KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway
 

Reports of a Challenger radioing in while on approach saying both engines quit and could not make it. Crash landed on highway, hitting vehicles and/or wall and erupting in to a large fireball.

Video from pilot of plane that was next to land. Video Post

Video from car driving by Safety Network info page Link

Unverified reports say, 5 on board, three survivors.

https://www.flightaware.com/live/fli...730Z/KOSU/KAPF

https://winknews.com/2024/02/09/plan...ollier-county/

Rough transcript from LiveATC. Non-accident aircraft comms not included.

HJ823: Hop-a-jet 823 is with you on a right downwind for a 5-mile final ah runway 23

KAPF: Hop-a-jet 823, roger, make a right turn back toward the airport, [?] departure ahead Challenger jet, runway 23 cleared to land, wind 220 at 12, gust 16

HJ823: Alright, Challenger jet departing, we’re turning back towards the airport and cleared to land runway 23, Hop-a-jet 823

HJ823: OK, ah, Challenger, ah Hop-a-jet 823, lost both engines, emergency, making an emergency landing

KAPF: [?] got that emergency, cleared to land runway 23, is that Hop-a-jet 823?

HJ823: We’re cleared to land but we’re not going to make the runway, we’ve lost both engines.

Over 2,000 fpm descent half way through the base to final turn. The fire seems to indicate this was not fuel exhaustion.



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....42c111c48c.png

What the heck other than bad fuel or no fuel takes out both engines at the same time?

short of switching it off, not a lot
Where did it top up fuel last

Video of survivors evacuating the aircraft

Birds perhaps. Not suggesting that was the cause, just a possibility.

Looking at the airplane's pneumatic diagram, one way the engines are tied together is through the 10'th stage bleed manifold, but there is a check valve that should isolate them. A bad 10th stage bleed check valve could cause a compressor stall and engine flameout at low power settings when you start the APU, which could account for an engine failure in this phase of flight. Having 2 check valves on 2 different engines fail on the same flight? That seems extraordinary unlikely. It was a quick turnaround at OSU so they would not have had time to do any maintenance, so a common mode maintenance failure seems unlikely.

A similar issue (corroded 5'th stage check valve sticking open due to extended duration storage) was causing multiple in-flight engine shutdowns at top of descent on the 737NG after bunches of them were poorly stored at the beginning of COVID. It is complete pure luck that there were no dual engine flameouts. https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...pany-airplanes

Nah… quick quick turn in Columbus, respectfully I would seriously look at their fuel numbers for an out and back.
(12 years on 604/605 myself)

edit to add, I dont want to read too much into the flames.. remember there is always an amount of unusable fuel that remains so hard to say at this point

no, you dont transition the bleeds(its manually done in the 604/5) until APU is up and running and also switching 10ths off is approved for ops if you have no APU (limitation of pulling two bleed sources at same time off engine) if you want to use Anti-ice for takeoff or landing

Surprising to see that cars just pass the burning aircraft without stopping to offer help.

Glad to see at least one of the pax managed to escape with her hand luggage !!!

El G.

And via the baggage hold door non the less.. only option really on that side considering the angle and flames

Priorities. Gotta go DTO nearest lawyer’s office and commence suing the crew for the emotional distress.

Genuine Q - (generally speaking) are the fuel cut off switches protected by anything or just toggle switches? From prior experience - Hard to judge off Google images incase specific aircraft have had mods / STCs etc.

No toggle switches like the Global.. they are simply triggers on the back of the thrust levers that need to be pulled to go to cutoff.. hmm so you are thinking like that Falcon20 crew many years ago with worn latches and flamed both out when going back to idle?

Firstly, it's not an airliner with hundreds of passengers. Secondly there's no emergency slide involved. Thirdly on a private jet an item of hand luggage may well have been within easy reach. Natural human reaction to try and save your worldly goods, especially if they are right next to you. I saw nothing in that clip that would have impeded their escape. I'll now get flamed but I honestly think this is a slightly different scenario to a full airliner and it's human instinct. No cabin crew screaming at you to leave everything and get the heck out.

DEF?
https://www.ntsb.gov/advocacy/safety...nts/SA-079.pdf

Yeah I guess.. I’m not saying it happened, but I am wondering whether aircraft design would allow that to be a possibility.

The teardrop to the left and then back around to the right appears to to shown here. Looks reasonable. Whatever happened, happened fast, and perhaps when exiting the turn and lining up with final. A time when power would be reduced after the turn.

