|
Originally Posted by MPN11
(Post 10548155)
The 2 empty properties associated with the Keelys being used as a Registered Address adds a certain air of mystery! Dark forces at play here, methinks.
|
Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia
(Post 10546294)
No it doesn’t. The whole flight was illegal, CO poisoning doesn’t let anybody off the hook, from the statement by the engineer/airfield owner things may be even worse. An illegal flight in an aircraft that may have been known to have airworthiness problems. I truly hope that someone goes to prison for a very long time. Illegal CAT still goes on despite this sorry mess, reporting it achieves bugger all. This was a high profile accident, I know of at least 2 others, one with no injuries, one where just the pilot died. Hopefully Sala’s death may help shine a light on all the cowboys who think that what they do is acceptable practice. SND |
Flags of convenience are fine until something goes wrong. In this case it would be a miracle if the insurers pay out. N reg allows a lot of latitude in terms of where the buck stops. Added to the complicated registration/ trust scenario is a the fact that the USA allows UK based based aircraft to be registered via a tiny company in East Anglia. In most cases these aircraft will never again see the USA. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history Which is fine and dandy until we see a multi million pound accident such as this one. Who oversaw who in this tragic timeline? Pretty much no one. There is plenty of evidence out there that the aircraft was producing revenue for the beneficiaries of trust by transporting jockys to racecourses as well as the work it undertook with Cardiff City Football Club’s agent. No one rents their investment for nothing. All of this grey charter work was outside the control of the UK Civil Aviation Authority. UK road legislation only permits foreign cars to a maximum of twelve months before they have to be registered as being home based. That stops the scam of uninsured and no MOT cars being used here. A UK resident cannot use a foreign car unless they are based on the continent. (Soon to change with Brexit) These days most global shipping is registered in countries such as Panama and Liberia so that the crewing and operations are able to exploit cheap labour and lax regulation. Many defend the N register for private aircraft owners as it allows an easier route to aircraft modifications and flying rules. Add to that the fact it is also cheaper. I hope this accident will close the N reg lark in the UK for good and bring regulatory powers over all UK based aircraft back under the wing of the CAA. |
The reason for the legal requirements of flying public transport are to put in place the checks and balances that assure to the greatest degree posable that an accident won’t happen and this costs a considerable amount of money.
The reason for illegal public transport is to do things on the cheap by ignoring the rules put in place for safety. This case illustrates perfectly the result of such practices and it matters not the particular holes in the Swiss cheese that aligned to create the inevitable result. |
Agreed A and C. The reason for the difficult exam (the knowledge) London black cab drivers have to pass is they play by a clearly defined set of rules. On the other side of the fence are the minicabs and Ubers who are the Arthur Daleys of the taxi world. Few checks or regulation means you get what you pay for but these people sadly undermine the legal operators business model. If I was running an AOC operation I would be extremely angry to see cowboy pilots flying N reg aircraft on illegal charters that cannot be stopped by the CAA? |
Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10549182)
As Terence Keely is dead, it would have been extremely surprising if he had been in residence when the Daily Mail called at his mansion.
|
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
(Post 10549318)
Flags of convenience are fine until something goes wrong. In this case it would be a miracle if the insurers pay out. N reg allows a lot of latitude in terms of where the buck stops. Added to the complicated registration/ trust scenario is a the fact that the USA allows UK based based aircraft to be registered via a tiny company in East Anglia. In most cases these aircraft will never again see the USA. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history Which is fine and dandy until we see a multi million pound accident such as this one. Who oversaw who in this tragic timeline? Pretty much no one. There is plenty of evidence out there that the aircraft was producing revenue for the beneficiaries of trust by transporting jockys to racecourses as well as the work it undertook with Cardiff City Football Club’s agent. No one rents their investment for nothing. All of this grey charter work was outside the control of the UK Civil Aviation Authority. UK road legislation only permits foreign cars to a maximum of twelve months before they have to be registered as being home based. That stops the scam of uninsured and no MOT cars being used here. A UK resident cannot use a foreign car unless they are based on the continent. (Soon to change with Brexit) These days most global shipping is registered in countries such as Panama and Liberia so that the crewing and operations are able to exploit cheap labour and lax regulation. Many defend the N register for private aircraft owners as it allows an easier route to aircraft modifications and flying rules. Add to that the fact it is also cheaper. I hope this accident will close the N reg lark in the UK for good and bring regulatory powers over all UK based