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Originally Posted by double_barrel
(Post 10551648)
Thanks, that's very helpful. And as you say, it goes a long way to explain the lethality of CO, I knew its binding to Hb was tenacious, but had no idea it was locked-in like that. I think I will take a look at the underlying biochemistry out of interest.
I am not an expert, but also curious about the reversibility of COHb binding. Wikipedia gives some clues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboxyhemoglobin COHb has a half-life in the blood of 4 to 6 hours. Supplemental oxygen takes advantage of Le Chatelier's principle to quicken the decomposition of carboxyhemoglobin back to hemoglobin: HbCO + O2 ⇌ Hb + CO + O2 ⇌ HbO2 + CO 1. At body temperature in a living being, CO poisoning is slowly reversible through the circulation. 2. The absence of oxygen and blood circulation, and/or low temperatures would "freeze" the binding process. |
Originally Posted by nonsense
(Post 10547308)
And yet so many people have died from CO in cars, on boats, without noticing anything else in time.
Empirically, your logic is wrong. People have left key less car engines running, but modern cars have cats, so not much smell. The few problems i have had with light aircraft gave me head aches which turned out to be faulty exhaust and a crank vent that wasn't blowing out board and a split in the scat hose to the windscreen de misters. All very smelly. |
I can assure readers that CO is a cockpit hazard at concentrations much less than are "noticeable" by smell. Detection requires an appropriate detector, Your nose will not provide adequate warning - mine didn't.
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I simply cant understand what part of the colourless odourless gas part of the Description of CO people on this forum have not got into their brains. Each year I see in the press tragic events from CO poisoning from gas stoves, central heating boilers and other combustion sources , there are a great number of regulations in the industrial and domestic environments, this reflects the danger that the authorities see CO poses to the users of such equipment simply because of the subtle way CO incapacitates it’s victims. Both the aircraft manufacturers and aviation authorities recognise the danger of CO and put in place regulation mitigate the risks . Yet with all this evidence some above think they will smell the CO and be able to something about is, perhaps the only comfort we can take from this attitude is these people will simply not know what killed them. |
Originally Posted by A and C
(Post 10553331)
I simply cant understand what part of the colourless odourless gas part of the Description of CO people on this forum have not got into their brains. Each year I see in the press tragic events from CO poisoning from gas stoves, central heating boilers and other combustion sources , there are a great number of regulations in the industrial and domestic environments, this reflects the danger that the authorities see CO poses to the users of such equipment simply because of the subtle way CO incapacitates it’s victims. Both the aircraft manufacturers and aviation authorities recognise the danger of CO and put in place regulation mitigate the risks . Yet with all this evidence some above think they will smell the CO and be able to something about is, perhaps the only comfort we can take from this attitude is these people will simply not know what killed them. Here is an extract from it:"Safety challenges For the 20 per cent of respondents who believe gas safety has worsened, eight times out of ten they say it’s because customers are getting gas work done on the cheap. Illegal gas fitters – people who work on gas who are not Gas Safe registered – and under-skilled engineers were given as key reasons by those who thought gas safety had worsened. Illegal gas fitters are believed to be cheaper, so consumers need to be aware of the risks they are taking to save money. A few training bodies mentioned that some training is less thorough, although not all think this is the case, and others cited under-skilled gas engineers. " The irony in this case is that the pilot was a heating engineer who one would have expected was well versed in the case of Gas Safety, but seems he may have succumbed to the effects of a faulty heater whilst conducting what appears to have been an illegal flight on the cheap one might say, rather than pay the going price charged by an organisation fully licensed and approved to do the job safely. |
Originally Posted by PDR1
(Post 10550358)
CO poisoning produces permanent damage to red blood cells - it's a signature which remains and can be identified even in a long-deceased body and it gives fairly precise values of the scale. CO poisoning is not just a matter of lack of oxygen (as happens with CO2) - it is actually a poisonous gas. CO "locks" the haemoglobin in the blood such that it can't take oxygen even when it's present. If you suffer CO poisoning beyond a certain level even getting you away from the CO and giving you 100% oxygen via a mask won't save you - you will die unless you are given a rapid and massive transfusion of red blood cells (which is rarely possible).
