seat, carrying them around! Lowering standards, please man. Obviously you are one of those who can't get a job because of your loud mouth, chill dude!
And that should be the same throughout the Aviation Industry,I believe putting a experinced Captain with a non-experienced co-pilot is lowering the standard of safety in our airspace and if the public flying with these carriers had to know who sits in-front and what they are capable off they would reel in surprise and feel deceived.
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panthera...try reading the forum 'jobs, interviews and sponsorship' in the 'wannabees' section.
paying for ratings has become the standard in getting a job in europe for the last 3 or so years...
does south africa follow what happens in europe....lets see...?
who seem to be the most succesfull operators in sa at present...
one time, kulula, com air
com air is linked to ba, so thats that, the other 2 are low cost/budget airlines, and they are what took the market in europe by storm 3 years or so ago...and they are the champions of making people pay for their own ratings...
can you see where this is going...i do not think it will be long before it is standard practice in sa either, look at nationwide, they are already proving that people are prepared to pay!
and as for your comment about the 200 hour guy, he is as qualified as the next cpl holder, yes he lacks experience, but rememeber, he passed flight tests to the same standard as what you had to, so essentialy you are equally as qualified, except, you have more experience, and he has none, through no fault of his own except that he is starting out, which is where you once were.
and for your comments about short, hot and high, mauw take offs, if the afm/performance graphs say the plane can do it, then it can, if you are hinting it was your skill because you were outside the envelope, then what does that say about you and your moral high ground?
who are you to judge how someone gets a job...one could say a guy bombing around in a 210 in the delta doing whatever they want doesnt deserves to be in an airline either, or an instructor who goes round and round the circuit?
paying for ratings has become the standard in getting a job in europe for the last 3 or so years...
does south africa follow what happens in europe....lets see...?
who seem to be the most succesfull operators in sa at present...
one time, kulula, com air
com air is linked to ba, so thats that, the other 2 are low cost/budget airlines, and they are what took the market in europe by storm 3 years or so ago...and they are the champions of making people pay for their own ratings...
can you see where this is going...i do not think it will be long before it is standard practice in sa either, look at nationwide, they are already proving that people are prepared to pay!
and as for your comment about the 200 hour guy, he is as qualified as the next cpl holder, yes he lacks experience, but rememeber, he passed flight tests to the same standard as what you had to, so essentialy you are equally as qualified, except, you have more experience, and he has none, through no fault of his own except that he is starting out, which is where you once were.
and for your comments about short, hot and high, mauw take offs, if the afm/performance graphs say the plane can do it, then it can, if you are hinting it was your skill because you were outside the envelope, then what does that say about you and your moral high ground?
who are you to judge how someone gets a job...one could say a guy bombing around in a 210 in the delta doing whatever they want doesnt deserves to be in an airline either, or an instructor who goes round and round the circuit?
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Panthera,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your ideal world, all the poor bastards out there would have all the good jobs, conversely, all the rich morons would spend all their money (without jobs), making them poor. This would enable them to get a job from one of the poor bastards who would have by now become rich. Sounds all too confusing for me.
Flying is no different from any other career, supply and demand. For those pilots who don't have jobs, the only advice I can give is go to airports and look for one. Employers will not phone you at home. Try not to become dispondent, as opportunity comes when you least expect it.
All young people out there - learn to fly, get your Com. I CAN ASSURE YOU IT IS A FANTASTIC WAY TO SPEND YOUR LIFE!!!!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your ideal world, all the poor bastards out there would have all the good jobs, conversely, all the rich morons would spend all their money (without jobs), making them poor. This would enable them to get a job from one of the poor bastards who would have by now become rich. Sounds all too confusing for me.
Flying is no different from any other career, supply and demand. For those pilots who don't have jobs, the only advice I can give is go to airports and look for one. Employers will not phone you at home. Try not to become dispondent, as opportunity comes when you least expect it.
All young people out there - learn to fly, get your Com. I CAN ASSURE YOU IT IS A FANTASTIC WAY TO SPEND YOUR LIFE!!!!!
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Haven't posted on this forum in ages myself... bu thought I'd give it a go.
Just out of interest.... would it not be better to put a guy with little experience in a nice comfy cockpit of a nice big aerie with lots of power next to an expierenced captain who's seen it all before than putting the same guy in command of a 210 in harsh and difficult conditions doing the real flying having to miss the mopanies??