aircraft back under the wing of the CAA. A typical scenario might go like this. Sir/ Madam of UK company is doing well in business and fancies increasing social standing score and gets a PPL. Has a little chat with tame bean counter as to best way to make it tax efficient Bean counter says, well we`ve got to have a good look and s sorry about mentioning that dirty word, but we must have a good look and see about VAT. W`ve also got to show some revenue from it in the books and in case you decide to pull plug on company best it be owned by a trust, so no tax man and bailiff can get their filthy mitts on it Sir/Mam. Off goes Sir/Mam to find a chap around the club who knows about these things and hey presto here is the ideal solution , a N reg job registered to a US trust corporation. Now who would have thought some half wit would have lent the damn thing to another half wit who then let another mate borrow it who in turn it gave the keys to a heating engineer could fix its central heating as he was so keen on flying anyway and the whole lot ended up in a terrific mess. The whole thing is just so incredible, how can anyone blame such Sirs and Mams for such a string of unforseeable and unfortunate events, M`Lud. |
This is a bit like renting a car. You don’t know or care where the likes of Hertz,Sixt,Eurocar etc are based for tax or other reasons. Everything is fine until it all goes wrong. Trusts,limited companies etc all provide separation to allow the person who might be carrying the can to avoid liability. However if there are people in the middle not wise enough to think about the bigger picture they can lose everything. As I said earlier there are some complicated legal cases on the horizon in this one and the matter of the FAA register,the CAA regulator , trusts and insurance companies are going to be a key issue. |
Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10549196)
SND, whilst I could see the causal link between the death and hiring an unqualified pilot if the unqualified pilot lost control because the flight was way beyond his abilities, I can't see the causal link between hiring the unqualified pilot and death due to CO poisoning unless your allegation is that a qualified pilot would have identified the leak before death occurred or are you suggesting that the Aircraft Manager knew of the CO leak and allowed the flight to take place anyway or that he was so negligent in the maintenance of the aircraft that an accident was likely to occur?
I’ve spent a career in CAT operations watching cowboys taking the piss because they do it cheap, no one stops them and those of us with all the checks and balances in place lose business to these cheating s***s who laugh and lie their way out. While I feel sorry for the loss and publicity Ibbotson’s family have suffered I hope his death may finally mean someone grasps illegal CAT and the operators by the throat and squeezes, hard. Pilots are advertising helicopter sight seeing flights along the Thames, with 70 hours on their PPL and not knowing that for CAT a non-standard flight plan is required. It’s 20 years since I last flew a sightseeing flight, but I know what they mean to the real operators, At a UK Airport last week I met an elderly lady whose son had paid for her to use the aircraft and pilot he hires regularly to take the mother to meet a friend. Cocky bloke in his 4 seat single and his PPL charging for a charter. Fancy putting your mum’s safety in the hands of a couple of hundred hour PPL in iffy weather? Ignore CO poisoning, it had no more relevance than a mild cold in this case. The flight was illegal and Sala was killed by people prepared to take a risk for a few quid, and from information now coming out about airworthiness, or lack of It sounds worse than at first thought. I make no apology for my anger, I have to work my arse off to keep the staff employed and the aircraft paid for and then answer questions about how Sala died and are we safe. My passengers are, at a price, I suspect a lot of passengers in the UK now aren’t. I still await Grant Shapps response to how his “freeing up GA” has enhanced safety. SND |
Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia
(Post 10549411)
CO poisoning is almost impossible to detect until it’s nearly too late. However, there is no excuse, CO poisoning or not for an unqualified pilot carrying out this flight. Ibbotson knew he was unqualified, Henderson I suspect knew he was unqualified and an innocent life was lost. I’ve spent a career in CAT operations watching cowboys taking the piss because they do it cheap, no one stops them and those of us with all the checks and balances in place lose business to these cheating s***s who laugh and lie their way out. While I feel sorry for the loss and publicity Ibbotson’s family have suffered I hope his death may finally mean someone grasps illegal CAT and the operators by the throat and squeezes, hard. Pilots are advertising helicopter sight seeing flights along the Thames, with 70 hours on their PPL and not knowing that for CAT a non-standard flight plan is required. It’s 20 years since I last flew a sightseeing flight, but I know what they mean to the real operators, At a UK Airport last week I met an elderly lady whose son had paid for her to use the aircraft and pilot he hires regularly to take the mother to meet a friend. Cocky bloke in his 4 seat single and his PPL charging for a charter. Fancy putting your mum’s safety in the hands of a couple of hundred hour PPL in iffy weather? Ignore CO poisoning, it had no more relevance than a mild cold in this case. The flight was illegal and Sala was killed by people prepared to take a risk for a few quid, and from information now coming out about airworthiness, or lack of It sounds worse than at first thought. I make no apology for my anger, I have to work my arse off to keep the staff employed and the aircraft paid for and then answer questions about how Sala died and are we safe. My passengers are, at a price, I suspect a lot of passengers in the UK now aren’t. I still await Grant Shapps response to how his “freeing up GA” has enhanced safety. SND |