Just tickled my memory. I was PNF in BOS TCA IFR on approach to landing. Captain threw both AC master power and avionics (next to each other, non guarded) to off. This was out of the blue and for no reason. The entire panel and AC went dark. We obviously worked it out.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....3d9e804e5.jpeg

Yikes!
When I first heard of that I thought the airplanes were getting fueled with diesel, not that DEF was going in the jet fuel, presumably in the mistaken impression it was Prist or similar.
* IIRC diesel works fine until it gets cold and gels up, so filling the whole plane with it would be more likely to cause issues at altitude than back down in the warmer air.

not to mention / they showed discipline having to exit through the baggage compartment, past their luggage.

Judge not lest you be judged.
One of the survivors was the FA and she got the two pax out through the luggage compartment.
They would have never known that by themselves.

https://www.fox4now.com/naples/pilot...ash-identified

If the fuel were dangerously low, would the deceleration upon the approach, the turn, banking, flaps, wheels down, etc cause the fuel to slosh forward and away from the fuel pickups? This to explain the sudden loss of both engines. Perhaps the crew terribly calculated the fuel load due to few passengers and the reserve was miscalculated as a result. But then why would they ignore fuel warnings and land at any one of the 100's of Florida Alternates??

Low on fuel after a 2h12 minutes flight? Very unlikely. They would have told ATC from a fuel emergency and there are plenty of airports on their route. Somehow the dual engine failure came unexpected for the pilots until the last minutes.

Could it be some sort of core lock, I humble ask?

I knew personally the FO, feels silly saying Co pilot as he was a ultra experienced Captain 25000 hours plus, ex Us Airways A330 captain and ex Virgin America. He has flown so many types, last I heard from him he was on the MD80 and there is no one i would feel safer up there than him. RIP Ian a true family man and aviator until the end, see you down the road buddy.

Something must have gone bad and at very short notice, the rest of the flight looks normal. Prey to god it wasn’t low fuel, it seems on the base turn they powered up and there was nothing left to give .

`Collector Tank
 

The riddle here is what can cause both engines to fail, maybe simultaneously, and is considered a fuel starvation when in fact there was plenty of fuel in the tanks? I believe the answer would point to the collector tank. Small in capacity but is essential to enable the fuel to be delivered to each power-plant from any of the 4 other tanks, wings/fuselage or aux, and tail tank (which was already empty as it would normally be.

So who owned and maintained that aircraft? Hop-A-Jet states "leased aircraft". Thats not too unusual. Registered owner, in name, matches a North Carolina company under FAA imposed money fines. 6 digits. WAS THIS ALL LEGAL?

Sure it’s legal, why would it not be?
Lots of aircraft out there that are owned by a private owner under an LLC for instance then leased to a charter company.
The aircraft will require a conformity inspection and approved by the FAA to be added to the fleet.

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

The video shows #2 engine tailcone already burnt, am I correct? Whereas #1 engine looks normal.

Fuel icing?
 

There is a suggestion that fuel icing may have been at play here. 350 gallons uploaded in OSU but without anti ice agent. May or may not be a factor but a possibility... They flew down at FL400.

What is your source for that fuel quantity pls?

So my post regarding the legality of that trip should not be construed as a possible contributor to the tragic accident. That wasn’t not my intent. What I saw online regarding the ownership of that aircraft and the fact that there seems to be evidence of some significant FAA fines is a separate matter, if true. I am focused on the cause. I flew the 601-3A for about 7 years so I am recall the systems, to some degree. My theory is that they may have been aware that the collector tank was not getting fuel to it so in that way the engines would flame out. Only the FDR would know. There was a “calmness” in the crew call to the tower that “they would not make the runway”. That’s as far as anyone can or should go in this speculation. As anyone of us can agree on is that this real cause will be interesting. I am also sorry for the loss of two pilots this way.

I believe that to be from the post crash fire. My opinion.

Fuel heaters?

obviously not.. but look at bigger picture and short turnaround after repo up from Florida.. apart from a poster saying they uplifted 350 but who knows at this point.

Obviously an hour is sufficient time to refuel.
In range call to the FBO that you’ll be doing a quick turn and the fuel truck is waiting at your parking spot. Fuel is also cheaper in OSU then in FXE.

Frankly I give no significant conclusion to this information. Most likely it is or could be misdirected. This does not explain the crash. I am curious about this:

1. N823KD is registered to East Shore Aviation LLC but with a South Florida address.
2. East Shore Aviation LLC is also the name of a North Charleston, S.C., aviation company that was fined by the FAA a few years ago ($157,654).

This may or may not be associated. I don't know.

B2N2, you and I both call South Florida home and presumably you have had a career in somebody's cockpit. Stuff like this happens frequently, especially down here.

Again I don't draw any "accident scenario" based on that however when the Challenger (coincidental type) ran off the runway in KTEB some years ago the trail of ownership and operational authority was very convoluted.

Sympathies to the families of the pilots.