I would think that this is maybe a little more difficult than sitting up front in the Jet? This way the chap with little experience will be able to learn from the experienced captain. If something was to happen there would be two of you on board to handle the situation.
And then just to add to a point made earlier...... I was on my ground school course for my JAA Frozen ATP and some of the guys on course with me already had jobs waiting for them with Thomas Cook, EasyJet and My Travel. This before even passing the ground exams.... never mind 200 hours. Most of the guys on that course with me now have various jobs on various different jets.
Actually.... you'd be hard pressed to find anyone over here working on a 210 as a first job.
Now.... before everyone starts screaming and shouting that Africa is not the UK.... I know that. I understand that the situation in Africa is different. But if it happens here.... I don't know why it can't happen there!!!
Just my 2c
Stassiebal
Just out of interest.... would it not be better to put a guy with little experience in a nice comfy cockpit of a nice big aerie with lots of power next to an expierenced captain who's seen it all before than putting the same guy in command of a 210 in harsh and difficult conditions doing the real flying having to miss the mopanies??
I would think that this is maybe a little more difficult than sitting up front in the Jet? This way the chap with little experience will be able to learn from the experienced captain. If something was to happen there would be two of you on board to handle the situation.
And then just to add to a point made earlier...... I was on my ground school course for my JAA Frozen ATP and some of the guys on course with me already had jobs waiting for them with Thomas Cook, EasyJet and My Travel. This before even passing the ground exams.... never mind 200 hours. Most of the guys on that course with me now have various jobs on various different jets.
Actually.... you'd be hard pressed to find anyone over here working on a 210 as a first job.
Now.... before everyone starts screaming and shouting that Africa is not the UK.... I know that. I understand that the situation in Africa is different. But if it happens here.... I don't know why it can't happen there!!!
Just my 2c
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Again, I think Panthera has a point, and some people are being unnecessarily hard on him about paying for ratings. I can definately understand his frustration, which I have shared.
I really believe that the root cause of this is just too many pilots. You are feeling the symptoms of that. What has been said regarding the limitations of numbers of students in flight schools is a valid point, but will never be accepted by flight schools, who can't be denied their 'bread and butter'. I have personally instructed for over 1500 hrs (far more demanding than 'flying round and round in the circuit', for the many who are unfamiliar with instruction), and denying the instructors their experience would also be unfair.
I also know that it is not necessarily fair to deny anyone their chance to become a professional pilot, BUT consider other industries. Many proffesional careers have limitations of numbers. CA's, lawyers, engineers, doctors etc all have to pass 'bar' or review board sessions by senior members for progression to the higher levels, and these deliberately keep the numbers in those industries under control, to protect the industry. I believe it is important that the industry finds a balance in protecting the careers of those already involved, and allowing new people to become part of it. That is what many of these industry organisations are for. In aviation, nobody fulfils this function.
Further studies, and normally the initial courses themselves, are also often seriously restricted in terms of numbers. A family member of mine has just been accepted for a fairly prestigious Masters in Professional Management, a course which is restricted to just fifty applicants per year, no matter what. AND, they will go below that number if there are not enough applicants who meet the fairly demanding entry requirements. (That number is obviously not valid for pilots, I was just using it as an example) No such system exists in aviation, where just about anybody can go through with the whole thing if they have enough money.
I understand (subject to correction as usual) that the Indian CAA restricts the number of CPL's that can be passed per year. I believe that is a valid response to this kind of thing, if done correctly. Another idea would be a review board for progression to ATP, composed of senior members of different sectors of the industry. I know many would disagree, but thats just my opinion.
Whatever the case, I agree that there are too many pilots. I also believe the situation is more serious than some here would care to admit, and threatens the ability of many to progress. I would welcome comments from some senior people on this matter. Bear in mind the view from the top is not quite what we on the bottom are seeing!
I really believe that the root cause of this is just too many pilots. You are feeling the symptoms of that. What has been said regarding the limitations of numbers of students in flight schools is a valid point, but will never be accepted by flight schools, who can't be denied their 'bread and butter'. I have personally instructed for over 1500 hrs (far more demanding than 'flying round and round in the circuit', for the many who are unfamiliar with instruction), and denying the instructors their experience would also be unfair.