I second that SND |
Mike & Runway30; thank you both, and Runway30 if I seemed aggressive it definitely was not meant against you�� SND |
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
(Post 10549329)
The reason for the difficult exam (the knowledge) London black cab drivers have to pass is they play by a clearly defined set of rules. On the other side of the fence are the minicabs and Ubers who are the Arthur Daleys of the taxi world. Few checks or regulation means you get what you pay for ... I don't. I don't use London taxis. I'm not rich enough, and I have difficulty imagining who might be able to afford them (when not on expenses). |
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
(Post 10549329)
Agreed A and C. The reason for the difficult exam (the knowledge) London black cab drivers have to pass is they play by a clearly defined set of rules. On the other side of the fence are the minicabs and Ubers who are the Arthur Daleys of the taxi world. Few checks or regulation means you get what you pay for but these people sadly undermine the legal operators business model. If I was running an AOC operation I would be extremely angry to see cowboy pilots flying N reg aircraft on illegal charters that cannot be stopped by the CAA? Or have they reported them and been ignored ? Several correspondents on here seem to be well aware of what’s been going on. Has it been reported and ignored or has it just been ignored? Be lucky David |
cowboy pilots flying N reg aircraft on illegal charters that cannot be stopped by the CAA? The fact that an aircraft is on the N register does not exempt the pilot from the law or regulations of the country in which it is used. As regards the pilot it is the same. The rules applying to my FAA licence make that crystal clear: in fact it says that where the UK regulations differ from the FAA regs, the more restrictive regs apply. All that said: I agree entirely that those arranging or flying the type of illegal charter that this flight appears to have been should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and have exemplary penalties imposed whatever reg aircraft they use. |
Unfortunately the CAA is a rubber-toothed poodle when it comes to investigating, let alone prosecuting illegal ops, even when the prepetrators are AOC operators who already have Flight Ops Inspections and are thus readily investigable.
I personally know of one UK AOC holder that was chartering a King Air on a private C of A in Africa while advertising it as fully UK licenced and insured and their crew included a third 'ghost' pilot whose name was logged for all the (great many) hours over the legal maxima. One of their pilots was renowned for performing aerobatics to wow his female passengers. Indeed he was almost famous for it in the community they worked for. This was reported but the CAA decided it was 'too difficult and too far away to investigate'. I also had dealings with a UK scheduled airline that didn't allow Captains to write defects in tbe tech log, instead these were listed on the back of your met paperwork and left for the next guy to read, 3 pages of them on some of the fleet. Not one of the fleet of 5-6 aircraft was fit to fly in airways or in IMC due to defective deicing or radar and on some aircraft both. This could have been proven with 10 minutes work by a Flt Ops Inspector, but when reported nothing whatsoever was done despite their admitting it wasn't the first report of such chicanery they'd had filed. 10 years later I was still hearing of exactly the same going on in that company from its ex pilots. They even managed to have a wheels up landing with pax on a scheduled flight and never filed an accident report. And the CAA never did a thing despite that being reported too! Good luck hoping they'll do anything to stop illegal charters by PPLs or on the N reg. Pigs will fly first. |
snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.
|
Originally Posted by Camargue
(Post 10549886)
snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.
However this was a grey charter where the passenger had expressed misgivings about the state of the aircraft. He was an innocent party in this chain of events. The owner of a maintenance company has also remarked it needed a lot done to bring it up to a safe standard. Very few of us ever poke our noses in to other peoples business and instead turn a blind eye to something that may well be illegal. From what I understand the owner of the Malibu had assigned management and charter of the aircraft to DH. He in turn booked Ibbotson to fly the fatal flight. However the owner must take responsibility for the safety of those who flew in it. There are both criminal and civil actions on the horizon. One thing for sure is any insurance policy will be invalid. |
Originally Posted by Camargue
(Post 10549886)
snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.
|
Further to my original post about what a PPL student should do, on a lesson today I noticed the aircraft is fitted with a stick on CO detector (changing colour dot type). I think this is probably best, as you may not hear an alarm.
I will certainly be checking it more frequently going forward...... |
Originally Posted by Camargue
(Post 10549886)
snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.
