Not only are ATC blameless, they get a "good show" for asking the captain. His decision.
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It is ATC's responsibility to deny the take off if no plane ever before took off from such a short distance(especially because he obviously didn't follow instructions to enter D6). You have thousands of airliners taking off from >2 km distance and then all of a sudden there is one trying to take off with only 1.3km left, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to conclude that something is way off.
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Originally Posted by AreOut
(Post 11599951)
It is ATC's responsibility to deny the take off if no plane ever before took off from such a short distance(especially because he obviously didn't follow instructions to enter D6). You have thousands of airliners taking off from >2 km distance and then all of a sudden there is one trying to take off with only 1.3km left, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to conclude that something is way off.
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I don't have any agenda. I think pilots are absolutely and ultimately responsible (it seems FO was the PIC) and they should have also landed immediately without burning fuel (pure luck the wings/hydraulics were still operational after almost one hour airborne after hitting ground stuff) but the ATC should have reacted differently and send them back to where they originally were nstructed to be.
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Can you not read? Ultimately it is NOT ATC's responsibility. Confirmed above by Herod who we regulars on here know is a retired commercial pilot. The crew should be aware of where they are. They were given more than adequate warning. End of.
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OK we are waiting ATC's here to say if they would or would not deny the takeoff if the pilot wants to perform it from the half of standard take off length.
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Originally Posted by AreOut
(Post 11599951)
It is ATC's responsibility to deny the take off if no plane ever before took off from such a short distance.
@DaveReidUK Originally Posted by ATC Watcher And where did you get this info about " wrong intersection " ? That much is clear from the ADS-B track. |
Originally Posted by AreOut
(Post 11599965)
I don't have any agenda. I think pilots are absolutely and ultimately responsible (it seems FO was the PIC) and they should have also landed immediately without burning fuel (pure luck the wings/hydraulics were still operational after almost one hour airborne after hitting ground stuff) but the ATC should have reacted differently and send them back to where they originally were nstructed to be.
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ATC is responsible to see that something is way off, maybe the plane is hijacked, maybe the pilot is drugged or what not.
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Did the crew specifically request D5 or did they make the wrong turn into D5?
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Plowing the fields?
I would like to see pictures of the track of the aircraft on the ground. They finally had a positive rate of climb when they crossed the Autobahn at 50', and that is ~1500m past the end of the threshold. Very lucky to have got airborne :uhoh:
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....64e1500c70.jpg |
Originally Posted by AreOut
(Post 11599965)
I don't have any agenda. I think pilots are absolutely and ultimately responsible (it seems FO was the PIC) and they should have also landed immediately without burning fuel (pure luck the wings/hydraulics were still operational after almost one hour airborne after hitting ground stuff) but the ATC should have reacted differently and send them back to where they originally were nstructed to be.
As far as earlier comments about the aircraft built like a tank the runway lights are designed to be frangible to minimize damage if hit. |
"The FO is never the PIC,"
that's right, I mixed this with another report |
Originally Posted by FiveGirlKit
(Post 11600051)
I would like to see pictures of the track of the aircraft on the ground. They finally had a positive rate of climb when they crossed the Autobahn at 50', and that is ~1500m past the end of the threshold. Very lucky to have got airborne :uhoh:
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I understood it to be Air Traffic Control not Air Traffic Conditional? ATC are within their rights to tell pilots to go around if they have the equipment to alert them. And to stop take-offs if the situation so requires. So why pick and choose when you can and cannot intervene?
Ultimately pilots pay the price with their lives and ATC with their paperwork. This boils down to a pretty basic pilot error that could have been prevented by A) better pilots B) more assertive ATC. |
Originally Posted by BoeingDriver99
(Post 11600083)
I understood it to be Air Traffic Control not Air Traffic Conditional? ATC are within their rights to tell pilots to go around if they have the equipment to alert them. And to stop take-offs if the situation so requires. So why pick and choose when you can and cannot intervene?
Ultimately pilots pay the price with their lives and ATC with their paperwork. This boils down to a pretty basic pilot error that could have been prevented by A) better pilots B) more assertive ATC. |
Originally Posted by BoeingDriver99
(Post 11600083)
I understood it to be Air Traffic Control not Air Traffic Conditional? ATC are within their rights to tell pilots to go around if they have the equipment to alert them. And to stop take-offs if the situation so requires. So why pick and choose when you can and cannot intervene?
Ultimately pilots pay the price with their lives and ATC with their paperwork. This boils down to a pretty basic pilot error that could have been prevented by A) better pilots B) more assertive ATC. |
If they did request D5... woukd be interested to know what heading they had dialed... which runway they were expecting... any chance they've accidently prepared for the reciprocal and this is a gross error?
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Originally Posted by JumpJumpJump
(Post 11600099)
If they did request D5... would be interested to know what heading they had dialed... which runway they were expecting... any chance they've accidently prepared for the reciprocal and this is a gross error?
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So this might not be a bad rabbit hole to go down.
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