I also know that it is not necessarily fair to deny anyone their chance to become a professional pilot, BUT consider other industries. Many proffesional careers have limitations of numbers. CA's, lawyers, engineers, doctors etc all have to pass 'bar' or review board sessions by senior members for progression to the higher levels, and these deliberately keep the numbers in those industries under control, to protect the industry. I believe it is important that the industry finds a balance in protecting the careers of those already involved, and allowing new people to become part of it. That is what many of these industry organisations are for. In aviation, nobody fulfils this function.
Further studies, and normally the initial courses themselves, are also often seriously restricted in terms of numbers. A family member of mine has just been accepted for a fairly prestigious Masters in Professional Management, a course which is restricted to just fifty applicants per year, no matter what. AND, they will go below that number if there are not enough applicants who meet the fairly demanding entry requirements. (That number is obviously not valid for pilots, I was just using it as an example) No such system exists in aviation, where just about anybody can go through with the whole thing if they have enough money.
I understand (subject to correction as usual) that the Indian CAA restricts the number of CPL's that can be passed per year. I believe that is a valid response to this kind of thing, if done correctly. Another idea would be a review board for progression to ATP, composed of senior members of different sectors of the industry. I know many would disagree, but thats just my opinion.
Whatever the case, I agree that there are too many pilots. I also believe the situation is more serious than some here would care to admit, and threatens the ability of many to progress. I would welcome comments from some senior people on this matter. Bear in mind the view from the top is not quite what we on the bottom are seeing!
Last edited by Shrike200; 2nd Jul 2005 at 07:08.
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Thanks for everyone's replies, though some others must calm down instead of me rather.
I never said that I'm trying to shoot any newly qualified pilot down that is so good after leaving air school that he/she can actually nail it in a biggish jet.I never said that these people can't fly and yes I was once like that,all I'm suggesting is that these people would be better off later in their careers after having done "hands-on" flying for a period of time before flying something more advanced.
Those of us who have gone that route will remember how highly intimidating that first passenger flight in the small single piston was,people higher up in the ranks who managed to make it there without having done "bush" flying tend to look down at these pilots for I don't know what reason.It helps you to get to know yourself as a pilot an teaches you certain skills that you would not have had should blaze it straight onto an airliner.
Also remember that in SA,at least as far as my knowledge goes,the guys paying for ratings just fly enough on the Sim.to receive the rating,they can't nececcarily(spelling?) fly a 737 after that.Someone I know is flying for a BA affiliation and they sign a trainingbond and receive in the region of 65 hours Sim.training before going online,that sounds more than anybody can afford upfront to me,the "Countrywide" airline apparently let some guys come over for interviews ask them if they are willing to pay for the rating and the one with his ATPL LICENSE said no,the other guy with 700 hours said yes,guess who they took?The 700 hours guy!What does this tell you people?They don't care about who they take as long as he is willing to pay.It's not right.
Let's imagine this whole thing stops now,what will happen?The airlines will have to start doing it the conventional way again,choosing guys who fit the profile,they will have no other choice but to do so.And you'save youself 200G's,The new guys will have to walk the hard road for say 3 years,learn how to really fly and move on to the next step,like everybody else has.
When we were at school we could not pay to go from gr.8 to gr.12,you had to work for it to pass and be ready to go to the next grade,I think this is a fair comparison.
And for those who think that "bush" flying is crap,you are missing out on some of the best times of your life,the flying,the people you meet,places that you go etc. Is there any support on this for me?I miss that a lot and would I never exchange those years for anything.I honestly recommend any young pilot to take the opportunity should it come your way,the money is not always that great but you get hours and a solid foundation to stand on for progressing after that.This is not to better my argument it's just a pure and honest suggestion from me.
I appreciate the comments from those abroad but I think rather just stirr your own pot,we don't need more people stirring our own,the "pap" is already too thick.
For the person that said I can't find a job?I actually fly for a company who employs 12 000 people,sorry if I burst your bubble my "Brotha".
By the way be glad that you were'nt flying a Spitfire because you probably would have died within 6 weeks of graduating,most of the aircraft lost were due to crashes on landing because the guys did not have the experience to fly these planes.Enjoy.
Just an afterthought.For those who do actually have the mentallity to support the paying for a rating,think about this: How would you feel if you were a patient at a hospital and you have to go in for an operation,let\'s say a heart transplant,and the guy who is going to remove your heart and replace it with a more functional one paid the hospital to get a job there and they took him instead of someone equivelant to Chris Barnard.
Rather scary thought.