I’d be interested to know just how CO poisoning could have been detected, at the reported levels in a body that had been under seawater for so many days. DI had no excuse, CO poisoning is no excuse. And the price was horrendous. SND |
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
(Post 10550005)
The owner of a maintenance company has also remarked it needed a lot done to bring it up to a safe standard |
Given the mention of the state of maintenance, was the aircraft even airworthy? Local organisation refused to release an aircraft (100 hourly) when owner pressed not to have certain work done. Owner relented, and paid.
|
Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia
(Post 10550112)
I’d be interested to know just how CO poisoning could have been detected, at the reported levels in a body that had been under seawater for so many days. So the detection of CO poisoning in "a body that had been under seawater for so many days" is not in any way remarkable or strange. PDR |
Originally Posted by PDR1
(Post 10550358)
CO poisoning produces permanent damage to red blood cells - it's a signature which remains and can be identified even in a long-deceased body and it gives fairly precise values of the scale. CO poisoning is not just a matter of lack of oxygen (as happens with CO2) - it is actually a poisonous gas. CO "locks" the haemoglobin in the blood such that it can't take oxygen even when it's present. If you suffer CO poisoning beyond a certain level even getting you away from the CO and giving you 100% oxygen via a mask won't save you - you will die unless you are given a rapid and massive transfusion of red blood cells (which is rarely possible).
So the detection of CO poisoning in "a body that had been under seawater for so many days" is not in any way remarkable or strange. PDR Be lucky David |
Originally Posted by The AvgasDinosaur
(Post 10550377)
However the time lapse from recovery (of victim) to discovery (of toxicity) does seem both remarkable and strange I.M.H.O. Be lucky David |
I doubt the delay was to the tests, just to the publication of the AAIB Special Bulletin that contained the results.
|
Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10550225)
Given the mention of the state of maintenance, was the aircraft even airworthy?.
The piece regarding your local aircraft is irrelevant. |
Originally Posted by PDR1
(Post 10550358)
CO poisoning produces permanent damage to red blood cells - it's a signature which remains and can be identified even in a long-deceased body and it gives fairly precise values of the scale. CO poisoning is not just a matter of lack of oxygen (as happens with CO2) - it is actually a poisonous gas. CO "locks" the haemoglobin in the blood such that it can't take oxygen even when it's present. If you suffer CO poisoning beyond a certain level even getting you away from the CO and giving you 100% oxygen via a mask won't save you - you will die unless you are given a rapid and massive transfusion of red blood cells (which is rarely possible).
So the detection of CO poisoning in "a body that had been under seawater for so many days" is not in any way remarkable or strange. PDR SND |
The most tragic cases of CO poisoniung usually come from campers in the UK. When camping a popular dining solution is to just fire up a disposable barbeque - it's easy, gives a nice charcoaled flavour and involves minimal washing up. But on a typical British camping holiday there is a very high probability that it will be either:
1. Hissing down with rain 2. Blowing a gale 3. Hissing down with horizontal rain Sadly some decide to use the babeque anyway. To do this they might tip up the sides of their awning/dining-shelter or even just bring the whole thing inside the tent - I've even heard people suggest that this allows the baberque to warm up the tent a bit. The unfortunate fact is that the charcoal burns underneath a layer of ash (the white bit) which resticts the flow of oxygen such that the almost pure carbon produces lots of carbon monoxide (colourless, odourless and deadly). Even in a drafty dining shelter the CO concentration can reach lethal levels very quickly - if the used disposable barbeque is left to burn out inside a tent you will have created a remarkably cost-effective gas chamber for ad hoc executions. So if nothing else, I would ask readers to take away the thought that barbeques are only ever outdoor things - only use in very well ventilated areas no matter hoiw inconvenient that wind may be! PDR |
Carbon monoxide poisoning is an extremely rare cause of aircraft fatalities in the UK. This aircraft had already flown for over an hour so what could have gone wrong? |
Any number of things - the two that immediately leap to mind being either a piece of corrosion in a heat-exchanger finally burning through to give a hole, or simply that the late night return flight was through cooler air so the cabin heather was turned up to a higher level (increating the amount of CO being pushed into the cabin). It's equally possible that the CO leak was present from the moment the engine started, but it too half an hour to build up to a fatal concentration.