So the detection of CO poisoning in "a body that had been under seawater for so many days" is not in any way remarkable or strange. PDR
Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer
(Post 10550817)
There is evidence that sedentary smokers are less prone to hypoxia than fit non smokers.
I have no idea if that maps to CO poisoning, but I suppose it's at least hypothetically possible. G |
Originally Posted by BFM
(Post 10553634)
However, I'm not aware of any research into the natural degradation of carboxyhaemoglobin over time and under high pressure in an anaerobic environment, so while the measurement can be made accurately I'd be uncomfortable with the statement that it was a precise representation of the level at impact.
PDR |
Originally Posted by PDR1
(Post 10553644)
Papers on the subject are reference in the page I cited above.
PDR |
So has this aircraft been lifted from the sea yet?
And if not, why not. Also i noticed the CO detector in one of our aircraft has the name SleepSafe on it. Bit late if it changes whilst you are asleep. The electronic one i use in my camper is what needs to be fitted to all aircraft with exhaust heaters. They are fairly cheap. But would it be heard through noise cancelling headphones? Just ordered two with digital read out, less than £12. |
The latest AAIB bulletin featuring this accident is here https://assets.publishing.service.go...019_Lo_Res.pdf The AAIB published Special Bulletin S1/2019 on 25 February 20191 to give preliminary information on the investigation and general information about how aircraft registered in the USA may be operated between the UK and France. This Special Bulletin contains medical information relevant to the accident to highlight the implications of that information to the General Aviation community. Results of toxicology tests Toxicology tests on the blood of the passenger showed a carboxyhaemoglobin (COHb) saturation level of 58%. COHb is the combination product of carbon monoxide (CO) with haemoglobin, the oxygen-carrying protein molecule contained in red blood cells. CO is a colourless, odourless gas produced from the incomplete combustion of carbon-containing materials. It readily combines with haemoglobin in the blood, decreasing the carriage of oxygen and causing a direct effect on the performance of those parts of the body which rely on oxygen for proper function. A COHb level of 50% or above in an otherwise healthy individual is generally considered to be potentially fatal. In this type of aircraft, the cockpit is not separated from the cabin2 and it is considered likely that the pilot would also have been affected to some extent by exposure to CO. Symptoms following exposure to carbon monoxide Exposure to CO can lead to damage to the brain, heart and nervous system. The symptoms of CO poisoning worsen with an increasing percentage of COHb as detailed in Table 1. COHb level Symptoms Less than 10% None 20 to 30% Drowsiness, headache, slight increase in respiratory rate, dizziness 30 to 40% Impaired judgement, difficulty breathing, blurring of vision, bad headache, increasing drowsiness, stomach pain 40 to 50% Confusion, blurred vision, shortness of breath, pounding headache, vertigo, loss of coordination, chest pain, memory loss Over 50% Seizure, unconsciousness, heart attack Table 1 Symptoms of increasing levels of COHb It is clear from the symptoms that exposure to CO can reduce or inhibit a pilot’s ability to fly an aircraft depending on the level of that exposure. The AAIB is working with the aircraft and engine manufacturers and the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) in the USA to identify possible pathways through which CO might enter the cabin of this type of aircraft. Work is also continuing to investigate pertinent operational, technical, organisational and human factors which might have contributed to the accident. |
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
(Post 10568580)
The latest AAIB bulletin featuring this accident is here https://assets.publishing.service.go...019_Lo_Res.pdf
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Originally Posted by BigEndBob
(Post 10558235)
But would it be heard through noise cancelling headphones?