I never said that I'm trying to shoot any newly qualified pilot down that is so good after leaving air school that he/she can actually nail it in a biggish jet.I never said that these people can't fly and yes I was once like that,all I'm suggesting is that these people would be better off later in their careers after having done "hands-on" flying for a period of time before flying something more advanced.
Those of us who have gone that route will remember how highly intimidating that first passenger flight in the small single piston was,people higher up in the ranks who managed to make it there without having done "bush" flying tend to look down at these pilots for I don't know what reason.It helps you to get to know yourself as a pilot an teaches you certain skills that you would not have had should blaze it straight onto an airliner.
Also remember that in SA,at least as far as my knowledge goes,the guys paying for ratings just fly enough on the Sim.to receive the rating,they can't nececcarily(spelling?) fly a 737 after that.Someone I know is flying for a BA affiliation and they sign a trainingbond and receive in the region of 65 hours Sim.training before going online,that sounds more than anybody can afford upfront to me,the "Countrywide" airline apparently let some guys come over for interviews ask them if they are willing to pay for the rating and the one with his ATPL LICENSE said no,the other guy with 700 hours said yes,guess who they took?The 700 hours guy!What does this tell you people?They don't care about who they take as long as he is willing to pay.It's not right.
Let's imagine this whole thing stops now,what will happen?The airlines will have to start doing it the conventional way again,choosing guys who fit the profile,they will have no other choice but to do so.And you'save youself 200G's,The new guys will have to walk the hard road for say 3 years,learn how to really fly and move on to the next step,like everybody else has.
When we were at school we could not pay to go from gr.8 to gr.12,you had to work for it to pass and be ready to go to the next grade,I think this is a fair comparison.
And for those who think that "bush" flying is crap,you are missing out on some of the best times of your life,the flying,the people you meet,places that you go etc. Is there any support on this for me?I miss that a lot and would I never exchange those years for anything.I honestly recommend any young pilot to take the opportunity should it come your way,the money is not always that great but you get hours and a solid foundation to stand on for progressing after that.This is not to better my argument it's just a pure and honest suggestion from me.
I appreciate the comments from those abroad but I think rather just stirr your own pot,we don't need more people stirring our own,the "pap" is already too thick.
For the person that said I can't find a job?I actually fly for a company who employs 12 000 people,sorry if I burst your bubble my "Brotha".
By the way be glad that you were'nt flying a Spitfire because you probably would have died within 6 weeks of graduating,most of the aircraft lost were due to crashes on landing because the guys did not have the experience to fly these planes.Enjoy.
Just an afterthought.For those who do actually have the mentallity to support the paying for a rating,think about this: How would you feel if you were a patient at a hospital and you have to go in for an operation,let\'s say a heart transplant,and the guy who is going to remove your heart and replace it with a more functional one paid the hospital to get a job there and they took him instead of someone equivelant to Chris Barnard.
Rather scary thought.
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panthera, i understand what you are saying, but i think you think because you have done some 'bush' flying, you have served some form of apprenticeship and are therefore better prepared to go onto a larger, more complicated plane- 737 320.
why do you think so?
in the uk, the airlines/low cost carriers take people with 250 hours because they can mould them into the airline type flying mould they want, which after 2000 hours in general aviation is harder for them to break the bad habits and mentality you may have formed.
also, if you want to fly jets in an airline, does it not make more sense to head straight for that line and start young, do all your p2 time, and become a captain by 25 years of age?
-quote:
I appreciate the comments from those abroad but I think rather just stirr your own pot,we don't need more people stirring our own,the "pap" is already too thick
i question it myself, after having flown in YOUR part of the world for 5 years and , so i feel qualified to talk about it, should i have perhaps paid for a rating straight after finishing my training and gone to a low cost carrier and skipped the general aviation bit altogether...
my friend from ground school, got into ryan air with 250 hours, after a year, he has 900 hours on a 737, after 3 he is a captain and then he is in virgin or ba within 5 years of gaining his licence....by now he has paid back/worked off that type rating loan, and he is laughing...meanhile, i spent 3 years in the drc, 2 and a bit in algeria....wonderful places, great bars, resteraunts, and people...NOT, and 2000 hours turbo-prop time.
who took the best route?
it does not matter about the morality of paying for a rating, people who are R150,000 in debt from their training might aswell get another debt, ie. tyoe rating which makes them employable and then they can at least start to pay it back, otherwise, they sit with every other cpl with 250 hours, enemployed!
people do what they have to do, and if you are lucky enough to be able to get the money for a type rating, do it!
why do you think so?
in the uk, the airlines/low cost carriers take people with 250 hours because they can mould them into the airline type flying mould they want, which after 2000 hours in general aviation is harder for them to break the bad habits and mentality you may have formed.
also, if you want to fly jets in an airline, does it not make more sense to head straight for that line and start young, do all your p2 time, and become a captain by 25 years of age?