The whole "it worked yesteday so it is strange that it broke today" argumnent that we hear so often is utterly inappropriate for complex systems - it assumes dice have a memory, which they don't (I checked). PDR |
Given that the pilot responded to ATC calls immediately prior to the crash, the claimed potentially fatal levels of carbon monoxide found in the blood may not be quite what they appear from a simple reading of the analytical report. The pilot being considerably less fit and much older than the passenger should have succumbed much more readily to the effects of carbon monoxide poisoning. Biological processes are capable of producing high levels of alcohol and other substances in the blood after death. There can be absolutely no doubt that carbon monoxide poisoning may have been a contributory factor in this incident, but the primary factors are still weather, an unqualified pilot, and an aged aircraft that had apparently not been maintained to the highest standards. Everything was being done on the cheap in order to save money. There's your cause! |
There is evidence that sedentary smokers are less prone to hypoxia than fit non smokers.
I have no idea if that maps to CO poisoning, but I suppose it's at least hypothetically possible. G |
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
(Post 10550606)
Carbon monoxide poisoning is an extremely rare cause of aircraft fatalities in the UK. This aircraft had already flown for over an hour so what could have gone wrong? The interesting one in this incident is yet again the one that relates to human factors. By that is meant what was it that placed this particular pilot and his passenger in that aircraft for that fateful flight. |
M.O.T
Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10550225)
Given the mention of the state of maintenance, was the aircraft even airworthy? Local organisation refused to release an aircraft (100 hourly) when owner pressed not to have certain work done. Owner relented, and paid.
Maintenance has started to become an issue for obvious reasons. My understanding is that from what Mr Penney has stated is that the aircraft was due an MOT at the end of the year, so a good guess is December. So other flights in the said aircraft could have taken place before the fatal night. i suppose my thoughts are: could this |
Originally Posted by PDR1
(Post 10550358)
CO poisoning produces permanent damage to red blood cells - it's a signature which remains and can be identified even in a long-deceased body and it gives fairly precise values of the scale. CO poisoning is not just a matter of lack of oxygen (as happens with CO2) - it is actually a poisonous gas. CO "locks" the haemoglobin in the blood such that it can't take oxygen even when it's present. If you suffer CO poisoning beyond a certain level even getting you away from the CO and giving you 100% oxygen via a mask won't save you - you will die unless you are given a rapid and massive transfusion of red blood cells (which is rarely possible).
So the detection of CO poisoning in "a body that had been under seawater for so many days" is not in any way remarkable or strange. PDR |
Originally Posted by Laguna123
(Post 10550963)
My first post as I have had an interest in this from the start and sat and watched what people have been saying. Maintenance has started to become an issue for obvious reasons. My understanding is that from what Mr Penney has stated is that the aircraft was due an MOT at the end of the year, so a good guess is December. So other flights in the said aircraft could have taken place before the fatal night. i suppose my thoughts are: could this Obviously, regular maintenance on an aircraft costs a lot of money. This is one of the reasons why real professional operators get very upset by amateurs undercutting them on price and therefore on safety. See the posts placed here by SND, for example. |
Originally Posted by double_barrel
(Post 10551280)
Cold you point me to some background on that? My understanding is that, as you say, CO binds very tightly to Hb blocking O2 attachment, but I wasn't aware of any detectable damage to the rbc's themselves. And even if that was the case, I would expect virtually every rbc to be lysed so long post mortem. I had assumed that CO would eventually dissociate from Hb after death because of all the changes that must completely screw-up the Hb molecule. i guess maybe some blood deep in the tissues would be preserved well enough for an analysis?
CO-Hb itself seems to be a remarkably robust and stable molecule which doesn't decay much in normal conditions, and barely decays at all when chilled, so a few days on the sea bed is unlikely to compromise the results significantly. There was a reason why I was aware of all this which I'm afraid I can't go into, but the subject of post-mortem determination of C) poisoning is a well published field because (I understand) CO-poisoning is the most common form of lethal poisoning in the western world. Most of the papers get very technical very quickly, but an easily digestable source would be this one: https://acutecaretesting.org/en/arti...em-co-oximetry You may be espcially interested in the section headed "STABILITY OF COHb WHEN MEASURED BY CO-OXIMETRY" (about 2/3ds of the way down) which provides the following: "A number of studies [23, 27, 28] have addressed the issue of stability of COHb as measured by CO-oximetry in stored blood samples. They have confirmed that COHb is remarkably stable. No change in CO-oximetrically determined COHb from baseline was noted in postmortem samples collected into heparin and stored for up to 3 years in a refrigerator [28]. Hampson [27] determined that there was no significant change from baseline in COHb for unrefrigerated samples mailed across the US and back again. And Kunsman et al[23] confirmed that stability of CO-oximetrically determined COHb was not dependant on the use of a particular anticoagulant/preservative combination." HTH, PDR |
Originally Posted by PDR1
(Post 10551582)
HTH, PDR |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 08:49. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.