Definitely. Absolutely 100%. |
A large flashing light linked to a carbon monoxide detector might be a better idea. |
BBC breaking news - pair jailed for the Mortuary Photos of Sala. |
Emiliano Sala: Fifa rules Cardiff must pay first instalment of £5.3m to Nantes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49825166 |
Originally Posted by cats_five
(Post 10583281)
Emiliano Sala: Fifa rules Cardiff must pay first instalment of £5.3m to Nantes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49825166 |
Originally Posted by Teddy Robinson
(Post 10583341)
So what ? this is an aviation forum, not a football forum.
Q.E.D. |
Originally Posted by Hadley Rille
(Post 10583388)
A British business being so out of pocket will bring more pressure to bear on scrutiny of the arrangements made for the flight and, by extension, any future arrangements for such flights all of which is entirely aviation related.
Q.E.D. Insurance companies might assess this arena as not worth the risk |
I sincerely hope so, but have my doubts.
I suspect the majority of AOC holders have been banging their collective heads against the wall trying to stop this so called and badly named grey charter business. I sometimes wonder how many Pilots " Don't" know someone who is doing this. |
Originally Posted by The AvgasDinosaur
(Post 10549493)
I can’t help but wonder why, if all these ‘Air-Grey’ charters are being flown visibly from UK airfields the resident AOC holders have not done so. Or have they reported them and been ignored ? Several correspondents on here seem to be well aware of what’s been going on. Has it been reported and ignored or has it just been ignored? Be lucky David David |
I'm afraid it comes under the "all too difficult" heading at the CAA. I expect they have a pretty good idea who is doing this but realistically it is very hard to obtain sufficient proof to get a conviction. If they ramp-check an aircraft at a race meeting they can't detain passengers or question them and the pilot will simply say no money changed hands so it's a private flight. Who'se to say different?
Even in a case as high-profile as this the complex paper-trail of ownership seems to hve been extremely difficult to follow and if all the protagonists deny any knowledge or say it wasn't me, someone else organised it prosecution seems agonisingly slow and difficult. |
Originally Posted by meleagertoo
(Post 10584697)
I'm afraid it comes under the "all too difficult" heading at the CAA. I expect they have a pretty good idea who is doing this .........
As it is, there is another thread running about how active pilots gloss over the risks involved with GA when just talking to their loved ones - in case they get "grounded" by their families! If we pilots have difficulty justifying the risks..... Occasionally there are cases where prosecutions are successful but, sadly, usually after the event when the evidence is, ahem, planted in a field (as in the case of the Barton Birdwatchers)! As has been previously stated, I think the Insurers will be the ones to lead on this - not that a little matter such as the integrity of the insurance cover will overly worry those involved in such practices. What a mess! H 'n' H |
The 'charter' business was flourishing when I was learning to fly 55 years ago. I know of three fatal accidents involving such trips, one fortunately on his way to pick up his passengers (hence his need to fly into IMC containing a very large rock) another in which the pilot was killed but passenger escaped with serious injuries and the third in which both persons died on a photographic trip which went 'just a bit lower and slower' for a better picture.
I agree with Hot'n'High that insurance may be the key. People need to be told that life insurance policies associated with mortgages, businesses etc. do not cover private flights, the normal requirement being a multi-engined aircraft flown by a commercial pilot under an AOC. If you get killed, and Wingly and the like carry a greater risk, then your family will be left penniless. One such case has already been highlighted in this thread. It is possible to obtain this cover, as I did in our flying days, but the premium loading will be substantial to reflect the extra risk. |
Emiliano Sala family queries timing of carbon monoxide tests
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Any news on when the report will be out?
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From today's Jersey Evening Post ...
‘Our investigation is now at an advanced stage and we intend to publish our final report by the end of March 2020.’ |
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AAIB final report to be published on March 13th.
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BBC News - Emiliano Sala: No further action after manslaughter arrest
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51831150 |
Originally Posted by ak7274
(Post 10710065)
BBC News - Emiliano Sala: No further action after manslaughter arrest
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51831150 |
I wonder if any of it will explain why the other pilot abandoned the other guy to go alone.