-quote:
I appreciate the comments from those abroad but I think rather just stirr your own pot,we don't need more people stirring our own,the "pap" is already too thick
i question it myself, after having flown in YOUR part of the world for 5 years and , so i feel qualified to talk about it, should i have perhaps paid for a rating straight after finishing my training and gone to a low cost carrier and skipped the general aviation bit altogether...
my friend from ground school, got into ryan air with 250 hours, after a year, he has 900 hours on a 737, after 3 he is a captain and then he is in virgin or ba within 5 years of gaining his licence....by now he has paid back/worked off that type rating loan, and he is laughing...meanhile, i spent 3 years in the drc, 2 and a bit in algeria....wonderful places, great bars, resteraunts, and people...NOT, and 2000 hours turbo-prop time.
who took the best route?
it does not matter about the morality of paying for a rating, people who are R150,000 in debt from their training might aswell get another debt, ie. tyoe rating which makes them employable and then they can at least start to pay it back, otherwise, they sit with every other cpl with 250 hours, enemployed!
people do what they have to do, and if you are lucky enough to be able to get the money for a type rating, do it!
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I have flown with many pilots, as I'm sure most of all you all have too. I can honestly say that there is no correlation whatsoever, as to where a person got their experience from, and how they perform in a cockpit. It's all in the attitude (not the AH).
Lets say that the industry does get regulated (wrt numbers), who gets to play God and decide who is good enough to join our little club, and who can't. Sorry it's just another stupid idea, concocted by another little demigod who thinks that piloting aircraft is another form of advanced heat surgery.
Let the world turn, and lets not make life any more difficult than it is. Remember that it was new rules and regulations that force a new pilot to do CRM & Emergency training annually. How much does this cost the poor bugger looking for a job. For goodness sake, if you passed your conversion, surely after a year you can still find and open a door, and discharge a fire extinguisher. If you can't, perhaps a new career is needed more than SEPT & CRM.
Wrt paying for jobs. Personally, I think it is morraly wrong for companies to adopt this approach. However, it is happening and not much can be done about it.
Lets say that the industry does get regulated (wrt numbers), who gets to play God and decide who is good enough to join our little club, and who can't. Sorry it's just another stupid idea, concocted by another little demigod who thinks that piloting aircraft is another form of advanced heat surgery.
Let the world turn, and lets not make life any more difficult than it is. Remember that it was new rules and regulations that force a new pilot to do CRM & Emergency training annually. How much does this cost the poor bugger looking for a job. For goodness sake, if you passed your conversion, surely after a year you can still find and open a door, and discharge a fire extinguisher. If you can't, perhaps a new career is needed more than SEPT & CRM.
Wrt paying for jobs. Personally, I think it is morraly wrong for companies to adopt this approach. However, it is happening and not much can be done about it.
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I think this is an argument that has been raging for a while now... but here's what think.
About paying for your own ratings: that's plain bullsh!t (excuse the french)
About airschools pumping out pilots:
I think this is a very touchy subject but I truly believe that no man has the right to stop someone from doing what they have a passion for. I do however think that with the commercialisation of aviation nowadays you get people who are drawn in on the promise of "seeing the world" and "you're gonna be rich". Both of which are not necesarilly true.
I won't lie, I and I'm sure alot of other pilot's do fly for "the money" in a sense but it is after all out jobs, but I also have a great passion for flying.
I fear the aviation has been transformed from a passion to a money making craze!
About paying for your own ratings: that's plain bullsh!t (excuse the french)
About airschools pumping out pilots:
I think this is a very touchy subject but I truly believe that no man has the right to stop someone from doing what they have a passion for. I do however think that with the commercialisation of aviation nowadays you get people who are drawn in on the promise of "seeing the world" and "you're gonna be rich". Both of which are not necesarilly true.
I won't lie, I and I'm sure alot of other pilot's do fly for "the money" in a sense but it is after all out jobs, but I also have a great passion for flying.
I fear the aviation has been transformed from a passion to a money making craze!