And i think the AAIB are wrong not to lift the wreckage, unless they are covering something up. You could soon get some sub pirates to lift it. |
Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10710137)
I think that is a big hint that the operational irregularities will not be the cause of the accident.
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Extraordinary
So, after all of this time, money and effort NOTHING will happen.
What happened to the agent or person/company that 'hired' the aircraft and pilot? What happened to the aircraft owner(s)? These people were involved in an illegal operation and should surely be investigated and appropriate legal action taken. What is the point of this costly investigation if it results in no action being taken against any of the guilty parties? And what sort of closure has this whitewash provided for Sala's parents and other relatives? None whatsoever. I am completely baffled by this. |
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Thanks for the copy of the report.
Here is a quote:"Enforcement is challenging because it requires a large commitment of resources. It also requires the gathering of specific evidence against a pilot or broker which can be difficult to obtain. The Air Charter Association recommends specific steps52 that passengers can take before hiring an aircraft for a charter to verify that the flight will be legitimate. These include asking if the aircraft is licensed and asking to see an AOC and the insurance documents for the aircraft." Does the average pax nipping off to the Med for a bit of sunshine normally ask to see a company's AOC or the Captain's license? I think not. That is why we have regulatory controls that the public have trust in. I assume that Mr Sala would have thought the same. I would be astonished if the agent(s) booking this flight were unaware that this was a bit of 'an iffy operation' and of course would be reflected in the costs involved. If the hirer had gone to a kosher operation for a Citation say, or similar, the costs would have been dramatically higher, as they (the hirer) would have been well aware of. And what of the owners of the Piper? Can we seriously imagine that they were completely unaware of what 'their' aircraft was being used for? I am disappointed and saddened by the authority's approach and final report because I have always been very impressed by the CAA and its various departments that I have had to dealt with over the years. I do not believe that any of the people involved in the hire of this aircraft and pilot were unaware of its illegality. They should face the music |
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What is the point of this costly investigation if it results in no action being taken against any of the guilty parties? I am disappointed and saddened by the authority's approach and final report because I have always been very impressed by the CAA |
The AAIB just investigate the cause of the accident, one would assume to report on anything significant that might effect other aircraft's flight safety.
To that end the aircraft should have been pulled from the sea floor and at the least the exhaust tested to confirm or deny the CO2 theory. It just seems they are hiding something. It's then up to the CAA to investigate parties concerned as to the legalities of the flight, with the police then going i assume to cps for any prosecutions. And what of the other pilot, did he not feel a duty of care knowing the experience of the crash pilot. What was his reason for not flying the aircraft. I would suggest we will never be allowed to know. |
This reminds me of the FAA's culpability towards the MAX. The comparison to me is "peanuts for monkeys", insufficient funding for authorities such as the FAA and CAA means they don't check well enough. It s balancing the cost versus the risk and sometimes things go wrong but in aviation often at a human cost.
I would love to see the owner, operator, pilot and "fixer" of the charter brought to court. Even at the risk of not being convicted, I would hope such a public shaming would help reduce this outrage. I mean come on! A pilot flying illegally in multiple ways in a sub standard plane!? And then as a way of moving forward the AAIB suggesting the client checks the operators and pilots license!? The client will never be able to do this, he has to be able to rely on his "fixer". The pilot and planes licensing web is so complex that on this thread alone there were multiple debates about a UK license with a piggy back FAA license, with restrictions etc and what would be the correct interpretation. The client will never be able to do this, he has to be able to rely on the fixer. That fixer needs bringing to court along the others. The public deserves protection. The lack of outrage worries me. My two cents. |
Someone tried to save money. The transfer fee for Sala is reported at £15m If I had paid 15m for a person - I'd be sure to make sure they were transported with the greatest of care.
I suspect that this process of transporting players (who do no tlive near regional or hub airports) has been going on for some time and has, 'Always worked before'. |
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